|
Concerned Citizen posted:in other words, venezuela's problems would entirely disappear if oil prices were to spike tomorrow (assuming sanctions were lifted and they were able to get oil to the market) If oil prices hit $100 tomorrow, sanctions disappeared, and they were able to get oil to market, you think that Venezuela's problems would entirely disappear? Lol you cannot possibly be serious.
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 15:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 10:22 |
|
|
Private Witt posted:If oil prices hit $100 tomorrow, sanctions disappeared, and they were able to get oil to market, you think that Venezuela's problems would entirely disappear? lol if your magic fix to this is a US invasion
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 15:11
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:If oil prices hit $100 tomorrow, sanctions disappeared, and they were able to get oil to market, you think that Venezuela's problems would entirely disappear? the hyperinflation and food/medicine shortages would end, yes. if venezuela can get dollars, it can import again and service its debts without printing money.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 15:35
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:If oil prices hit $100 tomorrow, sanctions disappeared, and they were able to get oil to market, you think that Venezuela's problems would entirely disappear? The country would still have severe institutional issues in need of sorting out but in the short-mid term it'd stop literally hemorrhaging to death.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:09
|
|
|
Francisco Toro from Caracas Chronicles has a thread on Twitter pointing out some of the changes that are needed to hold free, fair and transparent elections in Venezuela. I think the thread does a good job at highlighting all of the problems with the electoral system in the country, as well as driving home why the solution here isn't something that can be worked out overnight: https://twitter.com/QuicoToro/status/1101685876629880833
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:10
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:If oil prices hit $100 tomorrow, sanctions disappeared, and they were able to get oil to market, you think that Venezuela's problems would entirely disappear? The current crisis would likely disappear, though at this point the economic death spiral has gotten so bad that they'll likely require an infusion of outside cash to get things moving again. Venezuela's long-term economic vulnerability definitely wouldn't disappear...but it won't disappear if the opposition takes over either. Like, that's the whole loving problem. Sure, the current government isn't talking fundamental economic reform that'll totally replace Venezuela's brittle economy with something more sustainable. But the opposition isn't proposing that either, so the only economic benefit of switching out the government is that a pro-US regime will find it easier to get aid and economic relief from the US and its allies.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:20
|
|
|
zapplez posted:There is a humanitarian crisis. Thats not up for debate. Stop listening to the propaganda. Is the study you are citing the one which said the average Venezuelan lost 19lbs? I got news for you, that study is complete bonkers, it also presents polling data which 75% of people say they have at least a sufficient diet, 75% eat breakfast, 90% eat lunch, and 90% eat dinner. I bet if you did a poll in the US it would show similar results on those dietary points. And before you try to spin that statement, it’s a statement about how polling data can be unreliable, not that the US and Venezuela have similar hunger crisis. It’s like 16 pages, has no depth, and presents completely contradictory information. It’s a really bad ‘study’ picked up by Fox News and western propaganda outlets to justify all the poo poo the US is pulling.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:27
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:the hyperinflation and food/medicine shortages would end, yes. if venezuela can get dollars, it can import again and service its debts without printing money. Yeah, cool, so this is complete horse poo poo. Oil prices were >$100 in early 2014 (and had been around there for years). US sanctions didn't exist in 2014. So the scenario you describe already existed, and this is the fertile ground you say would end Venezuela's suffering, and yet....and yet, the opposite occurred. The Venezuelan economy had started to collapse, scarcity was taking hold, and huge inflation had begun. Not only was the economy collapsing, but when oil was at $100 a barrel and US sanctions didn't exist, this was also when they began killing and torturing their citizens in the protests. Let's circle back to the image you posted (but I guess didn't look at for more than 3 seconds). What happened first here? Did oil prices fall or did GDP collapse?  What has killed off the Venezuelan economy is not the over-reliance on oil (obviously, this has worsened the plight), but instead the large-scale theft perpetrated by a kleptocracy. Billions upon billions upon billions of dollars vacuum sucked out of the country, headed for Panama, the US, etc. Kleptoctracy predicated on a lie of "socialism" in order to steal more. Private Witt fucked around with this message at 16:34 on Mar 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:32
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:Yeah, cool, so this is complete horse poo poo. Again, if your solution to that is a US invasion you're a loving nazi sometimes economies have to modernize without a million deaths. Bonkers I know.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:36
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:Let's circle back to the image you posted (but I guess didn't look at for more than 3 seconds). What happened first here? Did oil prices fall or did GDP collapse? My eyes aren't as good as they used to be, but it looks to me like the economy froze the moment oil prices plateau'd, and tanked the moment they tilted down. Which is the kind of behavior you expect from markets: lack of growth is a crisis, and the expectation of negative growth is a death sentence.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:37
|
|
|
Conspiratiorist posted:My eyes aren't as good as they used to be, but it looks to me like the economy froze the moment oil prices plateau'd, and tanked the moment they tilted down. Notice how the behaviour is quite different in previous crashes, though.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:42
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:However, the Americans definitely noticed Venezuela's bad situation and took the opportunity to make it worse in hopes of driving the regime change they hoped for. Whole lotta posts in here are ignorant of recent Venezuelan history, and try to make "points" that are based upon made-up nonsense that sounds good. Let's briefly walk through recent Venezuelan history: -The US was the largest trading partner of Venezuela until a month ago. -We knew that billions were being funneled out of Venezuela with the blessing and Chavez and then Maduro, with some if it being funneled to people living in the US. -It was obvious that the regime was in deep poo poo way before 2015. -It was obvious that the leaders were stealing way before 2015. -It was obvious that Chavez hated us, and we hated Chavez. Given all of that, were there sanctions? Nope. The US didn't lift a sanctions finger until 2015, when Maduro began murdering and torturing protesters, and the ONLY fingers that the US lifted was putting sanctions on those they alleged to be responsible for that violence. It was not until Maduro had mostly transitioned to a dictatorship (the 2017 sanctions) and fully transitioned to a dictatorship (the 2019 sanctions) that the US put more pressing sanctions on the country to stop doing business with it. You are seeing a country collapse more or less on its own. Actually, scratch that, the financial geniuses in China and Russia are helping to prop up Maduro in order to spread some hegemony, so I guess they both get an assist on the collapse. Not sure they were quite aware of how quickly Maduro would "...and it's gone!" their money. Let me ask a question, though: has it crossed your mind that the actions of Venezuela's largest trading partner to try to (unsuccessfully) prevent the transition of Venezuela from a democracy to a brutal dictatorship actually did slow down the suffering? I don't know the answer to that myself, but it certainly seems possible. Guessing that is a possibility that is anathema to your Venezuelan-ignorant hot take on US involvement, though!
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:50
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:Yeah, cool, so this is complete horse poo poo. the point of the picture was to illustrate venezuela's longstanding dependence on oil. as for 2013/2014 - well, when oil prices stay the same but your output falls, inflation takes hold and the economy shrinks. venezuela had problems prior to sanctions and oil prices collapsing. but it went from downturn to crisis because output continue to fall and also oil prices were slashed to $30. and crisis will become catastrophe as the death penalty sanctions take hold this year quote:What has killed off the Venezuelan economy is not the over-reliance on oil (obviously, this has worsened the plight), but instead the large-scale theft perpetrated by a kleptocracy. Billions upon billions upon billions of dollars vacuum sucked out of the country, headed for Panama, the US, etc. Kleptoctracy predicated on a lie of "socialism" in order to steal more. this is completely wrong. there would be a crisis even if no one ever stole anything, it's not possible to steal stuff at the scale necessary to put a dent in the current economic situation. and, uh, the world would probably notice if $100b was just injected into the banking system from venezuela. you can't actually hide that much money.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 16:56
|
|
|
You can still destroy the village to save the village by literally doing nothing and watching it burn.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:06
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:Whole lotta posts in here are ignorant of recent Venezuelan history, and try to make "points" that are based upon made-up nonsense that sounds good. we have made it harder for Venezuelans to buy food because we care so much about them is certainly a way to try to spin it, yes man, just wait until we can start showing them our affection more directly
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:09
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:this is completely wrong. there would be a crisis even if no one ever stole anything, it's not possible to steal stuff at the scale necessary to put a dent in the current economic situation. and, uh, the world would probably notice if $100b was just injected into the banking system from venezuela. you can't actually hide that much money. It's like most smears that Americans uses against their enemies, first they stole a few million, tomorrow maduro and his cronies will have looted at least half a trillion. Straight from same old manufacturing consent playbook that's been used at this point for almost a century: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WGVcwLQm8w
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:14
|
|
|
Concerned Citizen posted:the point of the picture was to illustrate venezuela's longstanding dependence on oil. as for 2013/2014 - well, when oil prices stay the same but your output falls, inflation takes hold and the economy shrinks. venezuela had problems prior to sanctions and oil prices collapsing. but it went from downturn to crisis because output continue to fall and also oil prices were slashed to $30. and crisis will become catastrophe as the death penalty sanctions take hold this year Output did not fall in 2013 and 2014. Yet again, reality is the opposite of your posts. Concerned Citizen posted:this is completely wrong. there would be a crisis even if no one ever stole anything, it's not possible to steal stuff at the scale necessary to put a dent in the current economic situation. and, uh, the world would probably notice if $100b was just injected into the banking system from venezuela. you can't actually hide that much money. The world has noticed, but you haven't. And you're right, it would be difficult to hide very large sums of money stolen from a country. Which is why so many haven't successfully hid it... Off the top of my head: -The Panama Papers offered a glance into how much was being stolen. -This guy received a BILLION in bribes: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-corruption/venezuelas-former-treasurer-took-1-billion-in-bribes-u-s-prosecutors-idUSKCN1NP1K1 -Here's another BILLION stolen: https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article215493015.html The amount of money that has been stolen is unimaginably large, so large that the term for these criminals has its own Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boliburgues%C3%ADa And remember, Maduro taking over INCREASED the rate of stealing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:20
|
|
|
Socialism in 1932 Socialism in 2019  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Socialism in 1932 That is some good trolling, that image is from the Bengali famine in 1943 when Churchill tried to genocide them
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:27
|
|
|
The other pic is Yemen IIRC
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:30
|
|
|
Both of those are actually examples of the effects of imperialism, oops
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:38
|
|
|
I wish people in favour of a coup could just admit it and say "I think the US has the right to control other nations and bring them under our heel. Through force or other means, nations must do what the US wants, as is the USA's right as the global empire." It would at least get some points for being honest. Because its either a believe in the imperial sovereignty of the US over others, or just uncritically falling for the same propaganda used Every. Single. Time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:42
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:Whole lotta posts in here are ignorant of recent Venezuelan history, and try to make "points" that are based upon made-up nonsense that sounds good. If the country's biggest trading partner puts severe economic sanctions on the country in order to cut off trade with that country, that sounds like it would seriously worsen the ongoing economic crisis to me? The problem here is that you're mixing up two unrelated things. You keep switching between the democratic status of the country and the economic status of the country. Yes, the US imposed sanctions during the 2015 unrest and ramped up sanctions after the 2017 election. But Venezuela was already in clear economic trouble in 2015, which was spiraling into a historic economic crisis by 2017, so slapping it with more sanctions is obviously going to make matters even worse. After all, that's exactly what sanctions are meant to do: force a change in government policy by imposing economic hardship. If Venezuela's largest trading partner tries to punish the Venezuelan government's policies by imposing economic suffering on Venezuela, then it's probably fair to say they're ramping up the suffering, because ten million percent inflation and massive food shortages is way worse than a few bloody crackdowns. You're haphazardly mixing up the US's democracy-spreading propaganda rhetoric with the economic tragedy that's currently befallen Venezuela, and it ends up as a complete mess.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:49
|
|
|
Tom Guycot posted:I wish people in favour of a coup could just admit it and say "I think the US has the right to control other nations and bring them under our heel. Through force or other means, nations must do what the US wants, as is the USA's right as the global empire." It would at least get some points for being honest. Just a quick note that you have it backwards: the people in favor of a "coup" are the ones obliquely defending Maduro's military dictatorship and blaming the US non-stop. Venezuelans have been struggling to bring back democracy to their country for years now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:52
|
|
|
WAR CRIME GIGOLO posted:Trolling Jesus Christ 
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:53
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:If Venezuela's largest trading partner tries to punish the Venezuelan government's policies by imposing economic suffering on Venezuela, then it's probably fair to say they're ramping up the suffering, because ten million percent inflation and massive food shortages is way worse than a few bloody crackdowns. You're haphazardly mixing up the US's democracy-spreading propaganda rhetoric with the economic tragedy that's currently befallen Venezuela, and it ends up as a complete mess. None of which were caused by sanctions, because they began way before there were any sanctions even remotely capable of causing such an effect. To put it short, the Venezuelan government's policies are to blame, both in that the policies actively worked to cause and exacerbate the crisis and because for years they've denied there even was a crisis and to a large extent still do, see people both here and on twitter ocassionally suggesting there is no food crisis or that it is way overblown. Harry Potter on Ice posted:Whats up with war crime gigolo? Quite the rap sheet He's a troll. In general they seem to be pretty welcome in this thread. Though he's one of the few anti-Maduro ones, but he seems more into straight up lunacy than anything else. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Mar 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:54
|
|
|
Whats up with war crime gigolo? Quite the rap sheet
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:55
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:Just a quick note that you have it backwards: the people in favor of a "coup" are the ones obliquely defending Maduro's military dictatorship and blaming the US non-stop. Nah I had it right, that double think you're pushing is never going to take hold. Whatever Maduro's problems, whats going on is an attempted coup.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 17:57
|
|
|
Tom Guycot posted:Nah I had it right, that double think you're pushing is never going to take hold. Whatever Maduro's problems, whats going on is an attempted coup. Can you explain how this is an attempted coup? For that matter can you explain how Maduro did not commit a coup by stripping the representative branch of power, appointing the military backing him to run key government positions, and ignoring the equivalent of an impeachment?
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:07
|
|
|
CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Western "journalist" claiming she was attacked by a pro-maduro mob and was posting from a stranger's phone. Edit: Sorry, thought I was quote-posting in a different thread in a different forum.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:12
|
|
|
Tom Guycot posted:Nah I had it right, that double think you're pushing is never going to take hold. Whatever Maduro's problems, whats going on is an attempted coup. One of us is taking the side of the Venezuelan people and the democracies of the world, and the other is taking the side of a military dictator backed by other autocracies. That might shed a little light on which one of us "right." And bear in mind that this fictional "coup" that you're so terrified of is....peaceful new elections! That are actually free and fair. And the real "coup" that you insist doesn't exist...killed 4 protesters a week ago, and is starving out the country to enrich themselves and keep their hold on power. Maybe mix in a little newspaper reading into your daily dosage of brainwashing propaganda; it might enlighten you a bit.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:14
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:And bear in mind that this fictional "coup" that you're so terrified of is....peaceful new elections! That are actually free and fair. So it's a fictional coup, but also a good coup with peaceful aims...
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:17
|
|
|
Venomous posted:Jesus Christ weak
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:17
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:One of us is taking the side of the Venezuelan people and the democracies of the world, and the other is taking the side of a military dictator backed by other autocracies. That might shed a little light on which one of us "right." Ah yes famous defenders of democracy, Trump, Abrams, Bolsonaro, and Netanyahu.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:17
|
|
|
The Monarch posted:So it's a fictional coup, but also a good coup with peaceful aims... It's not a coup at all. It is attempting to follow the Venezuelan Constitution. Here's a spoiler alert: Guaido probably wouldn't even be the MUD candidate for President! Wow, what a coup!
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:19
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:One of us is taking the side of the Venezuelan people and the democracies of the world, and the other is taking the side of a military dictator backed by other autocracies. That might shed a little light on which one of us "right." "Peaceful new elections"! "Free and fair"! LMAO
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:19
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:None of which were caused by sanctions, because they began way before there were any sanctions even remotely capable of causing such an effect. They were not exclusively caused by sanctions, no, but sanctions made them worse. Who the gently caress looks at a country with 200% inflation and rising and thinks to themselves "gee, what that country really needs to make everything better is economic sanctions from their biggest trading partner"? Someone motivated exclusively by altruistic concern for the Venezuelan people, I'm sure.  
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:23
|
|
|
Presenting Nipples posted:Ah yes famous defenders of democracy, Trump, Abrams, Bolsonaro, and Netanyahu. You forgot Obama, Trudeau and a whole host of others, but yes, it seems the Venezuelan people are guilty by association, as so ordered by Presenting Nipples. Whereas the saintly Maduro has allied his violent regime with a murderer's row of dipshit oppressors responsible for a global panoply of repression, but this does not merit a mention.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:30
|
|
|
Private Witt posted:You forgot Obama, Trudeau and a whole host of others, but yes, it seems the Venezuelan people are guilty by association, as so ordered by Presenting Nipples. The ‘Venezuelan People’ are not homogenous. There is quite clearly still strong support for the PSUV as evidenced by huge rallies and the fact that they’ve won nearly every election for the past 20 years. The opposition has boycotted elections because they don’t want to lose, so they want to utilize fascist forces to eradicate the PSUV, this is how US backed coups always go. Guaido is the one who is aligning himself with Trump, Abrams, Bolsonaro, Obama, et al. It isn’t the Venezuelan people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 10:22 |
|
|
Private Witt posted:You forgot Obama, Trudeau and a whole host of others, but yes, it seems the Venezuelan people are guilty by association, as so ordered by Presenting Nipples. you'd have to be really, really bad to come off as worse than Maduro. by the way, friend. what did the US Special Envoy to Venezuela do in Guatemala. just, you know. because we're mentioning important things, about how much we care about human rights.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2019 18:37
|
|