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Bogus Adventure posted:Frankly, I wish I was traipsing all around Ferelden and Orlais with Morrigan rather than the shithead mages I get in Inquisition. Dorian is a preening pissant, and Vivienne is a terrible human being. the inter-mage party banter in DAI is so good, I love it when you have all three in the party and the other 2 dunk mercilessly on Solas's aesthetic. The philosophy/politics stuff is good too but lol "unwashed apostate hobo"
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Mar 1, 2019 19:33
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Stroop There It Is posted:but this is why they're excellent????? To each their own, but I loving hated the DAI companions. If I wasn't going for the "good" ending, I would have told most of them to gently caress off.
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Mar 1, 2019 19:39
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NikkolasKing posted:I'm not willing to lose Alistair just so Loghain can die five minutes later. That's cool but you can tell it doesn't reflect the overall makeup of players because the majority of people played humans - at least according to Bioware on their forums! Like with Mass Effect I bet if you asked on reddit you'd get a big mix of classes but they already said something like 70% played male human soldiers.
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Mar 1, 2019 19:39
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I usually save Loghain and install Alistair as king. Also Loghain is not justified doing what he does in Origins but you understand him a little more if you play Return to Ostagar and read the notes between Celene/Cailan. Cailan was going to marry Celene which means not only does Anora get dumped but also Ferelden would presumably have become a subject of Orlais in such an arrangement. Given how hard Loghain fought to free Ferelden originally it's little wonder he flips his poo poo and abandons Cailan when Cailan is planning to sell out both Anora and Ferelden to Orlais. The flipside of that is Anora is a power hungry piece of poo poo and maybe some type of lasting peace between Ferelden and Orlais could have been a good thing even if it meant uniting under one banner. But given how much of a goof Cailan is it's easy to imagine Ferelden getting abused badly in such an arrangement.
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Mar 1, 2019 19:47
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Bogus Adventure posted:Also, gently caress Loghain. As naive as Cailan might be, Loghain was willing to plunge Ferelden into a civil war or let it get overrun by the loving Darkspawn because he hated Orlais. He declared the Grey Wardens traitors, let his buddy Arl Howe torture the gently caress out of innocent Ferelden citizens, and risked a civil war during a Blight. gently caress him, gently caress him hard, he sucks and good riddance. Agreed. The funny thing is, I liked Loghain in my first two runs but hated him in my third. When you execute him in front of Anora, it's pretty tragic. He accepts his punishment and you see a glimmer of the honorable man he once was. It's also killing a father in front of his daughter and that sucks. But if you spare him? He's a bitter piece of poo poo and apparently learned nothing. Return to Ostagar is the loving worst. It's bad enough he advocates throwing Cailan's corpse to the wolves but he's already murdered the poor kid so that indignity is almost tame. But this... Loghain: All I remember is a fool's death and a hard choice. I'd make the same again. Wynne: Even knowing all that you know now, Loghain Mac Tir? Loghain: Even so. Is the height of awfulness.
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Mar 1, 2019 19:50
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This is why I like Loghain killing the Archdemon and dying in the process. He gives Ferelden a symbol to rally around while also removing a very dangerous element from the political equation. Alistair still being alive is optional.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:02
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Not every symbol has to be based on lies, for gently caress's sake.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:09
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Bogus Adventure posted:Not every symbol has to be based on lies, for gently caress's sake. It's Dragon Age. Everything's based on lies.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:11
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NikkolasKing posted:Agreed. Is it though? The army was outnumbered and even if Loghain had charged there's no guarantee that his army doesn't also get destroyed.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:13
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Ginette Reno posted:Is it though? The army was outnumbered and even if Loghain had charged there's no guarantee that his army doesn't also get destroyed. That said, at that point in the story he already had Jowan infiltrate Arl Eamon's court with the intention of poisoning the Arl. So he was a fuckhead who was planning some sort of treason well before Cailan got himself killed. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Mar 1, 2019 |
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Mar 1, 2019 20:28
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Raygereio posted:Yeah. The story portrays it as villainous, but Loghain not getting his army slaughtered in the prologue is his one good move. By the time the beacon had been lit, the Wardens & Cailan's forces were completely overrun. Yeah, but isn't one of the reasons the beacon takes so long to light that Loghain left the tower open so Darkspawn could get in? It was never going to be an easy fight, but Loghain did everything he could to make sure it would fail.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:34
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Bogus Adventure posted:To each their own, but I loving hated the DAI companions. If I wasn't going for the "good" ending, I would have told most of them to gently caress off. The party banter in DA:I is easily my favorite of any game, and really is the main way you see their relationships with each other building and their reactions to stuff happening in the world. It's a big problem that you only see a fraction of it if you had the banter bug or if you don't spend much time exploring.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:36
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Stroop There It Is posted:Haha that's fine, I can see why people would dislike them. TBH I think the DA:I companions are up there with the ME2 ones as my favorites of any game--they're all very memorable for me and actually quite well-written for the most part, imo... even Sera. Once you get past her incredibly lovely introduction, she's an internally consistent, actually kind of interesting character (who happens to be generally unfunny, irritating, and frustrating as gently caress). I think they could've done a bit more to make Bull more interesting on the surface, too, cuz a lot of the stuff that makes him interesting to me is in banter. Fair dues. The intraparty banter is really good, but it's their conversations with you that frustrated me the most. They have good moments, like reconciling Dorian with his father, doing what you can to help Vivienne's love, and even some conversations about cookies with Sera. However, for the most part they were my least favorite group of companions. I did like Cole, Iron Bull (and especially the insight he gave for making sure you knew everyone in the Inquisition), and Blackwall. I like Varric as well, but I don't feel like he counts as he's a carryover companion from DA2, and I was pretty happy with most of the companions in that game. I just miss characters like Aveline, Isabella, and Alistair. Cassandra gets close to Aveline, but she doesn't have Aveline's sense of humor.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:44
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Bogus Adventure posted:Yeah, but isn't one of the reasons the beacon takes so long to light that Loghain left the tower open so Darkspawn could get in? Loghain intentionally completely botching the Battle of Ostagar never felt right to me. Loghain's characterization is a bit inconsistent throughout DA:O, but one of the things that is always fixed is that he wants to Ferelden to be secure. And needlessly throwing half his army away doesn't really fit with that.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:46
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Raygereio posted:I always thought the Darkspawn broke through whatever was securing the Tower of Ishal because everyone in command (except maybe Duncan) thought it wasn't a full Blight and underestimated the Darkspawn's full numbers. And certainly nobody expected the Archdemon to be around directing darkspawn to possible flanking position. I believe it's implied in Return to Ostagar that Loghain intentionally left the Tower of Ishal vulnerable to the Darkspawn and that he knew they were tunneling under it but basically let it happen. Even if he did, I do still think that Battle was unlikely to be won and Loghain calling his army off was the correct decision. In a hypothetical scenario where Loghain's plan is executed perfectly they're still heavily outnumbered by the Darkspawn and probably lose.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:50
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Loghain wants nothing more than the sweet release of death, and it is your responsibility as the protagonist of these games to deny him again and again.
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Mar 1, 2019 20:51
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I was having so much fun playing DAI that I started thinking, "You know what would be even more fun? DAO!" So now I am playing through the original as a city elf berserker that hates humans. Good fun.
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Mar 2, 2019 01:37
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Cythereal posted:Oh please. The Right Choice is letting Loghain die killing the Archdemon, getting rid of the jerk while also giving Ferelden a martyr to rally around. The best choice is actually martyring yourself on the Archdemon after telling both Alistair and Morrigan to gently caress off, forcing Loghain to live out the rest of his shortened life in a never-ending fight that is probably futile and if he survives it ends in madness anyway. The only competent contender for the throne ends up in charge of Ferelden, and Loghain doesn't get to ride off into the sunset pretending to be a hero. quote:Morrigan is a top choice for the worst character Bioware's ever made. I can think of at least half a dozen Dragon Age characters that are far more obnoxious than Morrigan (she still stinks, don't get me wrong) and let's not even mention Andromeda or the low points of ME3.
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Mar 2, 2019 02:12
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Look, I would listen to Simon Templeton read the phone book, so Loghain always gets to live also, he's my warden's father-in-law, don't want to make thanksgiving awkward
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Mar 2, 2019 02:59
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Yeah, how do you people resist keeping Loghain alive? Such a lovely voice. Also, people. The Hero of Ferelden had a voice. It was "Angry Lady 2", the one that says "Can I get you a ladder so you can get off my back?" every fifteen seconds.
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Mar 2, 2019 03:46
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I really liked the DA:I companions too, Bioware's done well with the companions in all three games when it comes down to it. And if they do stop making games it'll be sad to lose that facet of it.
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Mar 2, 2019 10:19
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:Look, I would listen to Simon Templeton read the phone book, so Loghain always gets to live 
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Mar 2, 2019 10:31
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Doctor Reynolds posted:Yeah, how do you people resist keeping Loghain alive? Such a lovely voice. My third or fourth playthrough was going to be an angry mage, pissed at the templars and also at Wynne for supporting their abusive bullshit. I didn't make it out of the origin prelude. That one phrase, over and over again, became absolutely infuriating.
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Mar 3, 2019 04:02
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I don't remember the specifics of Loghain's anime betrayal but I do remember thinking Caillan was a dumb jock idiot so I'm glad of it.
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Mar 3, 2019 11:56
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exquisite tea posted:I don't remember the specifics of Loghain's anime betrayal but I do remember thinking Caillan was a dumb jock idiot so I'm glad of it. He was more like a large child. Too sweet to live. It’s been a while since I played DAO but I don’t remember the battle being so hopeless that withdrawing was a smart move? Duncan and Cailan were in bad shape, yeah, but I thought that was by design, they were bait to draw the dark spawn into a trap, loghain just didn’t spring it.
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Mar 3, 2019 17:40
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exquisite tea posted:Loghain wants nothing more than the sweet release of death, and it is your responsibility as the protagonist of these games to deny him again and again. That is true. But the sacrifice of Funny!Hawke is too much. That said, if he appears in DA4, I will consider retconning that choice.
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Mar 3, 2019 17:53
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Also, wasn't the entire reason that things looked remotely dire on the field because of the Darkspawn attacking the signal tower? It takes longer for the Warden and Alistair to even light the signal for Loghain's army to attack, which he then ignores.
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Mar 3, 2019 18:05
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Ainsley McTree posted:He was more like a large child. Too sweet to live. That’s what Loghain’s excuse is and what the quartermaster in Inquisition says but I’m pretty sure you’re supposed to think it’s bullshit.
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Mar 3, 2019 21:01
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So I love Cailan a lot and I made a post about why.quote:A character I've loved ever since I first played Origins was the late King Cailan. While not a victim of quite as much hate as major characters like Anders or Sera, he also gets a really unfair reputation in the fandom. TL;dr: Cailan is confident for the sake of his men, he vows to fix the alienage and punish Howe, he is happy to volunteer his services to the Grey Wardens to stop a Blight, he is the only reason Ferelden wasn't raped to death. Well, him and Flemeth. Also the entire battle strategy at Ostagar was specifically Loghain's. If it failed and there was no hope for victory, it's his fault.
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Mar 3, 2019 21:20
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Generic American posted:Also, wasn't the entire reason that things looked remotely dire on the field because of the Darkspawn attacking the signal tower? It takes longer for the Warden and Alistair to even light the signal for Loghain's army to attack, which he then ignores. Yes but it's implied in Return to Ostagar that Loghain knew about the Darkspawn tunneling under the Tower of Ishal and let it happen iirc. My read on it is that Loghain wasn't necessarily wrong about that battle being unwinnable. The Darkspawn outnumbered them by a lot. Part of the reason the battle was unwinnable though is because of Loghain's pride. He refused to allow Orlesian forces to support them in the battle because he was afraid they'd use that as an excuse to try to gain power in Ferelden. Loghain was also suspicious about Cailan dumping Anora to marry Celene. Anora had no kids and was possibly barren, and Cailan had other reasons to abandon her including the possibility of building a permanent alliance between Orlais/Ferelden. Cailan's letters that you read during Return to Ostagar strongly hint at this being his plan. So was the battle unwinnable? I think yes it was, but Loghain took extra measures to make sure it was. He obviously abandoned the battle plan but he let the Darkspawn take over the Tower of Ishal more easily than maybe they otherwise would have, and he refused to allow Orelsian reinforcements to aid them. If Loghain had charged, they probably still lose. They were so outnumbered, and there were only a few Wardens there.
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Mar 3, 2019 21:27
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Ginette Reno posted:Yes but it's implied in Return to Ostagar that Loghain knew about the Darkspawn tunneling under the Tower of Ishal and let it happen iirc. It's been a long time for me but I seem to remember basically everyone in the war council trying to get Cailan to wait for reinforcements to improve chances of success but he kept thinking the wardens were magic instead of just darkspawn detectors.
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Mar 3, 2019 22:37
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Shugojin posted:It's been a long time for me but I seem to remember basically everyone in the war council trying to get Cailan to wait for reinforcements to improve chances of success but he kept thinking the wardens were magic instead of just darkspawn detectors. Duncan wanted to wait for reinforcements but Loghain wanted no part of it. I think but for Loghain that Cailan might have been talked into it.
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Mar 3, 2019 22:40
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Ginette Reno posted:Duncan wanted to wait for reinforcements but Loghain wanted no part of it. I think but for Loghain that Cailan might have been talked into it. I really like that there's no clear way to interpret Loghain in that cutscene. You can see him as a scheming bastard who is using Cailan's desire for glory in battle to manipulate him. Or as a tired man who is trying the best he can.
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Mar 3, 2019 23:02
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Ginette Reno posted:Yes but it's implied in Return to Ostagar that Loghain knew about the Darkspawn tunneling under the Tower of Ishal and let it happen iirc. Oh, I do remember that. My point was more that things looking bad on the field for Cailan and Duncan weren't necessarily because it was a stupid plan and they charged straight into a meatgrinder, but that they were forced to hold out for longer than they ever planned to, because we only see them again after the signal is finally lit well behind schedule.
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Mar 4, 2019 03:31
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Raygereio posted:You can see him as a scheming bastard who is using Cailan's desire for glory in battle to manipulate him. Or as a tired man who is trying the best he can. Solas says as much when you talk to him about it in Inquisition, so call it a retcon but I think now it's up in the air if Loghain planned to betray Cailan or if it was a hard decision to retreat from a battle that became un-winnable SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 06:44
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SgtSteel91 posted:Solas says as much when you talk to him about it in Inquisition, so call it a retcon but I think now it's up in the air if Loghain planned to betray Cailan or if it was a hard decision to retreat from a battle that became un-winnable He says the fade shows both sides as correct depending on whose dreams he's experiencing IIRC I like that Ostagar is kept somewhat ambiguous even if Logain had ill intentions, it's a nice touch considering the series generally beats you over the head with the morality of it all.
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Mar 4, 2019 07:06
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i think the whole "Spare Loghain" thing would have worked better if you were told how to kill the archdemon before you fought him. it doesn't make much sense to spare him without that knowledge/return to orgamar, even if hardened Alistair/Grey warden Loghain is objectively the best ending. Roobanguy fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 07:43
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Roobanguy posted:i think the whole "Spare Loghain" thing would have worked better if you were told how to kill the archdemon before you fought him. You're told repeatedly that Grey Wardens are necessary to end the Blight, I guess it's up to you to believe that or not before Riordan tells you the specifics. Also while we're on the subject I want to applaud past-Bioware for having the guts to make their standard sassy-boy companion that everyone's supposed to love turn out to be a huge selfish piece of poo poo. Alistair's tantrum when you decide not to kill Loghain is fantastic. Loghain is certainly a villain, but at least he'd only doom Ferelden because of a personal grudge by accident.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:55
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Alistair's not wrong, though? There's no reason to think Logain would stay loyal to whatever Grey Warden oath after he intentionally betrayed his people several times over. And as long as he's hardened Alistair and not dumbfuck Alistair he still goes along with the plan for the good of the country, he just refuses to personally travel with you. I mean I still make the choice every time unless I'm setting up the princess-consort ending because Logain owns but in the context of everything else his reaction is justified.
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Mar 4, 2019 17:51
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Wolfsheim posted:Alistair's not wrong, though? There's no reason to think Logain would stay loyal to whatever Grey Warden oath after he intentionally betrayed his people several times over. And as long as he's hardened Alistair and not dumbfuck Alistair he still goes along with the plan for the good of the country, he just refuses to personally travel with you. Alistair is extremely wrong. If you didn't 'harden' him he abandons the Wardens and Ferelden to face the Blight without him, when his mere presence as a Grey Warden could potentially save the world. Nothing about that is justified.
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Mar 4, 2019 18:01
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