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Freezer posted:Could you explain why, for us the under-informed? You're greenlighting civil causes of action for anyone who owned nationalized property against anyone who can be said to have profited from said property. That's thousands and thousands of lawsuits, each one taking years and years. It's going to kick off an interminable legal process. This thing we call "nationalization," by the way, is the same thing we call eminent domain. Virtually every sovereign has the right to seize property with compensation. Here's how compensation for nationalized property works in every other case this has ever happened: the two governments negotiate the payments. Two parties. This is far more reasonable, more efficient, and more feasible than a bazillion civil suits. Unfortunately, the United States has refused to negotiate with Cuba.
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Mar 4, 2019 19:59
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Singapore, America's favorite dictatorship and money laundocracy in SE Asia, for one. Thats great. So out of the like 50 or so countries with a decent standard of living, about 2 or 3 are dictatorships. I wonder why that is. I am blown away that I have to even argue with tankies on why when the government is literally robbing its citizens and leaving them starving like what is happening in Venezuela, is change absolutely necessary and good.
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Mar 4, 2019 20:44
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Jose posted:Well to start with you need the opposition to allow in the requested UN election observers Thats a great start. Do you believe the last elections held in 2018 were fair?
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Mar 4, 2019 20:46
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zapplez posted:Thats great. So out of the like 50 or so countries with a decent standard of living, about 2 or 3 are dictatorships. I wonder why that is. because getting that change to happen typically involves bombing those citizens and leaving them dead for decades never actually making things better for the aggrieved population in the first place
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Mar 4, 2019 20:46
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RaySmuckles posted:because getting that change to happen typically involves bombing those citizens and leaving them dead I don't know who in this thread is advocating for airstrikes in Venezuela. You can be pro-revolution by the citizens. Pro-aid. Anti-maduro. I am not american and don't give a poo poo about USA. I do care about starving people that are being dominated by a corrupt government.
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Mar 4, 2019 20:50
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zapplez posted:Thats great. So out of the like 50 or so countries with a decent standard of living, about 2 or 3 are dictatorships. I wonder why that is. Lets do the math and find out how many of those 50 or so countries built their standard of living off of colonial exploitation.
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Mar 4, 2019 20:52
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RaySmuckles posted:because getting that change to happen typically involves bombing those citizens and leaving them dead I mean, its more likely that the change will happen by funding right-wing terrorists and narcos to destabilize the country through internal violence. You know, "opposition aid," the obvious next step after sanctions inevitably fail to result in any positive change after a decade or so.
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Mar 4, 2019 20:56
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The Kingfish posted:I mean, its more likely that the change will happen by funding right-wing terrorists and narcos to destabilize the country through internal violence. You know, "opposition aid," the obvious next step after sanctions inevitably fail to result in any positive change after a decade or so. The narcos destabilizing the country through internal violence are already in charge, though.
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Mar 4, 2019 20:59
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Kalman posted:The narcos destabilizing the country through internal violence are already in charge, though. LEts fix things by introducing some friendly narcos. The narcos will kill eachother and then democracy can finally bloom 
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Mar 4, 2019 21:02
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zapplez posted:Thats a great start. Well Maduro requested UN observers and they didn't turn up because the opposition told them not to
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Mar 4, 2019 21:04
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zapplez posted:Thats great. So out of the like 50 or so countries with a decent standard of living, about 2 or 3 are dictatorships. I wonder why that is. 2 or 3 asian ones that built their standard of living on sweatshops and forced industrialization, plus the rest of the anglosphere and western europe that sits on a pile of loot stolen from someone else. What is the NHS but the UK going down to the pawn shop with poo poo they took from India and trading some of it in for a nationalized medical system?
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Mar 4, 2019 21:08
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i mean, even if the revolution was peaceful and successfully changed their heads of government, what's to say that's gonna make anything better? here's a list of nations that successfully ousted their leaders during our most recent peaceful coup wave, the arab spring: tunisia eygpt libya yemen which one of those countries is the model you'd like venezuela to replicate?
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Mar 4, 2019 21:09
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Tunisia is the only positive example, which makes it an awfully unlikely bet with the lives of 30mln Also this is not even getting into the fact that Tunisia was an internally led phenomenon, while Venezuela is definitely an outside led- and coordinated- coup mortons stork fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 21:10
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RaySmuckles posted:what's to say that's gonna make anything better? You're not wrong, but this is an argument that can be used against anyone making practically any decision ever. Hell, you can make the case that there's no guarantee doing absolutely nothing in regards to Venezuela won't make anything better.
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Mar 4, 2019 21:18
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:You're not wrong, but this is an argument that can be used against anyone making practically any decision ever. Hell, you can make the case that there's no guarantee doing absolutely nothing in regards to Venezuela won't make anything better. true and also true, and very possibly the case. but using the specific context of "US foreign policy" helps realize potential outcomes because we've seen the disastrous consequences of american foreign policy time and time again for like a century now. like, please, someone point to me a positive outcome from us foreign policy? what country did we uplift? save? maybe kuwait? any others?
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Mar 4, 2019 21:29
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RaySmuckles posted:i mean, even if the revolution was peaceful and successfully changed their heads of government, what's to say that's gonna make anything better? If you used this argument to experimental medicine we would have stopped after the first few tests. Hmm these people keep dying after chemo I guess it will never work. Just because most of the results have been poor doesn't mean you just raise up your hands and give up. And its not up to us anyways if there is a revolution and Maduro gets outted, its up to the citizens.
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Mar 4, 2019 21:32
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RaySmuckles posted:true Well, since you specified "for like a century now", there's World War Two and the Marshall Plan. Also dozens of disaster relief missions after earthquakes and hurricanes and the like such as the 2004 tsunami. Maybe that doesn't counterbalance the destructive things US foreign policy has done, but it isn't exactly negligible.
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Mar 4, 2019 21:34
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It's gonna be really funny if the only payment Guiado's paymasters give him for selling his country is martyring him to create an excuse for invasion. The actual invasion, unfortunately, wouldn't be funny at all and would in fact be yet another disgusting US-created catastrophe.
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Mar 4, 2019 21:35
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zapplez posted:If you used this argument to experimental medicine we would have stopped after the first few tests. Hmm these people keep dying after chemo I guess it will never work. This is like trial 100 when all the trials before it have resulted in a pile of corpses. CAPS LOCK BROKEN fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 21:36
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zapplez posted:If you used this argument to experimental medicine we would have stopped after the first few tests. Hmm these people keep dying after chemo I guess it will never work. i tend to find a noticeable difference between "individuals volunteering, even under the coercion of impending death, for experimental medical treatment" and "subjecting populations of millions to a foreign policy that regularly just makes poo poo worse and leaves bodycounts as high as a million" hint: there's a lot more agency in the first
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Mar 4, 2019 21:36
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Well, since you specified "for like a century now", there's World War Two and the Marshall Plan. Also dozens of disaster relief missions after earthquakes and hurricanes and the like such as the 2004 tsunami. Maybe that doesn't counterbalance the destructive things US foreign policy has done, but it isn't exactly negligible. US foreign policy has already sent medical aid and cash to Columbia for dealing with the Venezuelan refugee situation. There's even a hospital ship in Columbia sent there for the refugees various needed surgeries and such.
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Mar 4, 2019 21:45
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RaySmuckles posted:i tend to find a noticeable difference between "individuals volunteering, even under the coercion of impending death, for experimental medical treatment" and "subjecting populations of millions to a foreign policy that regularly just makes poo poo worse and leaves bodycounts as high as a million" Once again, for the millionth time. Who in this thread are you arguing with that is advocating for armed invasion by the USA? Its not me.
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Mar 4, 2019 22:05
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zapplez posted:Once again, for the millionth time. Who in this thread are you arguing with that is advocating for armed invasion by the USA? founding, financing, and supplying death squads, the exact kind of thing elliott abrams has made a career of, is going to result in a lot of innocent people dying that isn't american bombing but it absolutely is a facet of american foreign policy
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Mar 4, 2019 22:16
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RaySmuckles posted:here's a list of nations that successfully ousted their leaders during our most recent peaceful coup wave, the arab spring: Uhh... Tunisia? Which turned out pretty well, certainly way better than it was under Ben Ali, and now has a pretty solid democracy and is proven able to handle democratic changes of government as well as national crises? If Maduro and his ilk were to cut their losses and flee, which was only done by Ben Ali of those 4 countries, then ... that would be a pretty ideal outcome? Like yeah the economy is still going to blow for years afterwards, but at least there's a path to improvement rather than guaranteed stagnation. There are seriously a lot of countries that have benefitted after semi-democratic regime change, like that of Tunisia.
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Mar 4, 2019 22:18
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RaySmuckles posted:founding, financing, and supplying death squads, the exact kind of thing elliott abrams has made a career of, is going to result in a lot of innocent people dying I would be OK with death squads going after CIA plants.
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Mar 4, 2019 22:25
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Seriously, a lot of us who were regulars in this thread are not suddenly warmongering ghouls because we support the national assembly and/or the protesters in Venezuela for years. The existence of Abrams does not make all the struggles of national assembly and protesters into some sort of preparation for a theoretical slaughter.
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Mar 4, 2019 22:47
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Pharohman777 posted:Seriously, a lot of us who were regulars in this thread are not suddenly warmongering ghouls because we support the national assembly and/or the protesters in Venezuela. I think the point of contention is support for U.S. sanctions - a preparation for literal slaughter.
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Mar 4, 2019 22:49
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Saladman posted:Uhh... Tunisia? Which turned out pretty well, certainly way better than it was under Ben Ali, and now has a pretty solid democracy and is proven able to handle democratic changes of government as well as national crises? yeah, seconded a Tunisia outcome would be just about the best case scenario or I bet some folks in this thread would be on board with an Egypt one - the PSUV backs down and holds elections, the opposition wins, then a few years later the military overthrows the government to put the PSUV back into power, executes a bunch of oppo leaders, and establishes a one-party state 
Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 22:53 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 22:51
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The Kingfish posted:I think the point of contention is support for U.S. sanctions - a preparation for literal slaughter. its this
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Mar 4, 2019 22:53
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The Kingfish posted:I think the point of contention is support for U.S. sanctions - a preparation for literal slaughter. How in the world do you jump from sanctions to 'preparing for slaughter'?! North korea and iran have had sanctions for decades, and no one is preparing to attack them. Heck, the us and north korea have attempted talks multiple times!
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Mar 4, 2019 22:57
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Pharohman777 posted:How in the world do you jump from sanctions to 'preparing for slaughter'?! If you agree with the argument that "sanctions are violence" it's not particularly stretching things to believe this. Again, if.
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Mar 4, 2019 22:59
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Pharohman777 posted:How in the world do you jump from sanctions to 'preparing for slaughter'?! Attacking North Korea, China has made this clear over 60 years ago now, would mean directly attacking China. Iran is a huge, well armed country with the open support of Russia and a far enough geographical position to make it difficult to invade. Venezuela is fully in the Monroe doctrine sphere, sporting a military of no particular importance or capability to stand up to US troops, and the powers standing up for it are sure as gently caress not willing to risk open war to defend it.
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Mar 4, 2019 23:01
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:If you agree with the argument that "sanctions are violence" it's not particularly stretching things to believe this. Again, if. LMAO, get yourself one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Comprehension-Success-Minutes-Builders/dp/1576854949 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 4, 2019 23:02
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Pharohman777 posted:How in the world do you jump from sanctions to 'preparing for slaughter'?! North Korea is only standing because (a) they have nukes; and (b) it would gently caress over China/South Korea to an unacceptable degree. The Iraq War was launched in part as a preparation to attack Iran. At any rate, nobody would be shocked if we went to war with either of those two countries because they are firmly cemented as national enemies. Sanctions work to normalize that national enemy status so that nobody bats an eye when we start funding opposition groups in a decade or so. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 23:05
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mortons stork posted:and the powers standing up for it are sure as gently caress not willing to risk open war to defend it. Maybe they should.
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Mar 4, 2019 23:10
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It would be seen by the international community as comparable to Russia's actions in the Crimea, i.e explicitly imperialist and unlawful under international law but not worth going to war over. The only people who can prevent U.S. intervention in the Monroe sphere are U.S. citizens.
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Mar 4, 2019 23:11
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The Kingfish posted:North Korea is only standing because (a) they have nukes; and (b) it would gently caress over China/South Korea to an unacceptable degree. The Iraq War was launched in part as a preparation to attack Iran. At any rate, nobody would be shocked if we went to war with either of those two countries because they are firmly cemented as national enemies. Sanctions work to normalize that national enemy status so that nobody bats an eye when we start funding opposition groups in a decade or so. So by that logic you use for why north korea has not been attacked after sanctions, wouldn't the US not attack Venezuela because it would gently caress up Columbia, its closest ally in the region?
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Mar 4, 2019 23:23
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Pharohman777 posted:So by that logic you use for why north korea has not been attacked after sanctions, wouldn't the US not attack Venezuela because it would gently caress up Columbia, its closest ally in the region? i'm not seeing "qualification (a)" being satisfied in this supposition
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Mar 4, 2019 23:27
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Heard el presidente went back to Venezuela and held a rally. When will dictator Maduro stop quashing dissent.
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Mar 4, 2019 23:27
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Pharohman777 posted:So by that logic you use for why north korea has not been attacked after sanctions, wouldn't the US not attack Venezuela because it would gently caress up Columbia, its closest ally in the region? Uh, no. It would probably gently caress up Columbia, but Columbia doesn't have nukes so why would we even care? They, unlike China, couldn't do poo poo about it.
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Mar 4, 2019 23:28
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