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sexpig by night posted:gee I wonder why this mob of people accused a rando dark skinned guy of being a thief that just happened to go along with a political protest... quote:During Venezuela’s economic and political crisis, lynchings have become common, killing about one person every three days according to monitoring group Venezuelan Observatory of Violence. But I'm sure it's all actually just being used as a cover for racism and has nothing to do with the general breakdown of society.
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Mar 5, 2019 23:04
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Keeshhound posted:But I'm sure it's all actually just being used as a cover for racism and has nothing to do with the general breakdown of society. is this when you also try to do the thing where people say most lynching victims in america were white criminals
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Mar 5, 2019 23:05
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sexpig by night posted:is this when you also try to do the thing where people say most lynching victims in america were white criminals Sorry, this is the Venezuela thread, not USPOL. You and other thread tourists keep seeming to forget this. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 23:07
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yea it's almost like mob violence and vigilante executions almost always target people deemed the minority regardless of country
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Mar 5, 2019 23:09
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Keeshhound posted:If you're gonna try to gaslight me, the least you could do is try to avoid doing it when I directly quote you. what
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Mar 5, 2019 23:10
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sexpig by night posted:is this when you also try to do the thing where people say most lynching victims in america were white criminals Sadly mobs lynching criminals, or even just suspected criminals (someone yelling "thief" in a crowd and people going nuts), tends to be a thing that happens in countries where crime has gotten out of control and law enforcement has just stopped being effective or even present. Venezuela has been such a country for quite a while, it's overshadowed by the food crisis, but it bears mentioning that it's also one of the most generally unsafe countries in Latin America, when it comes to violent muggings and even murders. And no, I'm not saying that vigilante mobs lynching people, who I wouldn't be surprised if they'd often be black and such more often than not, is a good or justifiable thing. However the thing is that such lynchings are not a feature of opposition protests (though they are common in country due to the general social breakdown and state of crisis, indeed they are a part of a larger picture) and hasn't happened at them after this incident. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 23:12
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sexpig by night posted:yea it's almost like mob violence and vigilante executions almost always target people deemed the minority regardless of country You have nothing to back up your claims, so you just fall back to making random poo poo up. Cool.
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Mar 5, 2019 23:13
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Randarkman posted:Sadly mobs lynching criminals, or even just suspected criminals (someone yelling "thief" in a crowd and people going nuts), tends to be a thing that happnes in countries where crime has gotten out of control and law enforcement has just stopped being effective or even present. Venezuela has been such a country for quite a while, it's overshadowed by the food crisis, but it bears mentioning that it's also one of the most generally unsafe countries in Latin America, when it comes to violent muggings and even murders. to claim that this can't possibly be a racial element but is just pure 'aw dang they're just so sick of crime' is ignoring literally all of history but ok
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Mar 5, 2019 23:13
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sexpig by night posted:to claim that this can't possibly be a racial element but is just pure 'aw dang they're just so sick of crime' is ignoring literally all of history but ok That's not what I'm saying. The racial element for sure is there to some extent.
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Mar 5, 2019 23:16
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Randarkman posted:Sadly mobs lynching criminals, or even just suspected criminals (someone yelling "thief" in a crowd and people going nuts), tends to be a thing that happens in countries where crime has gotten out of control and law enforcement has just stopped being effective or even present. Venezuela has been such a country for quite a while, it's overshadowed by the food crisis, but it bears mentioning that it's also one of the most generally unsafe countries in Latin America, when it comes to violent muggings and even murders. I remember that a couple of years ago there was a lot of talk in local media about lynching, because the practice seemed to be on the rise. I can't say for sure that it was because I haven't seen any comparative statistics on the issue. I think the year might have been 2017 because I found a news report citing a study from a well-known NGO called the Observatorio Venezolano de Conflictividad Social (Venezuelan Social Conflict Watch) from 2017 that talks about lynching. According to the figures from the OVCS, there were 200 lynchings (including attempted lynchings--I guess this means the victim survived?) between January and the end of November 2017, for an average of about 18 incidents per month. The article says that the OVCS called the figures "alarming". I don't know how that figure stacks up with lynchings throughout the years in Venezuela, but like I said, I do remember the media making a big deal out of it a couple of years back.
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Mar 5, 2019 23:19
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sexpig by night posted:is this when you also try to do the thing where people say most lynching victims in america were white criminals It's almost impressive that you can wallow so deeply in ethnocentrism that you not only try to accuse other people of racism, but racism within the specific cultural frame that you were raised in while discussing the prospect of racially motivated violence in a completely different country and culture. sexpig by night posted:to claim that this can't possibly be a racial element but is just pure 'aw dang they're just so sick of crime' is ignoring literally all of history but ok But falling back on assuming that it is wholely the result of the type of racism commonly seen in the US is well and proper because Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 23:21
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Chuck Boone posted:I remember that a couple of years ago there was a lot of talk in local media about lynching, because the practice seemed to be on the rise. I can't say for sure that it was because I haven't seen any comparative statistics on the issue. It's frightening really how this sort of thing seems to become normalized for people who have just gotten so used to violence being a part of their lives. I saw a documentary some years back where someone was in a slum area in South Africa (it may have been the Louis Theroux episode where he spent time with South African private security companies which were popping up left and right back then and making a killing, and probably still are) and he was talking to a local woman who was angrily, but matter of factly telling him about how a had mob (which she might have been part of from how she was talking about it IIRC) apprehended a suspected thief and burned him to death. I'm wondering how any new government is going to handle the country's crime problem (I think after the food crisis, security and crime was listed as the number one grievance they have among Venezuelans in a poll that was posted in this tthread, and it was actually closer than you'd think). As far as I know it isn't something which can really be placed 100% at the feet of PSUV policies, though I don't think general government corruption and poorly funded public services and infrastructure has heped, the root cause seems to be that Venezueala has become one of South America's primary drug transit countries. But if you have more to share on this I'd be happy to know, because I don't really know enough about the causes and nature of crime in Venezuela other than it's real bad. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Mar 5, 2019 |
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Mar 5, 2019 23:34
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and so we go from "what setting black people on fire" to "the lynchings have no racial component, and suggesting otherwise is ethnocentrism." good talk gang. hey, vvg, remember feeling obliged to defend Libya's "growing pains" post-gadaffi isn't it encouraging to see the venezuelan opposition's supporters trotting out those same defenses well before their guys are even in power, and watching Marco Rubio comparing Maduro to Gadaffi as a threat? does any part of this ring warning bells in your head, out of curiosity
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Mar 5, 2019 23:40
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What if the CIA has actually gotten into Maduros brain and really both sides are just playing out the 3rd act just like the CIA planned. What better way to overthrow a county than to have your own planted villain and hero.
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Mar 5, 2019 23:46
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and so we go from "what setting black people on fire" to "the lynchings have no racial component, and suggesting otherwise is ethnocentrism." good talk gang. You do know that lynchings in south america still happen, right? Its mostly mob violence against a suspected criminal due to breakdowns in the justice system https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/06/brazil-lynch-mobs-vigilante-justice-fortaleza quote:Guardian analysis reveals 173 people have been killed by mobs this year in the country as expert describes ‘a hunt for infection’ amid vulnerable people And this was in 2016. Do you really not know about this stuff?
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Mar 5, 2019 23:52
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and so we go from "what setting black people on fire" to "the lynchings have no racial component, and suggesting otherwise is ethnocentrism." good talk gang. pollack you and I both know that a single incidence of violence isn't enough to condemn an entire movement. like, blaming the protest for the violence that occurs is a pretty "liberal" attitude to have. the structural elements that lead to the protest to occur are where one should look for any blame to be found. A riot is far closer to a natural disaster than a crime of morality.
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Mar 6, 2019 01:22
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the death-squad adjacent community has moved into that heady morass where they discuss the moral mathematics of lynchings.
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Mar 6, 2019 01:54
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jfood posted:the death-squad adjacent community has moved into that heady morass where they discuss the moral mathematics of lynchings. I mean, is there a single faction in this thread that can not be described as the 'death-squad adjacent community'? Seems to be mostly bickering over what flavour you like more, and whether the population should be starved to reduce their bone density and make their skulls more sledgehammerable or whether that's just playing on easy mode.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:07
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A big flaming stink posted:pollack you and I both know that a single incidence of violence isn't enough to condemn an entire movement. like, blaming the protest for the violence that occurs is a pretty "liberal" attitude to have. the structural elements that lead to the protest to occur are where one should look for any blame to be found. i'm quite with you on that! as you may have noticed, though, the arguments being made for intervention are profoundly liberal in nature. and for all that trying to By Your Logic someone is a total waste of time, it is useful to speak to your partners in a language they understand. and the way they recoil when their ideology makes them say "the black guy must have had being set on fire coming, for his presumable criminality," is an instructive shock. which ideally leads to an effort to build a moral calculus more complex than "there is no price too high for Venezuelans to pay, to be rid of Colonel Saddam Maduro." or at least one can dream.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:08
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Darth Walrus posted:I mean, is there a single faction in this thread that can not be described as the 'death-squad adjacent community'? Seems to be mostly bickering over what flavour you like more, and whether the population should be starved to reduce their bone density and make their skulls more sledgehammerable or whether that's just playing on easy mode. well, one side supports the US starving the population and employing a supporter of death squads against them, and the other thinks the US should cut that poo poo out, lift sanctions, send real aid via the UN, and accept venezuelan refugees. it seems to me that only one side in this whole deal is death squad adjacent, and it's yours
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Mar 6, 2019 03:10
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The next time someone asks me why "I dont see race" is dumb and racist I can just link them this thread
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Mar 6, 2019 03:29
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Condiv posted:well, one side supports the US starving the population and employing a supporter of death squads against them, and the other thinks the US should cut that poo poo out, lift sanctions, send real aid via the UN, and accept venezuelan refugees. it seems to me that only one side in this whole deal is death squad adjacent, and it's yours So you want maduro to keep the sanctions in place and refuse any aid? He is the one that has those death squads currently running around murdering protesters in the aftermath of protests and allows soldiers to open fire with live ammo on protesters.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:29
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Condiv posted:well, one side supports the US starving the population and employing a supporter of death squads against them, and the other thinks the US should cut that poo poo out, lift sanctions, send real aid via the UN, and accept venezuelan refugees. it seems to me that only one side in this whole deal is death squad adjacent, and it's yours I mean, that does rather ignore the protesters presently getting hunted down and murdered, the natives getting massacred, and the food shortages that precede sanctions and that the Venezuelan government has refused to accept any significant degree of aid for. Seriously, this is what so much of the outraged screeching about Abrams misses - this poo poo is already happening, and has been happening for years. Literally all that you are threatening is a chance that the status quo will continue. The claims of opposition racism, for instance, ring hollow when Maduro's government has been dealing with an HIV epidemic among the Warao tribe in a way that would make Ronald Reagan proud.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:30
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Darth Walrus posted:I mean, that does rather ignore the protesters presently getting hunted down and murdered, the natives getting massacred, and the food shortages that precede sanctions and that the Venezuelan government has refused to accept any significant degree of aid for. Seriously, this is what so much of the outraged screeching about Abrams misses - this poo poo is already happening, and has been happening for years. Literally all that you are threatening is a chance that the status quo will continue. The claims of opposition racism, for instance, ring hollow when Maduro's government has been dealing with an HIV epidemic among the Warao tribe in a way that would make Ronald Reagan proud.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:34
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Pharohman777 posted:Reading that, it appears multiple native tribes have fled into Columbia and brazil, and they started going over the border a year before the mass refugee movement. Yeah, it looks like they got hit first and hardest when the economy started going sideways.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:36
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420 Gank Mid posted:The next time someone asks me why "I dont see race" is dumb and racist I can just link them this thread Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and the way they recoil when their ideology makes them say "the black guy must have had being set on fire coming, for his presumable criminality," is an instructive shock. If you are referring to the posts I made on that then that's not at all what I've been saying. At this point you are just wilfully misinterpreting what people are saying. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 03:38
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Kurnugia posted:No one ever argued that sanctions would be a cause for an invasion, so no. The argument was and has always been that sanctions, like the appointment of genocidal warmongers in positions of authority, forcing through aid deliveries as political theatre and recognizing Guaido as the legitimate government, are all indicators that have preceded previous US invasions. That's why they're (good) indicators for US aims, because US invasions are always preceded by these moves. And why people you disagree with (or "tankies" as you insist on calling them) keep bringing them up when discussing the likely possibility that the US is planning to invade Venezuela. Since you know, what the US government says it wants or intends to achieve can never ever be trusted for an inch. I would agree that anyone who thinks the Trump administration is handling this well, with a peaceable outcome in mind, is kidding themselves. Recognizing an opposition leader as the legitimate leader of the country was a dead giveaway, because it does little besides empower Maduro's argument that his opposition are U.S. puppets and set up a flimsy pretext for war--which in these kinds of situations historically does not solve the problems with human suffering that it purports to, but actually exacerbates them. It is true that there is a lot of human misery being exported out of Venezuela, and it would be nice if Someone Were to Do Something About All This, but historical and situational indicators are strong that we cannot end it or import stability by force. Above all I do not trust a Trump administration that can't maintain Puerto Rico to buck current trends and help anyone but themselves. There are some interesting chicken/egg arguments on sanctions causing state failure or state failure causing sanctions, I'm sure.
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Mar 6, 2019 03:51
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420 Gank Mid posted:The next time someone asks me why "I dont see race" is dumb and racist I can just link them this thread Oh, eat a dick. Pretending that because lynching in the US has a strong racial undercurrent then all mob executions in countries without that history must also be equally racially motivated is not only insultingly obtuse, it detracts from any discussion about the actual racial problems that the nation does have, and detracts from conversations about the actual causes of that violence (people are starving, impoverished and feel like they lack control over their own lives, and lash out to try to regain that control). Sodomy Hussein posted:I would agree that anyone who thinks the Trump administration is handling this well, with a peaceable outcome in mind, is kidding themselves. Recognizing an opposition leader as the legitimate leader of the country was a dead giveaway, because it does little besides empower Maduro's argument that his opposition are U.S. puppets and set up a flimsy pretext for war--which in these kinds of situations historically does not solve the problems with human suffering that it purports to, but actually exacerbates them. I don't think anyone is saying that, though? People have been saying that Maduro is a monster and most of this problem is of his own making, which is apparently code for "The US is always right and should invade immediately!" in some people's eyes. Like, I can say that Maduro is a fuckstain for refusing aid and still note that the stunt with aid at the border was an awful idea that did nothing to improve the situation, and further now taints any kind of foreign aid with the suggestion that it is politically contingent. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 03:53
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Randarkman posted:If you are referring to the posts I made on that then that's not at all what I've been saying. rest assured: you weren't the person I was referring to on that.
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Mar 6, 2019 04:01
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Pharohman777 posted:So you want maduro to keep the sanctions in place and refuse any aid? He is the one that has those death squads currently running around murdering protesters in the aftermath of protests and allows soldiers to open fire with live ammo on protesters. maduro's not the one "keeping sanctions in place". also, he's not refusing any aid, just "aid" provided by a criminal who's used fake aid for the purposes of regime change before. as for the rest of your post, it doesn't apply to me since I'm not interventionist. go ahead and remain death-squad adjacent though pharoahman Darth Walrus posted:I mean, that does rather ignore the protesters presently getting hunted down and murdered, the natives getting massacred, and the food shortages that precede sanctions and that the Venezuelan government has refused to accept any significant degree of aid for. Seriously, this is what so much of the outraged screeching about Abrams misses - this poo poo is already happening, and has been happening for years. Literally all that you are threatening is a chance that the status quo will continue. The claims of opposition racism, for instance, ring hollow when Maduro's government has been dealing with an HIV epidemic among the Warao tribe in a way that would make Ronald Reagan proud. food shortages are not an intentional act like deletarious sanctions that intensify said shortages. likewise, saying "this poo poo is already happening" is a bullshit justification for supporting the intensification of "this poo poo happening". maduro may be a bad guy, but getting abrams into the mix can only make things worse. and your side is the one advocating for abrams, and bolton, and all the other crazy US warmongers get involved in venezuela
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Mar 6, 2019 04:11
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Recognizing the national assembly as the legitimate sovereign allows countries that have been repositories for offshored or stolen Venezuelan accounts to transfer control of those assets to the national assembly. We know that the food shortage was the direct, immediately obvious result of kleptocratic policies of Maduro and his party. They weren't an intentional act in the same way that torching your house and draining your bank accounts doesn't intentionally leave you destitute. Maduro has refused to acknowledge that a food shortage even exists, and has blocked all international aid until the last few months. Again, we know this, and we know you know this. You're just being disingenuous. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 04:13
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Condiv posted:maduro's not the one "keeping sanctions in place". also, he's not refusing any aid, just "aid" provided by a criminal who's used fake aid for the purposes of regime change before. as for the rest of your post, it doesn't apply to me since I'm not interventionist. go ahead and remain death-squad adjacent though pharoahman ...But we are advocating for the national assembly and protesters, as we have since the start of the thread. You seem to think that supporting them means advocating for war.
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Mar 6, 2019 04:22
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Pharohman777 posted:...But we are advocating for the national assembly and protesters, as we have since the start of the thread. You seem to think that supporting them means advocating for war. the national assembly has allied itself with bolsanaro, abrams, trump, and bolton. so yeah, advocating for them as they work with a pack of murderous ghouls is advocating for poo poo to get worse in venezuela you can't just say the national assembly doesn't have anything to do with the US war machine when they're actively courting it
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Mar 6, 2019 04:25
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Condiv posted:well, one side supports the US starving the population and employing a supporter of death squads against them, and the other thinks the US should cut that poo poo out, lift sanctions, send real aid via the UN, and accept venezuelan refugees. it seems to me that only one side in this whole deal is death squad adjacent, and it's yours It is very interesting how one decides the starvation performed by Venezuela government for past 5 year does not matter. It reminds heavily of how British genocide-famines in India get called just unfortunate coincidence by defenders of Churchill. To say nothing of the Maduro government death squad gangs hired as "armed collectives" I believe is translation. Also interesting to see, that your proposal is not that Maduro stop creating refugee, just that one specific country should accept more of them.
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Mar 6, 2019 04:27
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Condiv posted:maduro's not the one "keeping sanctions in place". also, he's not refusing any aid, just "aid" provided by a criminal who's used fake aid for the purposes of regime change before. as for the rest of your post, it doesn't apply to me since I'm not interventionist. go ahead and remain death-squad adjacent though pharoahman And you know that the situation will be worsened because of your detailed understanding of the present situation of the Venezuelan populace, I'm sure. Is it really so hard to imagine that a murderous, corrupt racist promising food might be preferable to the murderous, corrupt racist who's been blocking food imports and destroying agriculture for years? Again, Maduro has been imposing sanctions on his country for far longer than anyone else has, and the bloody reign of Elliot Abrams would at least mean that nobody within or without Venezuela would have a reason to block food imports. Your preferred course of action, meanwhile, keeps the country in the hands of someone who is entirely willing to starve it regardless of international pressure. Maduro has literally been killing his people for years and threatening or outright attacking anyone who tries to convince him otherwise. There is literally no salvation for Venezuela so long as he's in power, because national starvation is official policy. When someone is presently on the road to killing every last soul in their country, save those wealthy enough to escape, a mere brutal authoritarian seems positively benign.
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Mar 6, 2019 04:28
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nepetaMisekiryoiki posted:It is very interesting how one decides the starvation performed by Venezuela government for past 5 year does not matter. It reminds heavily of how British genocide-famines in India get called just unfortunate coincidence by defenders of Churchill. To say nothing of the Maduro government death squad gangs hired as "armed collectives" I believe is translation. i don't think it doesn't matter, I just think the US should get out cause the US has hosed up almost every country it's intervened in, and I absolutely do not believe trump, abrams, bolton and pence are going to change that record. and on that note, the US's current intervention is worsening the starvation, so again, the US should stop that. I know that saying that gets in the way of loving guaido, since the US is making things harder on the people of venezuela to help him become president, but that's just facts Darth Walrus posted:And you know that the situation will be worsened because of your detailed understanding of the present situation of the Venezuelan populace, I'm sure. Is it really so hard to imagine that a murderous, corrupt racist promising food might be preferable to the murderous, corrupt racist who's been blocking food imports and destroying agriculture for years? Again, Maduro has been imposing sanctions on his country for far longer than anyone else has, and the bloody reign of Elliot Abrams would at least mean that nobody within or without Venezuela would have a reason to block food imports. Your preferred course of action, meanwhile, keeps the country in the hands of someone who is entirely willing to starve it regardless of international pressure. Maduro has literally been killing his people for years and threatening or outright attacking anyone who tries to convince him otherwise. There is literally no salvation for Venezuela so long as he's in power, because national starvation is official policy. the "murdering corrupt racist promising food" is working with a government which is very intentionally making food more scarce, and his supporters burned the food he was supposedly going to give the US is not going to bring salvation to venezuela, stop pretending it is. though i guess that will be hard for you since you think "the bloody reign of elliot abrams" would be preferable to venezuela as it is today Condiv fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 04:35
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Condiv posted:i don't think it doesn't matter, I just think the US should get out cause the US has hosed up almost every country it's intervened in. and on that note, the US's current intervention is worsening the starvation, so again, the US should stop that. OK, explain to me why those sanctions will remain in place once Maduro is removed, and what realistic paths there are to convince Maduro to let any useful measure of food in while he remains in power. It's been mentioned multiple times that he's refused any more than token aid from pretty much every major humanitarian organisation, not just the US, and has been doing this since well before Abrams got his job. The collapse of the Venezuelan agriculture sector also predates any US action, and can be pretty directly linked to PSUV government policies. I mean, Christ, the guy has actively tried to prevent research and treatment of disease epidemics in his own country. Besides, do we know the caravan escorts burned their own supplies? We have footage of them throwing Molotovs and the police firing tear gas canisters near the trucks at pretty much exactly the same time, and journalists on the scene offer completely different stories of what they saw. Seems like the sort of thing where we really don't have the evidence to jump to conclusions. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Mar 6, 2019 |
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Mar 6, 2019 04:41
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Rust Martialis posted:Guaido *is* the legitimate and constitutional head of the government of Venezuela at this point until the NEC arranges new Presidential elections. I understand a number of other countries have recognized this new state of affairs. He isn't.
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Mar 6, 2019 04:47
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Darth Walrus posted:OK, explain to me why those sanctions will remain in place once Maduro is removed, and what realistic paths there are to convince Maduro to let any useful measure of food in while he remains in power. It's been mentioned multiple times that he's refused any more than token aid from pretty much every major humanitarian organisation, not just the US, and has been doing this since well before Abrams got his job. I think you're skipping a step darth walrus. until maduro is removed, the venezuelan people will be starved more and more, while abrams and co keep making poo poo worse. again, this is your fantasy land as per last post: quote:The Reagan administrations strategy was quite simple in, all three countries-they would try to defeat all three revolutionary movements by force. Death squads were used in El Salvador. In Guatemala, a “strategic hamlet” project was established, based on the Phoenix Program in Vietnam in the 60’s; it basically cordoned off villages so that complete surveillance could take place over entire communities. Or they razed entire villages and murdered all of its inhabitants. In Nicaragua, a counter-revolutionary army was raised out of the remnants of the Somaza National Guard. They were funded by the US and terrorized and murdered anyone that would ally with the revolution. This included the destruction of hospitals, water treatment programs and the assassination of teachers, health workers and US citizens. welcome to abram's bloody reign. sounds much nicer than a place where an opposition leader can walk around untouched, despite having declared himself the rightful leader of the country and having offering amnesty to military members who defect. as for asking me how we should intervene in venezuela, i already gave you my answer: Condiv posted:I'm not interventionist
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Mar 6, 2019 04:51
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Condiv posted:I think you're skipping a step darth walrus. until maduro is removed, the venezuelan people will be starved more and more, while abrams and co keep making poo poo worse. again, this is your fantasy land as per last post: The question is how much capacity Abrams and company actually have to make things worse, given that Maduro's government has spent years frantically decoupling the country's economy from the pockets of the public, blocking any opportunity for the citizenry to feed themselves, and going 'I will hurt you if you try to make this my problem' over national health emergencies. As for your implication that the opposition is perfectly safe, did you forget about how Guiado literally had two of his senior aides poisoned a couple of weeks back, one fatally?
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Mar 6, 2019 05:02
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