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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Did you just have a stroke? Work on reading comprehension might aid you here, perhaps? Do you need me to use shorter words? Cat tax 
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Mar 5, 2019 18:54
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You should assess the agency of a political force based on the leverage it can wield and, based on that leverage, what is their capacity for action. Guaidò coordinated with the US every step of the way, to the point of asking Pence for permission to launch his operation, and has so far been entirely dependent on US/Western support to have his campaign for takeover. In other words he has 0 leverage or capacity for independent action, his only means are furnished by the US, and his actions have to be approved by the US. The Venezuelan opposition could demonstrate agency by jettisoning the US puppet and mounting its own resistance, but they haven't, which leads one either to the conclusion that they are very ok with US help, and with Elliot Abrams, or to the one where the opposition just doesn't have agency. These scenarios are functionally indistinguishable because there is 0 way to tell from the outside, it's not like they'll put up a poster advertising it.
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Mar 5, 2019 18:59
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Rust Martialis posted:Work on reading comprehension might aid you here, perhaps? Do you need me to use shorter words? You made a post about other countries. I replied asking you about other countries. Now you're posting cat pictures and screeching about agency.
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Mar 5, 2019 19:06
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I suppose you can back up these claims that Guaidò a) has coordinated with the US since the beginning of his political involvement in roughly 2007 b) "asked Pence for permission" to "launch his operation" (along with the rest of the legislative branch) c) "has been entirely dependent on US/Western support" since the transition to efforts to oust Maduro began in earnest in at least 2015 Read the OP. The country existed before you came to the thread a couple weeks ago.
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Mar 5, 2019 19:06
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Discendo Vox posted:I suppose you can back up these claims that Guaidò  "if you can't prove that guaido wasn't delivered by pence as a baby you can't prove he's being propped up by the US  " is quite a take
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Mar 5, 2019 19:16
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i'd like to point out that "read the op and if you don't agree with me/it, you're wrong" is one of the laziest arguments. the pro-guaido side apparently can't even cite the pieces of the op they think are a good counter argument. instead they give out lazy "convince yourself by reading praxeology" style non-answers and whine that the thread used to be so much better when people who disagreed with them weren't in the thread
Condiv fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 19:25
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Condiv posted:the US should probably stop starving these children via deleterious economic sanctions against venezuela I wish I could so flippantly disregard credible allegations of the gruesome murder of children, but we can't all be as moral as warmongers like yourself I suppose.
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Mar 5, 2019 19:51
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Discendo Vox posted:Maduro has only begun accepting foreign aid (in small amounts, to unclear ends) in, iirc, the past 6 months, specifically to try to elide the idea that he doesn't accept foreign aid. I believe he's still denying there's a food crisis, hence the propaganda video from earlier with "filled store shelves". He's using the Venezuelan people as hostages against any form of accountability. Posters from venezuela ITT say that donating to Karitas' venezuela charity or Fe y Alegria reliably gets help to where it's needed most. You really need to listen to actual venezuelans more, IMO. fnox posted:You want to do something for Venezuelans right now? Do you want to show that you actually care? Donate to Caritas, yes, it's ran by the Catholic church but put that aside for just a second, it's the only reputable charity that is reliably getting help to Venezuelans right now. Call me whatever the gently caress you want, but please, if you're going to act like you care, put your money where your mouth is, there's a lot that these people can do with just 5 dollars. Furia posted:Fe y Alegria was good last I checked but it’s been a while. It’s also a catholic one but then again most of the Venezuelan charity apparatus seems to be, at least as far as I know Hugoon Chavez posted:This bring backs memories, I got fed by Fe y Alegría a couple of times, and also got some free school supplies from them. I'm not a fan of religious groups but they do a decent job. I've donated to them before, until I had to just send that money to my mother instead. Also I'd donate more but bathroom leaking is getting beyond ignoring so new donations won't be happening for the next several months, sorry venegoons.
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Mar 5, 2019 19:58
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You know those charities are what people are being directed to because everything else gets seized, including actually scalable aid. It's the whole basis of discussion of those groups. Stop being a jackass for internet points.
Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 20:11
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I didn't know scalable aid meant "cut country from most international markets by seizing all the money and then send three trucks of aid when there's like 30 million malnourished people in the import dependant country." The matter of fact is, those charities are working to help venezuelans while lovely neocolonials are working to harm them. If that makes me a jackass, I guess I'm a jackass.
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Mar 5, 2019 20:24
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Maduro's been refusing aid for years, refusing to acknowledge there's a crisis. this was, again, years before the 2017 general sanctions. The millions of malnourished people? he caused that. Again, you know this, and you know we know this. Does Venezuela not exist for you except as a proxy for your beliefs on the United States? It's damned solipsistic.Chuck Boone posted:One of the unfortunate side effects of US involvement in the crisis from a public debate standpoint is that some people seem to think that its a licence to be woefully ignorant. They seem to forget that there's a country of millions with a long history of legal, political, and social struggle involved as well.
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Mar 5, 2019 20:32
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Venezuelans should starve because the alternative is much worse. 
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Mar 5, 2019 20:36
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From what I can see, the only alternative to starving for venezuelans right now is a popular revolution, op. They're stuck between bad and worse. I can't tell you which is worse, guaido or maduro, because guaido hasn't had a chance to nazi it up yet, but they both look very bad.Discendo Vox posted:Maduro's been refusing aid for years, refusing to acknowledge there's a crisis. this was, again, years before the 2017 general sanctions. The millions of malnourished people? he caused that. Again, you know this, and you know we know this. Does Venezuela not exist for you except as a proxy for your beliefs on the United States? It's damned solipsistic. vvvv: I loving love strawmen. Truga fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 20:42
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I really cannot get over these "it's the US' fault that Maduro is letting people starve to preserve his own pride" takes. 
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Mar 5, 2019 20:49
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Guaido is holding a meeting today with public sector unionized workers to organize activities. I just saw a short clip of the meeting on Twitter that I'd like to share here to give you an idea of what's happening at this meeting: https://twitter.com/SergioNovelli/status/1103004063329865728 quote:Patines: ... lawyers, that they join this struggle. We are [from] the Minister of Foreign Affair's union. My name is Jose Patines, and I'm here to ask the interim president a question. We need your support. We need your support to tell all public sector employees that [you will] guarantee their positions. This is very important. Even though we don't earn anything, we're watching out for our positions because [we want to help] completely rebuild the country! And everyone in the foreign service is waiting for us! Ministry of Foreign Affairs! Calle y lucha! Calle y lucha! Calle y lucha! [literally, "streets and struggle!", meaning "Let's stay on the streets and continue this struggle against Maduro")
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Mar 5, 2019 20:59
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https://twitter.com/anyaparampil/status/1102724114068971520?s=20
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Mar 5, 2019 21:01
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Truga posted:From what I can see, the only alternative to starving for venezuelans right now is a popular revolution, op.
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Mar 5, 2019 21:02
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Truga posted:I can't tell you which is worse, guaido or maduro, because guaido hasn't had a chance to nazi it up yet, but they both look very bad. And what, exactly, makes you think Guaido is going to "nazi it up"? Please do not answer "because he interacts with the US government".
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Mar 5, 2019 21:05
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Truga posted:Yes, maduro's been refusing aid for years, and yet, aid keeps getting into the country around maduro, when it's not a circus. Meanwhile neocolonials/imperialists are literally cutting the country off from imports, instead of providing aid through any means they can find. "Maduro's been refusing to accept aid, but you know who's really responsible for mass starvation? The countries refusing to do business with the fucker refusing aid." Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 21:13
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:And what, exactly, makes you think Guaido is going to "nazi it up"? Please do not answer "because he interacts with the US government".  this is sad. "please explain what makes guaido a nazi aside from the fact that he has constantly associated with nazis  0M. Discordia posted:I wish I could so flippantly disregard credible allegations of the gruesome murder of children, but we can't all be as moral as warmongers like yourself I suppose. you got a very warped sense of warmongering if calling for the US to not engage in warlike action is "warmongering"
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Mar 5, 2019 21:24
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:And what, exactly, makes you think Guaido is going to "nazi it up"? Please do not answer "because he interacts with the US government". He's buddying up with bolsonaro, he's buddying up with pence, two prominent nazis in the americas. I dunno what else to say, really. If he was really a socialist like people here keep saying, you'd think he'd be making a program to bring venezuelans out of poverty and starvation, not into a new neoliberal hellhole.
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Mar 5, 2019 21:28
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Truga posted:He's buddying up with bolsonaro, he's buddying up with pence, two prominent nazis in the americas. I dunno what else to say, really. Wasn't he also praising Israel?
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Mar 5, 2019 21:38
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IIRC it's just "wants to reestablish relations with israel", which probably just means an embassy.
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Mar 5, 2019 21:43
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Truga posted:If he was really a socialist like people here keep saying, you'd think he'd be making a program to bring venezuelans out of poverty and starvation, not into a new neoliberal hellhole. Really? "If he's so concerned with poverty and starvation, why is he trying to depose the person refusing to allow aid in? He should be working within the system!" You're not even trying, are you?
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Mar 5, 2019 21:44
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Truga posted:He's buddying up with bolsonaro, he's buddying up with pence, two prominent nazis in the americas. So your evidence that he's going to go Super Hitler is accepting diplomatic support from the two of the most politically-powerful nations in the hemisphere and which likely would've happened exactly the same if, say, it was Presidents Clinton and Not Bolsonaro instead. Also, and this is admittedly pedantic of me, Pence is much more of a Phalangist than a Nazi. There's way more flavors of fascism than just Nazism sadly. Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 21:59
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:So your evidence that he's going to go Super Hitler is accepting diplomatic support from the two of the most politically-powerful nations in the hemisphere and which likely would've happened exactly the same if, say, it was Presidents Clinton and Not Bolsonaro instead. sure, he's palling around with genocidal people he has neither the inclination or ability to check, his supporters set people on fire for being the wrong color, and the US is running guns into the country under a man who has openly stated the purpose of aid he directs is to facilitate his guys' violence, but hey, there's so much evidence that Guaido is materially different from the murderers row that are his predecessors, such as
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Mar 5, 2019 22:13
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Keeshhound posted:Really? "If he's so concerned with poverty and starvation, why is he trying to depose the person refusing to allow aid in? He should be working within the system!" That's not what I'm saying, but thanks for putting words in my mouth anyway.
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Mar 5, 2019 22:14
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Truga posted:That's not what I'm saying, but thanks for putting words in my mouth anyway. If you're gonna try to gaslight me, the least you could do is try to avoid doing it when I directly quote you.
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Mar 5, 2019 22:24
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:his supporters set people on fire for being the wrong color Cite?
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Mar 5, 2019 22:40
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Rust Martialis posted:Cite? It was one incident two years ago. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-39994965 e: He actually survived. And it was more likely because he was a chavista (Maduro said he voiced his support for the PSUV or something like that, though it seems people who witnessed it say people in the mob claimed he was a thief) than for his skin color, the pictures and footage seems to show a couple of black people in the mob as well. And as horrible as that is, for all intents and purposes it's actually proven to be what can be called an isolated incident and not something which regularly happens at anti-Maduro demonstrations because it hasn't really happened again since that one incident. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 22:43
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Rust Martialis posted:Cite? He's referring to a specific incident of a man burned to death a couple years ago. According to which side you ask, he was either an innocent person of color murdered by fascists or he was one of Maduro's paramilitary thugs and video of the incident was taken during a street battle where many, many others were hurt too.
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Mar 5, 2019 22:44
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Randarkman posted:It was one incident two years ago. I don't it really matters what his political views are when it comes to being loving burnt alive and using it as an excuse makes you look like a person that would actually cheer Abrams on.
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Mar 5, 2019 22:50
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:He's referring to a specific incident of a man burned to death a couple years ago. According to which side you ask, he was either an innocent person of color murdered by fascists or he was one of Maduro's paramilitary thugs and video of the incident was taken during a street battle where many, many others were hurt too. when our enemies lynch people, it is proof of their monstrosity. when our friends lynch people, they probably have it coming. gotta love that Commitment To Democracy And Human Rights, huh gang
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Mar 5, 2019 22:51
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This guy? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-image-idUSKBN18I2HF Well, uh, from the Reuters report he: 1) was being chased for a thief, and 2) didn't die. (edit: it looks he may have died 2 weeks later, not clear) quote:Though Maduro accused the mob of attacking the man, whom he identified as 21-year old Orlando Figuera, because he was pro-government, Bello said they were calling him a thief. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 22:51
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Rust Martialis posted:This guy? He Was No Angel.
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Mar 5, 2019 22:53
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ChaseSP posted:I don't it really matters what his political views are when it comes to being loving burnt alive and using it as an excuse makes you look like a person that would actually cheer Abrams on. Oh, I'm not using it as an excuse. I didn't mean to have it come across as that. I guess what I'm trying to say that instead of this being the pattern of opposition demonstrations that some claim it to be it's so far remained a single hosed up incident that happened two years ago and which has not been repeated so far in this latest wave of protests. Rust Martialis posted:This guy? The guy still got burns on 80% of his body. I don't think whether or not he was lucky enough to survive makes it look that much better. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 22:53
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Rust Martialis posted:This guy? you, uh, know why they accused him of being a thief right
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Mar 5, 2019 22:54
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sexpig by night posted:you, uh, know why they accused him of being a thief right No, do you? I mean the only facts presented are in the article.
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Mar 5, 2019 22:57
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Rust Martialis posted:No, do you? gee I wonder why this mob of people accused a rando dark skinned guy of being a thief that just happened to go along with a political protest...
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Mar 5, 2019 22:59
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sexpig by night posted:gee I wonder why this mob of people accused a rando dark skinned guy of being a thief that just happened to go along with a political protest... So, no, you don't know either.
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Mar 5, 2019 23:02
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