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Darth Walrus posted:By the time of Zeta, he's sincerely trying to be a good guy. It's a serious uphill struggle and he keeps screwing up, but he does seem to want to be a good dad for Kamille and Mineva and to finally do his own dad's ideology justice. Don't mistake lack of ability for lack of interest. Was Char's personality change between Zeta and CCA ever explained?
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Mar 3, 2019 22:03
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Astoundingly Ugly Baby posted:Was Char's personality change between Zeta and CCA ever explained? The people he allied with were horribly butchered and Zeon and the Federation committed a whole loving lot more war crimes. It doesn't really need more explanation than that.
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Mar 3, 2019 22:06
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Astoundingly Ugly Baby posted:Was Char's personality change between Zeta and CCA ever explained? Haman grinding him into the dirt, Kamille getting brain damage, and the AEUG and Karaba either dying or becoming the Titans 2.0 seems to have pushed him over the edge towards a much more extreme version of the AEUG's original ideology. Well, that and his crippling feat of responsibility caught up with him, so he started self-sabotaging hard.
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Mar 3, 2019 22:07
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tsob posted:Why would Char join your Axis only if you're super moral? He's one of the most amoral characters in the franchise, and he only generally gives a poo poo about fulfilling his own objectives. I can't answer that, I can only tell you that's how the game works. Somewhat related to the game's take on Char is that if you play as the AEUG you can actually skip the events of Char's Counterattack by doing the correct sequence of things to keep him around and be at max alignment after beating Haman.
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Mar 3, 2019 22:07
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tsob posted:Why would Char join your Axis only if you're super moral? He's one of the most amoral characters in the franchise, and he only generally gives a poo poo about fulfilling his own objectives. Midjack posted:Try not to get hung up on the pivot point being the only difference but consider instead that the single choice comes with a host of other implications.
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Mar 3, 2019 22:47
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tsob posted:Where is it out of interest?
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Mar 3, 2019 22:59
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Char joining isn't a pivot point though. It might be a change due to another pivot point, but even then it's not a change that makes a lot of sense given his established character. Hence why I asked. An answer wouldn't be "don't get hung up on it", it'd be "X changed, which led to Y and thus Z happened" or something. Zedd posted:Rotterdam, The Netherlands. Cool. Is there any known story behind it's placement or design?
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Mar 3, 2019 23:03
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tsob posted:Char joining isn't a pivot point though. It might be a change due to another pivot point, but even then it's not a change that makes a lot of sense given his established character. Hence why I asked. An answer wouldn't be "don't get hung up on it", it'd be "X changed, which led to Y and thus Z happened" or something. The existence of an extremely gentle opposition force to the Earth Federation moderates Char's more extreme tendencies plus a lot of the Axis people look to him for leadership so he continues along the trajectory he was on from MSG to Zeta rather than the one he was on from Zeta to CCA.
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Mar 3, 2019 23:10
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tsob posted:Cool. Is there any known story behind it's placement or design? So basically a decently aware artist with the general mecha mixup / "everything is a transformer"
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Mar 3, 2019 23:19
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I mean, the V2 does end the show as a monument to peace and a sleeping guardian of the innocent, so that may have legit been what he was going for.
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Mar 3, 2019 23:21
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And the Wings of Light make it kind of look like a big mecha Peace "V"? Until you turn them on and start slicing armies in half with them.
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Mar 3, 2019 23:47
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tsob posted:He doesn't keep screwing up though; he mostly just doesn't like the results and ends up walking away regardless, even when his side actually won. The only real screw-up he made was getting mad at Haman during negotiations, and even then, things manage to work out in the end so that Neo Zeon align with AEUG afterwards. The Titans are defeated in the finale though, and he disappears immediately. It might have felt like a pyrrhic victory, but it was one regardless and within a couple of years he's popped up leading his own nation to lob two separate asteroids at Earth. A nation he signs a peace treaty as the head of; and then invalidates the whole thing because he wants to punish Earthnoids for being selfish and to fight Amuro. Won? Let's look at Char's goals in Zeta. Goal: Reform the Earth Federation. Result: The Earth Federation in ZZ is more corrupt than ever. Goal: Be a cool ace pilot who doesn't have to be responsible for anything. Result: Has the weight of the entire AEUG on his shoulders. Goal: Tell off Haman and wash his hands of the Zabi's legacy, letting Minerva live her own life. Result: The AEUG is allied with Neo Zeon, who beat the Federation and were only defeated when Gihren's bastard tried to usurp power from Haman. Goal: Mentor Kamille so a new generation of Newtypes could lead humanity to a better future. Result: Kamille is left in a vegetative state. The AEUG beat the Titans, technically, but none of Char's larger goals were accomplished, and a lot of the time he saw his attempts to do The Right Thing fail horribly (like how being honest with Reccoa left her to defect to Paptimus.). At the end of the One Year War, Sayla had finally gotten it through Char's thick skull that if he cared about his father's legacy, maybe he should be less of an rear end in a top hat, but when being less of an rear end in a top hat accomplishes nothing... well, the UC does tend to beat the idealism out of people. And in Char's case, there's not a default of not-an-rear end in a top hat to lean on when all the drive is gone.
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Mar 4, 2019 01:55
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chiasaur11 posted:Let's look at Char's goals in Zeta. Okay. chiasaur11 posted:Goal: Reform the Earth Federation. Sure, I bet it has nothing to do with the fact that as soon as the Gryps War was done, the Earth Federation were immediately embroiled in another war; only with a lot less resources because they'd just spent a lot of it fighting another war. Which wasn't at all because his speech at Dakar had just energized the Federation diet to abandon the Titans (and thus, a lot of their own military strength). chiasaur11 posted:Goal: Be a cool ace pilot who doesn't have to be responsible for anything. Implication: he hates responsibility and doesn't want to take it on for any reason. Which is why the next time we see him he's the head of an entire nation. chiasaur11 posted:Goal: Tell off Haman and wash his hands of the Zabi's legacy, letting Minerva live her own life. Should we discuss how when Haman beats him at the end of Zeta, he just disappears and let's someone else take care of that whole issue without ever addressing it again? To put it in contrast. 1) Parents are killed and the Zabis are the possible murderers according to one guy's word? Plan out an elaborate scheme for revenge that requires hiding in their ranks for several years as he slowly works his way in to their good graces before taking them out one by one. 2) Want to help Mineva free herself of the Zabi legacy? I'll give out to her guardian, and then when she beats me abandon the idea forever in favor of my own poo poo. 3) Want revenge on Earthnoids for being selfish? Found a new nation and start an army before maneuvering the major world power politically so that their own hubris can be used against them. One of those is not like the other. It's also the one he's not all that personally involved in. chiasaur11 posted:Goal: Mentor Kamille so a new generation of Newtypes could lead humanity to a better future. Ah yes, the guy he cared so much about that he left before he could have found out that Kamille was actually hurt. "Oh, but he totally found out. Off-screen. Through Newtype telepathy" Sure, the type of Newtype telepathy that's so exact it'd tell Char that Kamille had suffered but also vague enough that it wouldn't let him know Kamille had actually survived it and that within a few days he'd be psychically conversing with others on screen and that within a year he'd be completely recovered. As in, the type that's kind of against the entire idea of Newtype connections, which are normally portrayed as supremely insightful. Also, quick question: if he was motivated by it, why wasn't it ever shown on screen? It's not in Zeta, ZZ or Char's Counterattack. Even when someone realizes another person has died because of a Newtype connection, it's normally shown on screen - with their reaction being a good indicator of the relationship. Char is never even shown reacting to Kamille's death. Which says a lot on it's own really. chiasaur11 posted:The AEUG beat the Titans, technically, but none of Char's larger goals were accomplished, and a lot of the time he saw his attempts to do The Right Thing fail horribly (like how being honest with Reccoa left her to defect to Paptimus.). She left because he didn't show enough interest or investment in their relationship for her to stick around, not because he was honest. She literally asks if he's given her enough reason to stay just before she leaves for the final time. I don't even disagree that Char through the Quattro guise was trying to be a good person by the way, at least in his own head; I think he just didn't have the capacity for it and that moments like him pondering whether cyber newtypes are actually a good idea are an indication of his impatient personality shining through. No, from his point of view the Federation didn't change enough in five years. That's the point though; it's only from his point of view. Five years is nothing, especially when at least one year of those is in the midst of another war and there's no longer any central motivating character to drive them to change because Char abandoned the cause and all proponents of it all fell through within 12 months of his disappearance. Char gave it a go and felt it failed. His "go" was pretty pathetic on the whole though. tsob fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 02:57
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tsob posted:Implication: he hates responsibility and doesn't want to take it on for any reason. Which is why the next time we see him he's the head of an entire nation. This isn't implied, this is stated. It's why Kai gave us the famous A CHAR letter. He could and should rise up the ranks and lead others, but instead, he wants to be a common soldier and nothing more. The fact that he actually accepted the role he should've had as Zeon's son in Char's Counterattack is proof of how much Zeta's events affected him (probably, I do feel we should've gotten something between end of Zeta-Char's Counterattack showing his change) quote:Ah yes, the guy he cared so much about that he left before he could have found out that Kamille was actually hurt. This one's on Sunrise. The original plan for Char's Counterattack (which started during ZZ, hence Quattro appearing in the opening but never in the series) was for Kamille to be turned into a Cyber Newtype by Char. This was not allowed (like how Beltorchika was not allowed to appear, hence Amuro getting a new girlfriend again). It's clear what was intended with that, but sadly, we'll never get to see it in action.
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Mar 4, 2019 03:25
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Omnicrom posted:If it's any consolation (probably not much) my understanding is that, at least in the original Saturn version, winning with Zeon pretty much REQUIRES you to go all in on warcrimes. Like, the prerequisite to winning a complete victory is to conquer Jaburo, and the only way to conquer Jaburo is get super lucky with Char's raid (which requires Ramba Ral to die so Char can tail the White Base) or, more likely, to successfully do another colony drop. And even before you get around to Operation British 2 if you're successful enough in conquering regions the game eventually has Gato pop in and say "Hey, let's just go ahead and break the Antarctic treaty and put Nukes on Zakus", and so you do and you can start making Nuclear Zakus, which are, again, walking War Crimes. If we're talking war crimes in Ghiren's Greed games, just read a playthrough a guy did involving Tem Ray that goes to absolutely horrifying levels of atrocities and bleakness
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Mar 4, 2019 04:08
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Blaze Dragon posted:
The original plans did have him in ZZ, but the Kamille thing is pure fanon. No evidence for it anywhere.
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Mar 4, 2019 04:10
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drrockso20 posted:If we're talking war crimes in Ghiren's Greed games, just read a playthrough a guy did involving Tem Ray that goes to absolutely horrifying levels of atrocities and bleakness Got a link for that one? As for Char in ZZ the only story I've heard is the one where he was planned to show up and do stuff akin to what he does in CCA, but that ended when they got the go ahead to make CCA a movie. Omnicrom fucked around with this message at 04:32 on Mar 4, 2019 |
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Mar 4, 2019 04:30
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tsob posted:I just can't see this as having been true in Mobile Suit Gundam itself, because Amuro destroys the Black Tristars in 3 Doms only a couple of days later after no significant conflict to make him grow as a pilot. While none of the three are as individually skilled as Ramba, there are 3 of them on the other hand and all of them are going to be far more skilled on an individual level than any of the rest of Ramba's forces. Amuro was still going through a bit of a mental crisis around the time Ral was hitting the White Base. Given that Ral's forces came within a hair of actually winning, I could see all of them showing up in Doms being enough to tip the balance. tsob posted:Why would Char join your Axis only if you're super moral? He's one of the most amoral characters in the franchise, and he only generally gives a poo poo about fulfilling his own objectives. The alignment scale in Gihren's Ambition isn't "good" or "bad" or "moral" or "immoral", it's "law" and "chaos" which basically boils down to how warcrimey you are. If you don't commit warcrimes you very slowly drift towards law, if you do you careen towards chaos.
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Mar 4, 2019 04:38
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Char sucks. Love that dude, but he sucks.
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Mar 4, 2019 07:06
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Omnicrom posted:Got a link for that one? I'd like the link too. Where is this Glemy the Zabi bastard stuff coming from?
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Mar 4, 2019 08:26
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Why wasn't Beltorchika allowed to be on ZZ. From what I've read she was introduced in Zeta mainly because Sayla's VA was unavailable.
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Mar 4, 2019 10:06
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Erd posted:I'd like the link too. Well, I don't know where it started, but I can at least say it came up as a rumor in The Plot to Assassinate Gihren. (A rumor that the Prime Minister of Zeon thought was likely enough to bring up in conversation, so it's not exactly baseless in universe.)
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Mar 4, 2019 10:30
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Midjack posted:The entire Ghiren’s Greed series gives you opportunities to completely derail the plots of just about everything in the UC. Try not to get hung up on the pivot point being the only difference but consider instead that the single choice comes with a host of other implications. In this case, it’s not just a new mobile suit but additional supplies and personnel that means his second attack has 10x as many people on his side as it did in the show. The subtitle for the thread is probably going to be "Try not to get hung up on the pivot". That's the best way to approach Gihren's Greed games. You can play Gihren as not-Hitler if you want, but as somebody else pointed out - this is really only explored in later Gihren's Greed games. To win as Zeon in the original for the Saturn, pretty much all of your optimal choices involve warcrimes. Don't want to fight the massive Federation fleet at A Baoa Qu? Warcrimes (and patricide). Want to have a shot at winning the final invasion at Jaburo? Warcrimes. Want to have MS that can out-bullshit Federation MS? Warcrimes. It's the small decisions - like sending Ral's team after White Base with your full support - that make it interesting. The decision to supply Ral with Doms is less about 'Ral would've totally won if he had Doms' and more about you running Zeon without letting factional interests (aka, M'Quve/Kycilia's interests) get in your way. Of course, letting factional squabbles occur can lead to even bigger things - piss off Kycilia or Char enough and they'll create their own Zeon faction to oppose you (right on your back doorstep along with some of your best pilots to boot) just when you've got the Federation on the ropes. Similarly when you're playing as the Federation letting Jamitov do his thing will get you some nice technology despite warcrimes, but will also see the Titans forming much, much earlier to oppose you just as you're trying to mop up Zeon.
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Mar 4, 2019 16:00
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That makes the original game pretty close to the actual show. Yes, for nine months the Principality pretty much had the Federation by the balls, but they were always on a knife's edge of everything backfiring on them, and once the Gundam appeared things started to turn sour. They pretty much had to war crimes their way to victory because they just don't have the numbers or manufacturing capability to stand up to the Federation once it fully mobilizes and adapts to their tactics. So I'd say that a warcrimes simulator in Gihren's Greed is a pretty neat way to do things, ethically repulsive as it is.
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Mar 4, 2019 19:44
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drat I wish those games were in english
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Mar 4, 2019 21:03
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One of the neat things about Gihren's Greed was their decision to just completely fudge the numbers when it came to AI production. A lot of strategy games of this variety try to make it so that you and the AI play by the same set of rules. This works in things like Civ, but with the way these games are designed it'd positively suck. If you spend half the game decimating zeon forces and capturing supply points, then by all rights you should just end up slaughtering them once it comes time for things like the battle of solomon. Instead, the game ramps up the strength of the AI forces over time, which means that by the time you reach A Baou Qu with your huge gently caress-off armada, you still have to fight a fairly tooth and nail battle against a zeonic last stand, rather than just waltzing in. It leaves the whole thing feeling a hell of a lot more cinematic than it might otherwise, which I greatly appreciate. Edit: For those who are interested, there is a fairly good LP of threat of axis V to be found here. The guy does five full playthroughs, which is fairly impressive. It is also fairly expansive in its explination of the game systems, so between this and the wiki mentioned earlier, it should be enough to get the gist of the game for anyone interested enough to search it out. Caros fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 06:40
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The ramping challenge is actually pretty easy to exploit; they do get tech advances, but the real nasty poo poo trigger is when you get the AI down to just a couple of territories, at which point a switch flips and "bullshit endgame mode" activates and the AI pulls a million top tier units out of their butt to make sure you have a suitably climactic final battle. It doesn't save them from Scirocco, Four, and Rosamia showing up at Grenada piloting Xi Gundams, but they do try.
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Mar 5, 2019 06:54
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Also, reading through that LP has introduced me to my new favorite thing:
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Mar 5, 2019 07:09
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Is that a dummy Zaku or is it just covered in bail wrap?
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Mar 5, 2019 07:36
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Arcsquad12 posted:Is that a dummy Zaku or is it just covered in bail wrap? It is exactly what it looks like. A Zaku in a winter coat.
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Mar 5, 2019 07:41
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Omnicrom posted:Got a link for that one? Erd posted:I'd like the link too. here you go, there were a series of multiple threads over on 4chan's /m/ board where two guys "X" and his successor "Copy X" each ran multiple campaigns using Menace of Axis V, since these took place over multiple threads I'm only linking the first threads each for X and Copy X, towards the bottom of each thread should be a link to the next one in line; X's first thread https://desuarchive.org/m/thread/17083623/ Copy X's first thread https://desuarchive.org/m/thread/17126423/ as it is 4chan one must express some caution for reading these, cause although /m/ is one of the most tame boards it still is 4chan
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Mar 5, 2019 08:48
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Caros posted:It is exactly what it looks like. A Zaku in a winter coat. Fun fact? Those show up in The Plot To Assassinate Gihren. After Zeon was kicked off Earth, they didn't need that equipment any more, so the Shield of Zeon capital defense force claimed what they had, just because they're basically a parade duty and they can't get picky. Also, they were plotting a rebellion against Gihren, and their forces were outnumbered, which meant they had to get clever. Since they were the only ones with winter clothes, they took over the colony's weather control and froze the other Zakus, letting them turn likely defeat into easy victory. Logistics win wars.
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Mar 5, 2019 09:02
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Caros posted:Also, reading through that LP has introduced me to my new favorite thing: Almost as dumb as Kondo's love of putting zimmerit on everything Zeon he can draw.
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Mar 5, 2019 13:41
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Blaze Dragon posted:This isn't implied, this is stated. It's why Kai gave us the famous A CHAR letter. He could and should rise up the ranks and lead others, but instead, he wants to be a common soldier and nothing more. The fact that he actually accepted the role he should've had as Zeon's son in Char's Counterattack is proof of how much Zeta's events affected him (probably, I do feel we should've gotten something between end of Zeta-Char's Counterattack showing his change) He was a commander in 0079; one who mourned the loss of men, and even oversaw the death of a beloved subordinated (Lalah), before justifying it as a necessary expense of war. He became a commander again for a cause he believed was necessary in Char's Counterattack. I can definitely see the argument that he didn't desire to be a commander but I cannot see the argument that he wouldn't become one for a cause he believed in. In fact, the cause he became leader to champion in Char's Counterattack is almost the same as the cause in Zeta (get the gently caress off Earth assholes!), but just using much faster, more violent means. The fact he walked away from AEUG at literally the first real opportunity without apparently ever looking back or seemingly even checking how bad things were says to me that he never gave any real fucks about them or believed much in their methodology in the first place. Blaze Dragon posted:This one's on Sunrise. The original plan for Char's Counterattack (which started during ZZ, hence Quattro appearing in the opening but never in the series) was for Kamille to be turned into a Cyber Newtype by Char. This was not allowed (like how Beltorchika was not allowed to appear, hence Amuro getting a new girlfriend again). It's clear what was intended with that, but sadly, we'll never get to see it in action. I don't believe this for a second. One of the main reasons we know that Beltorchika wasn't allowed to appear in Char's Counterattack is that she does appear in Tomino's novelized version of events: Beltorchika's Children. There is no version of Char's Counterattack written by Tomino where Kamille appears at all. Nor, to my knowledge is there any version in any media, official or unofficial where he appears as a cyber Newtype. Not even in SRW or something so far as I know. It's just pure fanon, on the level of "Loran was meant to be a girl". It doesn't even make much sense either, because ZZ is literally just Zeta's second half and started airing the week after Zeta finished. Okay, technically two weeks later because there was a recap episode the week after, but even that recap was titled ZZ episode 1. Kamille was already starting a recovery within the first few episodes of ZZ, which must have been nearly finished production by the time Zeta aired. The idea that Tomino's original plan was to use an injured Kamille in the plot of something he hadn't even started working on yet is nonsense. We also have notes on the original vision for ZZ (known at the time as Zeta Part II), linked here. Some kind poster translated it here several years back, but I forgot to take note of his name and can't find the original posts using a search to credit him now. So thanks, forgotten guy. It also pisses all over the characters to use that storyline. Kamille expressly tells Char he hates cyber Newtypes in Zeta and one of the central traumas of his life is centered on the existence of a cyber Newtype. The idea that Char would care so much for Kamille that he'd go out of his way to heal him is undercut by the idea he'd do so using means he explicitly knows Kamille loathes and that border on actual torture. That said, I do wonder what you think the clear intention for that storyline was; because I certainly don't see one. Kanos posted:Amuro was still going through a bit of a mental crisis around the time Ral was hitting the White Base. Given that Ral's forces came within a hair of actually winning, I could see all of them showing up in Doms being enough to tip the balance. Amuro wasn't within a hair's breadth of losing though. His mind, I mean, not to Ral. Ral does nearly overcome the White Base, but that's when he's using guerrilla tactics and not when he's using mobile suits. He's more successful then than he is using mobile suits really, and the only reason he uses those tactics is because he has no more mobile suits. Amuro's crisis at the time is a one of identity after Bright pulls him from piloting duty, which is how he's defined himself on the ship up to that point; so a rejection of that is basically a rejection of Amuro himself. A crises he puts aside literally the first time he sees the White Base might be in danger. He still doesn't get fully over it until Ryu dies, but he runs back as soon as he sees Ral is attacking the White Base. Also, while the Dom is overall held to be a better suit than the Gouf, it's not really a better melee suit. It's faster, but it's armaments in melee range aren't as effective and it's not so much better overall as to make up for that deficiency given that's where things between Ral and Amuro were decided. I'm not sure he wouldn't have actually fared worse using a Dom than using a Gouf.
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Mar 5, 2019 14:26
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Almost as dumb as Kondo's love of putting zimmerit on everything Zeon he can draw. See also Ippei Gyoubu's unfortunate habit of putting sieg runes on a bunch of his mecha designs.
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Mar 5, 2019 15:11
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tsob posted:
Give him an upgraded Gouf Custom then, with extra plot armor attachments.
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Mar 5, 2019 19:19
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Wait, is the idea just "give ral A Dom" and not "give all of ral's men doms"
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Mar 5, 2019 20:54
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ninjewtsu posted:Wait, is the idea just "give ral A Dom" and not "give all of ral's men doms" The idea is to reinforce Ral’s squad with generous supplies including Doms. Which would likely mean that instead of charging into close combat they stayed back and played to their advantages. Caros posted:Edit: For those who are interested, there is a fairly good LP of threat of axis V to be found here. The guy does five full playthroughs, which is fairly impressive. It is also fairly expansive in its explination of the game systems, so between this and the wiki mentioned earlier, it should be enough to get the gist of the game for anyone interested enough to search it out. Tobias Grant did an LP of that one here too though it’s in Archives now: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3593171
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Mar 5, 2019 21:00
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Yeah that's a much different conversation than "how would ral have done if he had a dom instead of a gouf"
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Mar 5, 2019 23:03
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jackhunter64 posted:See also Ippei Gyoubu's unfortunate habit of putting sieg runes on a bunch of his mecha designs. Uh...do you have examples of this? I'd never noticed it before. Also, Kondo's obsession with comically oversized skirt armor.
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Mar 5, 2019 23:22
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