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Judakel posted:US intervention is bad. Actually I believe in the government needing to start accepting as much aid as possible. And for the removal of the PSUV which have been robbing and starving people for years.
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Mar 4, 2019 03:26
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Absent the food crisis, does Maduro's heavy handed political tactics deserve international pressure to resign? If so, why him and not any other dictator (Erdogan, MBS, Orban, Duterte etc)? If Venezuela had the food crisis but no political fuckery, same question. Deserving of a questionably legal change backed by international forces?
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Mar 4, 2019 03:27
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brugroffil posted:Absent the food crisis, does Maduro's heavy handed political tactics deserve international pressure to resign? If so, why him and not any other dictator (Erdogan, MBS, Orban, Duterte etc)? It's more the constitutional crisis he initiated, which resulted in a very noisy alternative government lobbying for international assistance. Most of those others don't have someone else with a fairly reasonable claim and a fair amount of in-country backing (they can draw big crowds, at least) contesting their legitimacy. If the coup against Erdogan had bogged down into a stalemate rather than being crushed, you'd probably see a similar situation.
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Mar 4, 2019 03:32
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brugroffil posted:Absent the food crisis, does Maduro's heavy handed political tactics deserve international pressure to resign? If so, why him and not any other dictator (Erdogan, MBS, Orban, Duterte etc)? If the majority of the citizenship of any dictatorship says they are in crisis and want aid or backing for a free and fair election, yes the rich countries should help.
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Mar 4, 2019 03:39
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zapplez posted:If the majority of the citizenship of any dictatorship says they are in crisis and want aid or backing for a free and fair election, yes the rich countries should help. can't wait for us to fuckin seal team six Viktor Orban, or is he on the wrong end of the paper bag test
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Mar 4, 2019 04:39
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EdithUpwards posted:
What exactly are you accusing me of doing? I'm just sick of people in this thread constantly trying to re-litigate the cold war and use it to deny agency to people who are absolutely being oppressed by a dictatorship, all because US=BAD. MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 04:58 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 04:52
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Darth Walrus posted:It's more the constitutional crisis he initiated, which resulted in a very noisy alternative government lobbying for international assistance. Most of those others don't have someone else with a fairly reasonable claim and a fair amount of in-country backing (they can draw big crowds, at least) contesting their legitimacy. If the coup against Erdogan had bogged down into a stalemate rather than being crushed, you'd probably see a similar situation. Yeah, its the complete and utter neutering of the national assembly after the opposition got a supermajority that's the root of the constitutional crisis. And the opposition has a large amount of in-country backing by virtue of the fact a supermajority was elected. Pharohman777 fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 04:54
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Pharohman777 posted:Yeah, its the complete and utter neutering of the national assembly after the opposition got a supermajority that's the root of the constitutional crisis. And that was in 2015. It takes a staggering amount of ignorance on the current situation in Venezuela to think the Maduro government is even remotely competitive in a clean election nowadays.
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Mar 4, 2019 06:12
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Pharohman777 posted:Yeah, its the complete and utter neutering of the national assembly after the opposition got a supermajority that's the root of the constitutional crisis. yeah, they thought that, and then they decided to proclaim themselves Actually The Real Government of Venezuela in the assumption the people who supported them would charge into the streets to force the hated Maduro government out. but for some reason, they did not trust the guy with everyone's favorite home improvement entrepreneur behind him enough to do that. which takes us neatly to the current policy of "maybe we can starve them into liking us."
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Mar 4, 2019 06:22
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Pharohman777 posted:So you actually believe that Maduro's government has legitimacy, even after everything documented in the op? Do you believe that the US has a right to invade and overthrow any government that lacks legitimacy? Because that's the only way to interpret this sudden change of subject you've made. Discendo Vox posted:We've been over the constitutional legitimacy of the legislature more than ten times at this point. We've quoted the relevant articles at you. The OP has confirmed it multiple times. Your counterarguments are "nuh uh" and bringing up the US again. The problem is that you keep conflating totally unrelated things. If the current government is legitimate, it's not okay for the US to invade Venezuela. If the current government is NOT legitimate, then it's still not okay for the US to invade Venezuela. So stop responding to "the US shouldn't invade Venezuela" with unrelated tangents about legitimacy like you think it has any bearing at all on what you're responding to. Pharohman777 posted:Trying to compare the Venezuelan protests where death squads hunt down protesters afterwards and live ammunition has been used multiple times; to the french protests is just insane. If just massacring a bunch of innocent civilian protesters was enough to get sanctioned by the US, we probably wouldn't be besties with Egypt anymore. And that was an actual loving military coup removing the democratically elected government at gunpoint, which even Maduro hasn't outright done (yet).
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Mar 4, 2019 07:44
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brugroffil posted:Are there people itt who genuinely believe the US interests here are humanitarian and genuinely concerned about liberal democracy? You bet. zapplez posted:Actually I believe in the government needing to start accepting as much aid as possible. And for the removal of the PSUV which have been robbing and starving people for years. That aid should be given to the UN, who can then deliver it to the country. Under no circumstances can a US operation be trusted.
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Mar 4, 2019 07:44
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zapplez posted:If the majority of the citizenship of any dictatorship says they are in crisis and want aid or backing for a free and fair election, yes the rich countries should help. Blockading, instigating a civil war in, bombing, or invading a country do not count as 'help'
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Mar 4, 2019 08:18
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420 Gank Mid posted:Blockading, instigating a civil war in, bombing, or invading a country do not count as 'help' Let's hope none of the above happens, then? Hopefully the current aid blockade by Maduro is ended.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:27
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The blockade is already happening, in hope of instigating the civil war. Also there is one thing I can say about a discussion I am not interested in having, since I'm getting flashbacks back to Lybia and Syria with a bunch of IRL debates I've had, is that ultimately your stance on these kinds of things depends on your view of international relations, and by that I mean what are your theoretical explanations for its mechanisms and epistemic assumptions that underline them. Ultimately, it seems to me that interventionists fall in the field of having a world with a more or less 'good' side, ie western liberal democracies and a 'bad' side, ie the autocracies of the world, and that IR is as much about preservation of state interests as it is about promoting general welfare, so it makes sense that liberal states should intervene in others' internal affairs to promote the common good. I do not subscribe to that view, and in my view states, who only have fiduciary duties, if any, to their own citizenry, are definitely not looking out for anybody else when they act in the international arena, and any good they might be promoting will be entirely by accident. If you assume that states act exclusively for selfish reasons then it is pretty much impossible to recommend external interference, unless the situation is so dire as to warrant it. I would say active ongoing genocide, as happened in Rwanda. My point is here, that I'm seeing that usual split when it comes to these political questions, and I think everyone will be arguing in circles forever about legitimate governments (lol) and the OP, when actually their disagreement goes much deeper and rests on the question of whether and when other states are entitled to enmesh themselves in a state's internal dispute.
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Mar 4, 2019 08:39
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The thing is, there is already a justification for other states to get involved: Venezuela's internal dispute is no longer internal anymore. All the refugees fleeing Venezuela for surrounding nations have had a serious impact on health and social services in the regions bordering Venezuela. Maduro refusied humanitarian aid for years and years, and the people he refused to allow food and medicine to get to got up and left. Pharohman777 fucked around with this message at 09:48 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 09:45
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Ahh yes, an invasion is sure to fix the refugee problem. Wait, this isn't the thermonuclear takes thread, what is going on??
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Mar 4, 2019 09:56
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Truga posted:Ahh yes, an invasion is sure to fix the refugee problem. Other countries getting involved in Venezuela does not equal war, you know? Diplomatic efforts, aid relief, sanctions, those are other ways countries involve themselves in Venezuela.
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Mar 4, 2019 10:06
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Rust Martialis posted:Let's hope none of the above happens, then? Why would Maduro let rope into his country?
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Mar 4, 2019 10:16
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Sanctions sure are a way to end the refugee crisis in Venezuela, then.
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Mar 4, 2019 10:21
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Pharohman777 posted:Other countries getting involved in Venezuela does not equal war, you know? The current diplomatic efforts and sanctions are railroading the country into an even bigger refugee crisis and a civil war between the two ruling class factions, which will then be used as an excuse for USA intervention, as they do.
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Mar 4, 2019 10:45
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Rust Martialis posted:Let's hope none of the above happens, then? Venezuela is accepting aid from independent international organizations and countries not trying to stage a coup of their government
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Mar 4, 2019 10:45
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420 Gank Mid posted:Venezuela is accepting aid from independent international organizations and countries not trying to stage a coup of their government Still not a coup, sorry. The National Assembly is acting constitutionally under the Chavez constitution. Ironic, really.
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Mar 4, 2019 11:11
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420 Gank Mid posted:Blockading, instigating a civil war in, bombing, or invading a country do not count as 'help' Yeah re-read what I said, because I didn't say any of those things. Venezuela needs a free and fair election. Hopefully Maduro smartens up and lets that happen before things get worse for his citizens. They've already been robbed and starved so much.
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Mar 4, 2019 13:37
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Truga posted:The current diplomatic efforts and sanctions are railroading the country into an even bigger refugee crisis and a civil war between the two ruling class factions, which will then be used as an excuse for USA intervention, as they do. Please tell me who the two ruling class factions are, tia.
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Mar 4, 2019 13:40
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the fash and the naz
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Mar 4, 2019 13:41
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Sanctions are violence
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Mar 4, 2019 14:18
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Truga posted:the fash and the naz So you don't know.
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Mar 4, 2019 14:24
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:So you don't know.
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Mar 4, 2019 14:26
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zapplez posted:Venezuela needs a free and fair election. Hopefully Maduro smartens up and lets that happen before things get worse for his citizens. They've already been robbed and starved so much. "Free and fair" elections will make hungry people and poor people rich again, just like they do in every other bourgeois democracy right?
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Mar 4, 2019 15:20
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Truga posted:Oh, I do. The fash maduro and the nazi guaido. Guaido doesn't even run anything. How is he part of the ruling class. The only ruling class left in the country is Maduro and his circle of friends, who have been robbing the country blind for years and destroying the chance at recovery through sheer incompetence. Supporting the status quo is supporting fascism. If there even was a middle or upper class that didnt flee the country long ago, all of their wealth has been erased by the hyper inflation anyways. This isn't America. This isn't sorta rich vs super rich. This is starving citizenry vs Maduro and close friends. edit: Thats one of the biggest problem of this thread is food-secure, wealthy, educated white people trying to compare Venezuela to how they think a rich western country should be run. It's not cute to be poor in a country where you have no real medicare, there are no food banks, and you are literally starving. This isn't Sweden and it ain't the USA. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 15:23
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:"Free and fair" elections will make hungry people and poor people rich again, just like they do in every other bourgeois democracy right? Uhh, the richest overall population of people and the healthiest and best fed people all come from countries that have free elections. The countries with best quality of living, freedom from unfair prosecution, rehabilitative laws, support of LGBT, good welfare, good healthcare, etc are all free voting countries with less government corruption.
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Mar 4, 2019 15:28
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zapplez posted:Uhh, the richest overall population of people and the healthiest and best fed people all come from countries that have free elections. The countries with best quality of living, freedom from unfair prosecution, rehabilitative laws, support of LGBT, good welfare, good healthcare, etc are all free voting countries with less government corruption. these same countries don't have the greatest track record in "exporting" said freedom and wealth though, and often support all sorts of corrupt and despotic regimes for a variety of reasons. I think most of the anti-interventionists itt would agree that a secure liberal democracy with a robust social welfare state is A Good Thing, we're just extremely skeptical that it'll come at the hands of the IMF or the US. btw I wonder what role the US State Department is playing in this, given that it was pretty thoroughly gutted over the past couple of years.
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Mar 4, 2019 15:35
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zapplez posted:Uhh, the richest overall population of people and the healthiest and best fed people all come from countries that have free elections. The countries with best quality of living, freedom from unfair prosecution, rehabilitative laws, support of LGBT, good welfare, good healthcare, etc are all free voting countries with less government corruption. just ask the good people of Guatemala and El Salvador. not the Nicaraguans or Hondurans though. they elected the wrong people. so we needed to punish them.
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Mar 4, 2019 15:42
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Has Madura tried asking nicely for sanctions relief?
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Mar 4, 2019 15:43
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zapplez posted:Uhh, the richest overall population of people and the healthiest and best fed people all come from countries that have free elections. The countries with best quality of living, freedom from unfair prosecution, rehabilitative laws, support of LGBT, good welfare, good healthcare, etc are all free voting countries with less government corruption. These counties massacred the global south for three centuries, exploited labor, and extracted all material wealth. Elections have nothing to do “prosperity”. The prosperity comes through exploitation.
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Mar 4, 2019 15:43
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zapplez posted:Guaido doesn't even run anything. How is he part of the ruling class. He's an elected politian how is that not the ruling class lmfao. Just because he lost power and is now struggling to take it back by courting nazis in neighbouring and imperialist countries doesn't suddenly make him a prole. zapplez posted:This isn't America. zapplez posted:This isn't sorta rich vs super rich. You're absolutely right, it's the extremely poor proletariat vs. the corrupt capitalist ruling class.
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Mar 4, 2019 15:44
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:just ask the good people of Guatemala and El Salvador. Do you think instead Venezuela should strive to keep the government corrupt and not have free elections?
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Mar 4, 2019 16:16
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Presenting Nipples posted:These counties massacred the global south for three centuries, exploited labor, and extracted all material wealth. Fair elections have an immense impact on the life of the citizenry. To think elections don't matter is a pretty bleak look at government. There might not be any great governments, but there sure are some good ones, and the current one in Venezuela is terrible.
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Mar 4, 2019 16:18
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zapplez posted:Fair elections have an immense impact on the life of the citizenry. To think elections don't matter is a pretty bleak look at government. There might not be any great governments, but there sure are some good ones, and the current one in Venezuela is terrible. Fair elections is a red herring, Egypt elected a Muslim Brotherhood government that got couped and replaced by another military regime with US support. Liberals like to carp about fair elections until someone like Corbyn, Allende, or Chavez gets elected, then they go straight to CIA misadventure.
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Mar 4, 2019 16:22
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Free and fair elections are not a guarantee against systemic disenfranchisement and unjust distribution of resources designed to exclude, whether formally or informally, entire societal subgroups from the political process. Pre-Chavez VZ ranked very well on electoral fairness, nevertheless a huge portion of the population straight-up had their voice unheard and 0 representation in Congress.
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Mar 4, 2019 16:22
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