|
Guavanaut posted:In the grim darkness of the not so distant future, the forever war will be between electronic plagiarism detectors and AI essay mills, and any learning that occurs will be entirely tangential to this process. The AI quickly learns that the best way to defeat the plagiarism detectors is to come up with original work. Within a week, all research is completed and no mysteries remain E: belleh 
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 06:08 |
|
|
education is mostly collateral damage but that's okay because on a societal level it's worth burning the time of 90% of the class for the 10% of people that actually do something with it. would that we could find that 10% at age five rather than fifty
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:30
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Until I got to university, education was literally 100% about passing tests. I didn't actually learn anything and I can't remember anything I studied. It was just put useless information in head, pour information out of head onto paper at end of year. Which is entirely useless in this day and age when I can just google whatever information I need. Oh hi are you me? I literally didn't learn to actually learn stuff until I was at Master's level. And I've literally never used anything I learned at University. With the wisdom of hindsight, I really wish I'd done something practical instead, I'd probably not have a mortgage any more if I'd been a plumber.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:31
|
|
|
JeremoudCorbynejad posted:The AI quickly learns that the best way to defeat the plagiarism detectors is to come up with original work. Within a week, all research is completed and no mysteries remain Given how machine learning works it's probably more likely to develop a particular form of garbled nonsense that the plagiarism detector believes is brilliantly insightful and within a week Alex Jones's nightmares finally come to fruition as he is replaced by a computer. thespaceinvader posted:Oh hi are you me? No joke I find myself increasingly wishing that I'd been exposed to some sort of practical skill when I was a kid cos I think my life would have been very different. The only experience I had with DT was in mid secondary school and it was all sitting in the machine shop doing technical drawings rather than playing with the machines so I hated it and immediately dropped it. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 10:33 on Mar 6, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:31
|
|
|
It depends if any human eyes are involved in the process at any point. if the essays also have to be marked and marked well, by humans, then there's a whole mess of external factors the AIs can't account for. If it was just AIs, I'd assume the AI essays would quickly become either entirely random streams of words/letters (particularly if there was a length requirement), or they'd just start returning empty files because empty files can't match anything.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:34
|
|
|
JeremoudCorbynejad posted:The AI quickly learns that the best way to defeat the plagiarism detectors is to come up with original work. Within a week, all research is completed and no mysteries remain Academia 2035: amphisbaena amphisbaena amphisbaena amphisbaena amphisbaena amphisbaena amphisbaena e: OwlFancier posted:Given how machine learning works it's probably more likely to develop a particular form of garbled nonsense that the plagiarism detector believes is brilliantly insightful and within a week Alex Jones's nightmares finally come to fruition as he is replaced by a computer. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:34
|
|
|
Guavanaut posted:e: ^^ 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:35
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:No joke I find myself increasingly wishing that I'd been exposed to some sort of practical skill when I was a kid cos I think my life would have been very different. The only experience I had with DT was in mid secondary school and it was all sitting in the machine shop doing technical drawings rather than playing with the machines so I hated it and immediately dropped it. I'm genuinely in the process of starting up a side gig making stuff by hand and am seriously considering trying to get into production prop-making. It's so much more satisfying than any admin role I've ever done. The university treadmill is genuinely harming people's prospects at this point, and it's a captialist problem. The longer you can keep people in education, especially higher eduction, the more money you can get out of them before you have to start paying them.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:36
|
|
|
[quote="Vlex" post="493129131"] Desperate people do desperate, silly things, like copy a wikipedia page and not change any words, because in their mind submitting something (anything) is better than not meeting the expectations of the figure of authority. They're wrong, of course, but the answer is to provide adequate support and a framework in which they can develop as scholars. /quote] Yeah, you're right, usually the best thing is talking to the student if you catch them in the act anyway instead of jumping to conclusions.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:36
|
|
|
Thanks for all the book recs, I went with Secret State in the end cause I really enjoyed Command and Control but I've made a note of the other stuff for next time. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:39
|
|
|
Given this thread loves project binky and is apparently half composed of academics and half machinists, at least half of you should enjoy this which combines machining + dad jokes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ngNtK9tKME
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:42
|
|
|
Nam Taf posted:Brexit was always a choice between “do we see significant price increases to many products for a decade or more, or do we shoot our manufacturing industry?” It'll be a mercy killing, really, considering it's already been gutted.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:42
|
|
|
Pilchenstein posted:Thanks for all the book recs, I went with Secret State in the end cause I really enjoyed Command and Control but I've made a note of the other stuff for next time. Secret State is great but you'll finish it with a feeling that we did actually all die around 1968 and this is just a mass hallucination, because it seems a more plausible explanation than us actually surviving the sheer lunacy on display there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:43
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:Given this thread loves project binky and is apparently half composed of academics and half machinists, at least half of you should enjoy this which combines machining + dad jokes. This Old Tony is great but not a favourite of mine. I have a list of woodworking youtubes a mile long though if anyone cares.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:43
|
|
|
Vlex posted:So it doesn't matter if people don't do the work, as long as they...do the...work? It matters for someone's grades if they do no work at all, whether they plagiarize or not. This does not make plagiarism bad in itself. A a plagiarist may have sufficient critical skills already, plus an ability to prioritise their time effectively.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:50
|
|
|
I enjoyed this, especially "The Confederate flag has been a symbol of racism for a long time, but when the Civil War started and the Cvil War ended, many people suddenly began to see it differently."thespaceinvader posted:The university treadmill is genuinely harming people's prospects at this point, and it's a captialist problem. The longer you can keep people in education, especially higher eduction, the more money you can get out of them before you have to start paying them. Plagiarism at high school level is a totally different thing to plagiarism at a university level. High school you're doing a bunch of different subjects, some of which you'll be good at, some you'll be bad at, some you'll be interested in, some you won't. You can draw your own Boston matrix out of that, but under those circumstances copying from the good at chemistry person for chemistry and letting them copy from you for geography can be considered a skill in itself. It's far more like what you'll be doing in the real world than becoming good at paper tests for a dozen different subjects taught in half hour blocks, and if anything secondary education should be based more around things where 'plagiarism' means 'actually getting good at the thing'. Not just woodwork as I said above, but how to manage group projects without one person doing all the work, how to convince and influence, and yeah, how to find poo poo online, verify it (this is important), and copy it. Plagiarism at a university level, especially where it's students buying essays from essay mills, seems like a different beast. One that academia definitely fed and nurtured when they commodified further education, but one that's probably detrimental to something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:53
|
|
|
I wish A levels actually prepared you for how you're supposed to work at University. Not everyone who is able to go to University hits the ground running when they get there. I struggled for the first couple of years because no one ever explained that most of the learning was done outside of the lectures, and they were just there to point you in the right direction. I was never taught how to go about doing my own research or asking for help or how to actually get started looking into a topic. Pretty much the only thing I was taught beforehand was to use Oxford referencing style. I finally got it together in the final year but those first two years were pretty isolating and lovely from an academic perspective.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:57
|
|
|
It goes in two ways. if you're at uni because you have to be to get a job, versus if you're at uni because you want to be, to learn about a subject. (And the latter is probably not as useful as it's made out to be, because in order to get any use out of that subject you probably have to do a master's, if not a doctorate in many fields) I'd honestly argue that an awful lot of academia has been rendered pointless by search engines, now. Unless you're doing original research or confirmation studies for original research, it's a much more valuable practical skill to be able to find information than it is to learn and remember it. Like it's a much more valuable skill to be able to input a calculation into excel and sense-check that the answer it's giving is correct, than it is to be able to do that calculation by hand. But the people writing the curricula haven't caught up with this concept yet.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 10:59
|
|
|
goddamnedtwisto posted:Secret State is great but you'll finish it with a feeling that we did actually all die around 1968 and this is just a mass hallucination, because it seems a more plausible explanation than us actually surviving the sheer lunacy on display there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:00
|
|
|
Oh dear me posted:It matters for someone's grades if they do no work at all, whether they plagiarize or not. This does not make plagiarism bad in itself. A a plagiarist may have sufficient critical skills already, plus an ability to prioritise their time effectively. The #1 way to reliably and systematically assess whether a cohort possesses a given skill or understanding of a topic is a standardised test of knowledge and/or ability. Contrary to the trendy feel-good ~*unique learning styles*~ stuff that came into vogue about 10 years ago (which is in the process of being debunked), there is no substitute for this. A lot of people will read that, cross-reference it with their university experience, and think I mean that essays and exams are the gold standard. This is not true any longer - many of the good lecturers I know go to great lengths to innovate in learning techniques beyond the lecture-essay-exam format for courses. One of the very few, probably unintended, upsides of the commodification of HE is that learning outcomes, course syllabuses, and marking criteria have becomes extremely explicit and clearly laid out, in theory making it easier than ever for students to get a good mark.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:03
|
|
|
Also disappointed that nobody has https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL4vWJbwmqM
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:19
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:The university treadmill is genuinely harming people's prospects at this point, and it's a captialist problem. The longer you can keep people in education, especially higher eduction, the more money you can get out of them before you have to start paying them. Yeah, I think a big point of where we're getting sidetracked is from Coohoolin's original post "plagiarism is considered a totally normally and fine thing to do at a high school or university level". Plagiarism at high school level is a totally different thing to plagiarism at a university level. High school you're doing a bunch of different subjects, some of which you'll be good at, some you'll be bad at, some you'll be interested in, some you won't. You can draw your own Boston matrix out of that, but under those circumstances copying from the good at chemistry person for chemistry and letting them copy from you for geography can be considered a skill in itself. It's far more like what you'll be doing in the real world than becoming good at paper tests for a dozen different subjects taught in half hour blocks, and if anything secondary education should be based more around things where 'plagiarism' means 'actually getting good at the thing'. Not just woodwork as I said above, but how to manage group projects without one person doing all the work, how to convince and influence, and yeah, how to find poo poo online, verify it (this is important), and copy it. Plagiarism at a university level, especially where it's students buying essays from essay mills, seems like a different beast. One that academia definitely fed and nurtured when they commodified further education, but one that's probably detrimental to something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:28
|
|
|
I just found a list of rules and regulations at work and I'd love to meet whoever caused them to put "don't invigilate exams while wearing flip-flops" in writing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:34
|
|
|
Seems the negotiations went about as well as a fifty metre dive into boiling water https://twitter.com/DanielBoffey/status/1103234035273420800
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:34
|
|
|
Myself and 6 others got hauled up in uni for plagiarism, the course was programming basic and we'd all submitted near identical source code. Of course those who submitted something sufficiently different didn't have a working program. After a little careful arguing we all got sent away with a "we're watching you, don't put a foot out of line ever, we know your sort", because no one in academia will ever admit they're wrong. (We didn't plagarise anything, but if you made working code of course it would look nearly identical) thespaceinvader posted:This Old Tony is great but not a favourite of mine. I have a list of woodworking youtubes a mile long though if anyone cares. Please share.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:36
|
|
|
cakesmith handyman posted:Myself and 6 others got hauled up in uni for plagiarism, the course was programming basic and we'd all submitted near identical source code. Of course those who submitted something sufficiently different didn't have a working program. After a little careful arguing we all got sent away with a "we're watching you, don't put a foot out of line ever, we know your sort", because no one in academia will ever admit they're wrong. Rarity posted:Plagiarism at high school level is a totally different thing to plagiarism at a university level. High school you're doing a bunch of different subjects, some of which you'll be good at, some you'll be bad at, some you'll be interested in, some you won't.  
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:42
|
|
|
that's missing "lol this is dumb and I'm interested in taking it further" which is basically The Goonilla Mindset
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:43
|
|
|
cakesmith handyman posted:Please share. Matthias Wandel is great and has a huge back catalogue but isn't that active right now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=user?Matthiaswandel Frank Howarth is chill as gently caress and does some very cool turning projects https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=user?urbanTrash? I suspect you have probably seen Jimmy Diresta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=user?jimmydiresta Bob Claggett too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=user?iliketomakestuffcom That's a few of the best for now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:43
|
|
|
Vlex posted:The #1 way to reliably and systematically assess whether a cohort possesses a given skill or understanding of a topic is a standardised test of knowledge and/or ability. You're not arguing with anything anyone has said now, I think. Horror of plagiarism is indeed driven by the need to grade people (and grew as coursework took over from exams).
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:44
|
|
|
Vlex posted:The #1 way to reliably and systematically assess whether a cohort possesses a given skill or understanding of a topic is a standardised test of knowledge and/or ability. Contrary to the trendy feel-good ~*unique learning styles*~ stuff that came into vogue about 10 years ago (which is in the process of being debunked), there is no substitute for this. This just isn’t true in the way you portray. The advantages of standardised testing is that it’s scalable to a large population for the purposes of comparing individual performance, which is only good in the context of a system that thinks an individual’s specific performance compared to other individuals in the same context is the purpose of education, i.e., educational qualifications as an economic signal. This is not the only purpose of education, and even if it were, the reality is that almost all economic activity does not happen in isolated contexts, so the cross-applicability is dubious. The problem then becomes how you can scale a better assessment to a bigger population, and given that there are frameworks for that, it’s really a question of educational funding rather than one of “there’s no substitute”.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:45
|
|
|
cakesmith handyman posted:Myself and 6 others got hauled up in uni for plagiarism, the course was programming basic and we'd all submitted near identical source code. Of course those who submitted something sufficiently different didn't have a working program. After a little careful arguing we all got sent away with a "we're watching you, don't put a foot out of line ever, we know your sort", because no one in academia will ever admit they're wrong. Verbose and creatively sweary //comments are your friend here. Everyone on my course knew when a piece of code was mine because minimum 50% of the text was me losing my poo poo on the right hand side of the page in an attempt to make sense of things.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:48
|
|
|
thespaceinvader posted:
I'm familiar with the others but I'll check Howarth out, thanks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:49
|
|
|
Pilchenstein posted:I just found a list of rules and regulations at work and I'd love to meet whoever caused them to put "don't invigilate exams while wearing flip-flops" in writing. Tbf if the invigilator is particularly given to wander around and those flip flops are slapping away, that'd be the exact kind of thing I'd find not only distracting but enraging
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:52
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:56
|
|
|
incredible that the government have decided immediately after brexit is the time to implement a feature on porn sites requiring bank details as proof of age https://news.sky.com/story/porn-websites-to-check-uk-users-ages-as-law-passes-11604331
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:56
|
|
|
This is good
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:57
|
|
|
I have no idea what's going on with this but I have a sudden impulse to burn everything
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 11:58
|
|
|
Rarity posted:I have no idea what's going on with this but I have a sudden impulse to burn everything The true Sumerian bloodline died out with the Norman invasion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 12:01
|
|
|
Liz fought the nazis so she gets a pass.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 12:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 11, 2024 06:08 |
|
|
Rarity posted:I have no idea what's going on with this but I have a sudden impulse to burn everything SlateStar/Scott Alexander suffers from the Liberalism, but he's done some solid takedowns of the dork enlightenment neoreactionaries and the purestrain gold libertarians.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2019 12:02
|
|