FINAL FANTASY XIV: Stormblood

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Hyper Inferno: Jun 11, 2015

I came from a different MMO experience where it was the most normal thing in the world to CC chain the mob the party wasn't currently killing in a pack because most tank/healer combos couldn't survive tanking multiple mobs. There's a room in Stone Vigil NM with 2 Ice Sprites and 2 of those bird mobs that I remember skipping while leveling unless we explicitly had a WHM or BLM in the party to sleep the birds because the room almost always caused a wipe otherwise.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 16:44

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# ? May 21, 2024 06:35

Emalde: May 3, 2007; Just a cage of bones, there's nothing inside.

Vitamean posted:

A lot of mobs in BA are susceptible to some form of CC, but it's mostly used to interrupt things like centaurs casting Berserk.

Yeah but these same monsters are by and large also susceptible to Death (as in the skill) so it's a bit of a wash in terms of mechanical demand :shrug:

Marathanes posted:

Yeah, extreme 4 mans wouldn't be for everyone, but I think it'd be more popular than most might think. Especially because you know they'll gate some content/reward behind it.

In general this is what Deep Dungeons are supposed to be :v:

# ? Mar 6, 2019 16:45

IcePhoenix: Sep 18, 2005; Take me to your Shida

Relax Or DIE posted:

Also, how hard is it to do Susano/Lakshmi ex with randoms now? I haven't done them since SB launch and I figure I might try to pick up a dog or two before SB comes out.

I would assume it's pretty easy as long as everyone knows the fight, and if you're in a farm party then the odds are pretty good that they do. The minimum ilvl for those fights is 300 and people are pushing 400 now so...

# ? Mar 6, 2019 16:47

Truga: May 4, 2014; Lipstick Apathy

Marathanes posted:

Yeah, extreme 4 mans wouldn't be for everyone, but I think it'd be more popular than most might think. Especially because you know they'll gate some content/reward behind it.

I'd love more extreme 4man content, but not if it means I get to use my aoe poo poo even less. It already barely registers outside dungeon pulls.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 16:47

Phone: Jul 30, 2005; 親子丼をほしい。

Relax Or DIE posted:

Speaking of difficulty, with the casual stuff taking a step up in challenge the last couple of patches I hope they keep it up for SB. I know it'll probably dip for leveling stuff but once you hit 80 I'd like it to start closer to where it is now than where the first level 70 stuff is at.

Also, how hard is it to do Susano/Lakshmi ex with randoms now? I haven't done them since SB launch and I figure I might try to pick up a dog or two before SB comes out.

Lakshmi is a joke these days.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 16:48

IcePhoenix: Sep 18, 2005; Take me to your Shida

Also I would love some extreme 4 mans but they need to give DPS crowd control options (outside of short stuns) instead of leaving it to the healer if they go that route.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 16:48

Zodiac5000: Jun 19, 2006; Protects the Pack!; Doctor Rope

I wish this game would adopt WoW's mythic+ system or WoW would adopt this games duty roulette system. I haven't stepped foot inside a max level dungeon since... uh, the story made me go there, I guess.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 16:54

Phone: Jul 30, 2005; 親子丼をほしい。

Just... queue for 70DR? :psyduck:

# ? Mar 6, 2019 17:04

Captain Oblivious: Oct 12, 2007; I'm not like other posters

Marathanes posted:

The need for CC is something I struggle with honestly. I know a lot of people prefer just bulldozing and AoE'ing everything, and that can be / often is enjoyable. I think it works for story and optional dungeons, because a lot of folks just want their tomes as fast as possible.

That said, and I think some others have posited something like this in the past, I kind of wish we had (Extreme) 4 man dungeons where full pack pulling wasn't an option and where CC needed to be utilized in order to break up packs. It's slower, true, and not everyone likes that, but there was a tactical sort of thinking that went into tackling those kinds of situations in Vanilla WoW that I found kind of enjoyable. Many non-tank classes have some sort of CC (BLM, WHM, RDM, BRD, MCH, SMN), though certain classes do have rather limited (AST) or no options (SCH, most of the melee DPS).

I guess what I'm saying is some variety would be nice, rather than just murdertraining every 4 man. Also bring back dungeons that aren't just long hallways (loved BRD back in the day)(this will never happen).

The Masked Carnivale is there for you friend. If you want to get all tactical on mobs that�s pretty much the content for it.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 17:17

Scaly Haylie: Dec 25, 2004

I was a lalafell in 2.X before the glamour system, and I liked to heal dungeons in nothing but my right side and a reindeer suit, because that was more than enough for me to heal.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 17:17

Leraika: Jun 14, 2015; Luckily, I *did* save your old avatar. Fucked around and found out indeed.

Relax Or DIE posted:

Speaking of difficulty, with the casual stuff taking a step up in challenge the last couple of patches I hope they keep it up for SB. I know it'll probably dip for leveling stuff but once you hit 80 I'd like it to start closer to where it is now than where the first level 70 stuff is at.

Also, how hard is it to do Susano/Lakshmi ex with randoms now? I haven't done them since SB launch and I figure I might try to pick up a dog or two before SB comes out.

I haven't farmed Susano recently, but Lakshmi is easy as long as you have an OT that knows what they're doing; literally everything but the OT pointing green at the party can be compensated for at this point.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 17:49

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

I like the idea of CC, but not the general implementation of "this mob is now 100% removed from the fight until you wake it up". This sort of hard CC is really dull and non-interactive to me. Things like slowing an enemy so they can be kited are a lot more fun. There's a dungeon in WoW's recent expansion where the last few pulls give you access to a cannon to fire, but it also does friendly fire so it's hard to use in the fight itself - so you can score some free damage if you can slow the enemies down as they run to your party since it gives you more time to fire.

It's been a while so I might have the details wrong but that sort of CC is cooler to me than "just completely ignore this enemy for 30 seconds". It'd also have to be used sparingly to not be tedious but like, okay.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 17:54

Bobfly: Apr 22, 2007; EGADS!

Truga posted:

OTOH, CC being relevant in 4mans would meant that all enemies must survive long enough to be dangerous, and be dangerous enough individually to warrant CC.

So, basically, eureka hp sponge chain grind, but the whm has to sleep between healing. Sounds bad to me idk

When you put it like that, I agree completely, but you could theoretically balance it with fewer pulls / mobs overall.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 18:57

Minera: Sep 26, 2007; All your friends and foes,
they thought they knew ya,
but look who's in your heart now.

the only time i've played an mmo where 4/5 man dungeon content required hard cc and slower pulls, the content was at an all time low in popularity and the player base hated it

hp sponges and dividing trash into 12 pulls instead of 3 are just bad, dumb ideas

# ? Mar 6, 2019 19:17

Zodiac5000: Jun 19, 2006; Protects the Pack!; Doctor Rope

Phone posted:

Just... queue for 70DR?

Yeah, but none of those are difficult, nor do they have gear that would be an upgrade for anything other than like... my backup backup backup job. If the game adopted a mechanic that made it harder and the gear drops better (i.e. Mythic+ system) it would be nice!

edit - conversely, I wish WoW had a mechanic to make me go back and do older content more often at a not 'curbstomp in 1 hit' difficulty, like trials or normal raid roulette. Both games should just rip each other off harder in that regard.

Zodiac5000 fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Mar 6, 2019

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:00

Thundarr: Dec 24, 2002

Requiring hard cc is dumb.

Giving interesting and varied cc options so parties with different compositions can approach content in different ways is really good. You kind of have to design the game at a very basic level to allow for that though.

Once again I find myself missing CoH.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:02

Harrow: Jun 30, 2012

You really do have to design a game's combat system from the ground up for CC to be relevant for it to be a fun thing. Hard CCs that just remove an enemy from the fight for a moment aren't all that fun and feel like busywork, but the way WoW-style MMO combat works also makes it tough to implement actually interesting forms of CC that actually matter.

It's something I wouldn't ever expect to see in FFXIV, for example, but when games actually pull off making it count it's pretty cool.

Phone posted:

Just... queue for 70DR?

That's not really the same, though. Something like the Mythic+ system would let you run harder versions of level 60-70 dungeons (maybe with modifiers that make things less predictable) and get better loot than you could just running the normal versions. Given how the game works, it probably wouldn't give Savage-tier raid loot, but maybe loot on par with the alliance raids.

Really it'd just be a way to have legitimately challenging 4-player stuff to do alongside the 8- and 24-player endgame stuff, really just for a different experience or for people who prefer that sort of thing over raids.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:15

Bolow: Feb 27, 2007

It's called trash for a reason, no one cares about and no one wants to do it. You think you do but I guarantee you by run #30 you'd rather just loving aoe everything down and move on with your life.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:18

Zodiac5000: Jun 19, 2006; Protects the Pack!; Doctor Rope

Yeah, it'd probably cap out somewhere at like 390 or so, I guess? Keep the Savage tier stuff on it's own. I do shudder to think of what kind of affixes they'd go with. People could definitely live out their AoE fantasies if they stole teeming.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:18

Harrow: Jun 30, 2012

Yeah, having <insert non-Mythic+ term here> dungeons with loot that's on par with alliance raids and then maybe leaderboards for clear times would be pretty cool. I'm all for having endgame content that caters to multiple tastes.

Right now FFXIV is still pretty good about that. Normal-level raids are pretty accessible, as are alliance raids, and then there are Savage raids for people who want really challenging 8-player stuff. Challenging 4-player stuff would be a nice expansion to that if it ever came about, especially if it had a different goal and a different pace (like racing for speed clear times and stuff like that).

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:26

homeless snail: Mar 14, 2007

The way itemization is in this game, the only way something like that could work is if it was the new relic. Or had some other reward structure than gear upgrades idk.

More than anything though I just would like to see some of the better old instances that no longer have meaningful mechanics get brought up to cap. If there was additional difficulty beyond that it would be cool also

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:32

isk: Oct 3, 2007; You don't want me owing you

Speaking strictly for myself, I'm good with FFXIV's dungeons and I'd hate adding modifiers/granular item progression. IMO WoW strains under the weight of its progression systems that seem to change every expansion (and bug out in every patch), and I think what sets FFXIV apart is that it's leaner without feeling sparse on content.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:34

Zodiac5000: Jun 19, 2006; Protects the Pack!; Doctor Rope

I don't think Mythic+ works without the timer. If you take away the 'CLEAR AS FAST AS POSSIBLE' motivation from it it just becomes an exercise in 'CC all but one mob, burn down one mob, repeat'. The most fun part of mythic+ is when I'm tanking, I see a pack that has like eight mobs, and I think to myself "We probably should CC like two of these mobs, but then we're getting kinda close to the timer and I want that bonus 5 item levels..." Making trash interesting content was the best possible thing WoW could have done with dungeons and I wish 14 would follow suit. Almost all the trash in mythics have either a tankbuster or a dispellable magic buff they selfcast or do interruptable big damage aoe spells or whatever it makes the dungeon a whole lot more engaging than 'run down corridor, spam aoe, fight boss, repeat 3x'.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:34

Thundarr: Dec 24, 2002

Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hardest Mode)

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:35

homeless snail: Mar 14, 2007

Thundarr posted:

Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hardest Mode)

It's finally time... for Aurum Vale HM

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:37

Zodiac5000: Jun 19, 2006; Protects the Pack!; Doctor Rope

Toto-Rak (Hydaelyn's Champion level 6 - suffix: No Job Crystals)

I'd play it.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:38

Red Alert 2 Yuris Revenge: May 8, 2006; "My brain is amazing! It's full of wrinkles, and... Uh... Wait... What am I trying to say?"

homeless snail posted:

It's finally time... for Aurum Vale HM

Aurum Vale Ultimate just has every mob moved to the first room.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:39

World War Mammories: Aug 25, 2006

Zodiac5000 posted:

Toto-Rak (Hydaelyn's Champion level 6 - suffix: No Job Crystals)

I'd play it.

unf

it is kind of an interesting thought experiment to imagine what affixes might actually exist in this hypothetical FF14 mythic ripoff. looking at a list on wowhead, most could probably be imported wholesale - teeming is just more adds, bursting is trash exploding on death kinda like the dragon add in o10s, fortified and tyrannical are just hp/damage buffs to trash/bosses respectively, raging makes trash deal double damage below 30% health...

# ? Mar 6, 2019 20:48

Thumbtacks: Apr 3, 2013

No telegraphs

# ? Mar 6, 2019 21:01

An Actual Princess: Dec 23, 2006

Thundarr posted:

Once again I find myself missing GW1.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 21:04

Orcs and Ostriches: Aug 26, 2010; The Great Twist

The best CC is murder, and going back to the days of 'sheep X, sleep O, sap Square, Shamans gently caress off' just sounds dire.

Leave the gimmicks to the bosses. Let the trash train between them get steamrolled by a muderball.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 21:53

Nyagato: Apr 6, 2009

Why even run a dungeon if I can't holy 12 mobs at a time?

# ? Mar 6, 2019 22:12

HackensackBackpack: Aug 20, 2007; Who needs a house out in Hackensack? Is that all you get for your money?

Relax Or DIE posted:

Aurum Vale Ultimate just has every mob moved to the first room.

And you're still capped at level 49.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 22:18

Rainuwastaken: Oct 30, 2012; Another blue ribbon for Hecarim.

Say what you will about Blue Mage, but the special objectives for clearing missions that rotate every week are interesting and I wonder if they'll ever make it into other content.

# ? Mar 6, 2019 22:19

World War Mammories: Aug 25, 2006

Thumbtacks posted:

No telegraphs

I like the way you're thinking

no job crystals, no telegraphs, numerical increases of both mob density/strength and boss strength, I really like the idea of this "Overflowing" affix that turns overheal into a heal absorption shield, maybe some boss attacks have a threat reset added in, or all trash telegraphs increased in size... that last one especially would probably break at least one dungeon, but gently caress it

# ? Mar 6, 2019 22:30