|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:So hypothetically, if the US never sanctioned the nazis, would you support it as long as US BAD ? lol dude (the USA collaborated with tons of nazis btw)
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2019 23:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 04:04 |
|
|
Moridin920 posted:lol dude Yes as did the soviets and brits.
|
|
#
?
Mar 1, 2019 23:51
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Man you're right let's let 10 million people starve because of 1 bad apple Jesus loving christ
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 00:07
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:there isn't really any doubt that the government didn't have much interest in preparing for a world where oil was cheap, nor were they especially good at managing the oil industry that they had. but all of that would be survivable had oil prices stayed elevated. but when prices crashed, the country was unable to service its debt. printing money was a response to their inability to generate money, they didn't just do it for fun. You're kinda missing the context that the country is so dependent on oil in part because of the policies of the Chavista governments. Like, there would have been a downturn regardless, but we're talking about a house fire versus The Towering Inferno.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 02:49
|
|
|
seeing people here that were pro USA-Invasion was legit depressing as gently caress like we do not learn. we either cant or refuse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 03:20
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:You're kinda missing the context that the country is so dependent on oil in part because of the policies of the Chavista governments.  this is venezuela's gdp mapped against the world price of oil the country has always been dependent
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 03:26
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:
Yes? I'm talking matters of degrees here. Like, I'm dependent on my kidneys, but I can afford to lose one. Venezuela's economy was always dependent on oil prices, but they didn't used to be so dependent that a downturn would mean a complete economic collapse to the degree that we've seen.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 03:35
|
|
|
Mackers posted:seeing people here that were pro USA-Invasion was legit depressing as gently caress Im sorry you are against the liberation of a country with 33% of the population starving. But we cant let fascism subsidise global criminality any longer so maduro must go.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 03:36
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:Yes? I'm talking matters of degrees here. yes, because sanctions, instability, and mismanagement of the oil industry have turned the inferno into a bigger inferno. but don't kid yourself, this would be more than a downturn with or without maduro. oil prices are the primary driver of venezuela's problems. in other words, venezuela's problems would entirely disappear if oil prices were to spike tomorrow (assuming sanctions were lifted and they were able to get oil to the market)
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 03:37
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Im sorry you are against the liberation of a country with 33% of the population starving. But we cant let fascism subsidise global criminality any longer so maduro must go. Since you keep repeating throw 33% number, can you provide a source?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 03:43
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:yes, because sanctions, instability, and mismanagement of the oil industry have turned the inferno into a bigger inferno. but don't kid yourself, this would be more than a downturn with or without maduro. oil prices are the primary driver of venezuela's problems. in other words, venezuela's problems would entirely disappear if oil prices were to spike tomorrow (assuming sanctions were lifted and they were able to get oil to the market) I tend to disagree because Venezuela is far from the only petrostate out there. Plenty of countries have economies that are dependent on oil, but none of them have suffered the extreme collapse that Venezuela has suffered—and a big part of that is because of the actions that Chavez and Maduro took that made the economy more dependent on oil revenues (tying significant social programs directly to oil revenues, the mass expropriation of existing industries, economic policies like currency controls that made it more difficult to manufacture/import goods, etc.) while also strangling the industry through brain drain, lack of investment, mismanagement, and straight-up corruption (so much loving corruption). Removing sanctions and increased oil prices would help the economy in the short term, but it wouldn't really do anything to address the core problem that the PSUV is really bad at managing their country's economy (and also all the other stuff). Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 03:51 on Mar 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 03:47
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:Since you keep repeating throw 33% number, can you provide a source? Its gotten worse actually. https://www.derechos.org.ve/actualidad/informe-anual-9-de-cada-10-venezolanos-no-pudieron-pagar-su-alimentacion-diaria-durante-2017 The above is a study by a Venezuelan university. https://www.irinnews.org/special-report/2018/11/21/hunger-and-survival-venezuela
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 04:08
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Im sorry you are against the liberation of a country with 33% of the population starving. But we cant let fascism subsidise global criminality any longer so maduro must go. This will literally work on Americans. A million people will die. gently caress this. And there are people here who still think the US is gonna rape venezuela into a proper country. loving murder me Mackers fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Mar 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 04:10
|
|
|
Pharohman777 posted:Its gotten worse actually. Those numbers don’t say what you think they say. FAO, which the article references, places it at roughly 12% are undernourished, for reference in Southeast Asia that number is 17%. http://www.fao.org/3/I9553EN/i9553en.pdf
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 04:21
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Im sorry you are against the liberation of a country with 33% of the population starving. But we cant let fascism subsidise global criminality any longer so maduro must go. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 04:27
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:You're kinda missing the context that the country is so dependent on oil in part because of the policies of the Chavista governments. The country has been dependent on oil for well over half a century. Chavez and Maduro certainly didn't do anything to change that, but it's not like Venezuela had a diverse and robust economy before. Hell, a crippling economic collapse caused by crashing oil prices was the asphalt that paved Chavez's path to power in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 04:33
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:The country has been dependent on oil for well over half a century. Chavez and Maduro certainly didn't do anything to change that, but it's not like Venezuela had a diverse and robust economy before. Hell, a crippling economic collapse caused by crashing oil prices was the asphalt that paved Chavez's path to power in the first place. dude I literally replied to this exact response like five posts ago e: like I'm not trying to be snide, it's just frustrating to type out a post, do some very slight research to confirm (I looked up some other oil producing states, Kazakhstan pumps way more oil than I thought they did, turns out), do some follow up, and then receive a response as if I didn't do any of that on the very same page, you know? Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Mar 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 04:35
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:Those numbers don’t say what you think they say. The column for "Number of Severely Food-Insecure People" is empty for Venezuela in that document, so the number of people that are going hungry or worse is probably higher than 12%. I agree that if the food crisis in Venezuela was "just" 12% undernourished then it really wouldn't be a crisis at all, compared to other developing countries.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 04:48
|
|
|
qkkl posted:The column for "Number of Severely Food-Insecure People" is empty for Venezuela in that document, so the number of people that are going hungry or worse is probably higher than 12%. I agree that if the food crisis in Venezuela was "just" 12% undernourished then it really wouldn't be a crisis at all, compared to other developing countries. Yep Venezuela doesn't have as many people starving as a country like, say, North Korea. North Korea has even been in worse condition for longer and they have been full-blown Commies for longer. They threaten us daily with nukes but let's be Kim Jong Un's friend and start a coup in Venezuela. Makes sense.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 05:16
|
|
|
Neutrino posted:Yep Venezuela doesn't have as many people starving as a country like, say, North Korea. North Korea has even been in worse condition for longer and they have been full-blown Commies for longer. They threaten us daily with nukes but let's be Kim Jong Un's friend and start a coup in Venezuela. Makes sense. I mean I've said it before but Maduro could easily gain the backing of the US with three simple words: Trump Tower Caracas.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 05:37
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:dude I literally replied to this exact response like five posts ago How about you respond to what I actually said, instead of what you expected the response to be? Because if you think that what you said somehow contradicts what I said, then you clearly didn't do much beyond skimming it. You think you're the only one dropping effortposts that get completely ignored by all the people desperate to shill some ideology?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 05:45
|
|
|
qkkl posted:The column for "Number of Severely Food-Insecure People" is empty for Venezuela in that document, so the number of people that are going hungry or worse is probably higher than 12%. I agree that if the food crisis in Venezuela was "just" 12% undernourished then it really wouldn't be a crisis at all, compared to other developing countries. It is likely higher than malnutrition, but it underscores that this is an economic crisis rather than a humanitarian or political crisis. It is clear that there is still an infrastructure that is keeping the vast majority of the population nourished. Many are having trouble paying for food due to high inflation, high inflation which the US is doing its best to exacerbate and turn this into an actual famine. Their goal here is famine. The notion that it can't get much worse in Venezuela is clearly false. You only need to compare the numbers to Yemen to see how much worse it can get.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 06:06
|
|
|
Venezuela benefits from US involvement because 10 million people arr going up to 2 days withour eating and on average have lost 40 lbs. I know its crazy for the nazis socialist dicksucks in the room to comprehend a bad socialist country but sadly folks its happened again And the US didnt do it. Venezuelan national corruption and a fascist takeover did. Maduro proclaimed he would rule by decree. Hitler proclaimed he would rule by decree. fascist or socialist once a nazi lover always a nazi lover.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 06:10
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:How about you respond to what I actually said, instead of what you expected the response to be? Because if you think that what you said somehow contradicts what I said, then you clearly didn't do much beyond skimming it. You think you're the only one dropping effortposts that get completely ignored by all the people desperate to shill some ideology? So I read your post, and my interpretation was that you said that Venezuela has a history of economic instability linked to fluctuations in oil prices, and mentioned a specific pre-Chavez example. Which is true! And is, broadly speaking, the same point that Concerned Citizen made that I responded to—that Venezuela's economy has always been linked to oil prices to some extent. Which I also agreed with! My point, which is salient to both your posts, is that while the performance of the Venezuelan economy has always mirrored the price of oil to a degree, the specific actions and policies of Chavez and Maduro have served to shrink the non-oil economy and resulted in even greater dependence on oil revenues than had previously existed. And that's why I disagreed with the earlier point that an economic collapse of this scope was inevitable in some way—because, to the best of my knowledge, no other major oil producing country has suffered nearly the same kind of economic downturn or humanitarian crisis that Venezuela has. If you have a counterexample, I'd love to hear it! I'm not an expert, and most of my knowledge of Venezuelan issues has come from this thread in some way. And if I misread your post or argument in some way, I'm sorry. This thread is filled with enough awful sniping and bad-faith posting, and I want to try and at least have an honest discussion of the issues surrounding Venezuela rather than leave it to awful attempts by idiots to dunk on each other for imaginary internet points. e: like this post for instance WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Maduro proclaimed he would rule by decree. this is terrible please stop Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Mar 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 06:11
|
|
|
Acebuckeye13 posted:So I read your post, and my interpretation was that you said that Venezuela has a history of economic instability linked to fluctuations in oil prices, and mentioned a specific pre-Chavez example. Which is true! And is, broadly speaking, the same point that Concerned Citizen made that I responded to—that Venezuela's economy has always been linked to oil prices to some extent. Which I also agreed with! Sorry, I might not have been sufficiently clear on my stance. I agree that the policies of Chavez and Maduro have certainly increased Venezuela's vulnerability to oil price downturns. For example, oil made up 77% of Venezuelan exports in 1997, and by the mid-2010s that had increased to 96%. And yeah, that's certainly worse. But Venezuela was already horrendously vulnerable in 1997, to the point where it didn't have much room to get worse. And a lot of the most basic stories about the beginning of the current crisis seem like they're ripped straight from articles about the crisis of the late 80s: a sudden drop in oil prices gutting a highly corrupt government that hadn't prepared at all and instead chose to blow every last bit of those oil profits on expansive social programs (plus various crimes) instead of saving up for the inevitable downturn, leading to a massive wave of poverty and huge inflation. In 2015, it really did just look like a slightly worse version of the previous economic mega-meltdown. Three-digit inflation rates, a majority of the nation in severe poverty, and the GDP dropping by almost 10% were sadly not really unprecedented for Venezuela, and something of that magnitude probably was inevitable. Obviously, though, it didn't end there. It got worse and worse, and by 2017 it had radically departed from any historical trajectory Venezuela had ever been on. And it's that departure from the norm that I prefer to focus on. After all, a petrostate entering economic crisis when oil prices dip isn't unusual, and the economic numbers in 2015 and 2016 aren't that far out of line with pre-Chavez collapses - noticeably worse and noticeably faster, but that's to be expected since Venezuela's oil dependence had only increased. The sudden drastic increase in 2017, though, is an entirely new story. Now, to be clear, I'm not defending Chavez and Maduro by saying that Venezuela's economy was in a bad situation even before they took office. After all, with the previous crisis to use as an example, they really should've changed Venezuela's economic direction rather than leading the country down the exact same path. What's the point of these observations? Well, the main one is that Venezuela needs significant economic changes that the opposition isn't promising, or else more economic collapses will happen. Even if they're "only" as bad as the late-80s collapse, that wasn't much of a picnic. The lesson to take away from the last thirty years of history is that just switching out the ruling party isn't enough to banish the severe structural problems Venezuela is saddled with. Selling the country's infrastructure to foreign investors and begging for IMF loans and debt restructuring is just a flashback to the 90s. New ideas and a commitment to fundamental change are needed; just switching the shitheads in charge won't fix the economy. And my secondary point is that rather than being treated as a single event with a single cause, this current crisis is a complex series of events, with different stages and causes. The initial 2015 meltdown was inevitable, with the seeds for it sown long before Chavez's death, and the government certainly bears the primary responsibility for leaving the country that vulnerable. But things got so much worse so quickly in 2017 that I'm reluctant to even call it the same event.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 07:57
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Maduro proclaimed he would rule by decree. Do you seriously believe the Nazis were socialists because they had the word ‘socialist’ in their name? That is the same line of argument used by ahistorical chuds (usually American fascists) to say that all socialism is bad. Why should the USA, the same country that’s currently imprisoning Central and South American refugees in concentration camps, intervene in Venezuela? Why do you expect US intervention will have a positive impact on the people of Venezuela?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 08:54
|
|
|
Venomous posted:Do you seriously believe the Nazis were socialists because they had the word ‘socialist’ in their name? He's calling Maduro a Hitler-like dictator, not saying Nazis were socialists. I mean, I hope that's what he's trying to say. It's not a helpful point either way, though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 09:48
|
|
|
gently caress Chavez, i'm glad he died of rear end cancer, and i hope Maduro concedes in some form, because he is an incompetent ghost holding onto the poo poo anchor of his piece of poo poo mentor. gently caress socialism, I was born in Venezuela and i left before all dumb poo poo took off, don't label me because you don't like our current US President in 2016-2020 TYOOL
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 10:02
|
|
|
Fargin Icehole posted:gently caress Chavez, i'm glad he died of rear end cancer, and i hope Maduro concedes in some form, because he is an incompetent ghost holding onto the poo poo anchor of his piece of poo poo mentor. This seems helpful.  Why are you glad that Chavez died of rear end cancer? Also why do you blame socialism for Venezuela's problems?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 10:04
|
|
|
Fargin Icehole posted:gently caress socialism, I was born in Venezuela and i left before all dumb poo poo took off, don't label me because you don't like our current US President in 2016-2020 TYOOL Please define socialism, tia
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 10:25
|
|
|
Ah, No True Scotsman appears.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 10:30
|
|
|
if venezuela has socialism, why are captalists still the owners of the means of production?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 10:32
|
|
|
Rust Martialis posted:Ah, No True Scotsman appears. In what way was asking for their definition of socialism a No True Scotsman e: to be clear, I firmly believe state socialism =/= socialism Venomous fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Mar 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 10:40
|
|
|
Venezuela was, even under the most anti-communist-biased perspective possible, a market economy during Chavismo, and still was until a few months ago. Now with the crisis and sanctions there is not much of an economy left, but that's for another time. Now, a market economy with social programmes for the poor. Wish we had a definition for that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 10:52
|
|
|
Majorian posted:This seems helpful. I am glad that Hugo Chavez died (of loving rear end cancer) because of my late parent's hate for this guy and the ages of anti-chavez radio against the guy, it feels appropriate. I blame socialism on him because on their nation's problems because my late father left venezuela and got an opportunity from the United States for because You dumb mother loving priviliged motherfuckers don't know the meaning of giving people a chance in the slightest. In the end, no matter how positive you want to picture or structure pictures.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 11:01
|
|
|
Bob the Celt, belly grumbling, loudly exclaimed "I wish Rome would invade us and fix everything!"
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 11:05
|
|
|
Fargin Icehole posted:I am glad that Hugo Chavez died (of loving rear end cancer) because of my late parent's hate for this guy and the ages of anti-chavez radio against the guy, it feels appropriate. I can't tell if this is a joke post.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 12:38
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:It is likely higher than malnutrition, but it underscores that this is an economic crisis rather than a humanitarian or political crisis. There is a humanitarian crisis. Thats not up for debate. Stop listening to the propaganda. "By 2018, according to a report produced by three Venezuelan universities, only one in 10 Venezuelans could afford enough daily food." Thats a goddamn crisis. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Mar 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 13:34
|
|
|
zapplez posted:There is a humanitarian crisis. Thats not up for debate. Stop listening to the propaganda. i think he's aware it's a crisis, just he's trying to draw attention to the fact that the crisis is due to an economic downturn thanks to oil prices plummeting and has been severely worsened by heavy us sanctions from the us. i know you'd like to just ignore all that and blame the maduro government so that your solution of "support a coup" makes sense, but for the rest of us, the only reasonable approach to this crisis is by delivering aid through the UN and removing the US sanctions and accepting venezuelan refugees please stop getting upset he's not buying the propaganda you've bought into
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 13:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 04:04 |
|
|
Condiv posted:i think he's aware it's a crisis, just he's trying to draw attention to the fact that the crisis is due to an economic downturn thanks to oil prices plummeting and has been severely worsened by heavy us sanctions from the us. i know you'd like to just ignore all that and blame the maduro government so that your solution of "support a coup" makes sense, but for the rest of us, the only reasonable approach to this crisis is by delivering aid through the UN and removing the US sanctions and accepting venezuelan refugees A sensible post In DnD I'm as shocked as you
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 14:37
|
|