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Tuxedo Catfish posted:In fairness, I suspect that a small cadre of extremely committed enthusiasts having more sway is good for game design for nearly the same reasons it's bad for politics. It probably depends on what they're committed to
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Mar 6, 2019 19:32
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gradenko_2000 posted:We wouldn't even be having this discussion of how it's actually okay to underpay for things because "cUsToMeRs PaY fOr VaLuE nOt LaBoUr" if it was an art commission. Well, no, it's different because players aren't commissioning RPGs and getting to negotiate on the value of them. If it's commissioned art, then the artist sets the valuation based on their labor. If paying that amount isn't worth it in value to the commissioner, they don't continue with the commission. There's meant to be an intersection. Finding that intersection is supposed to be one of the key methods by which capitalism avoids communism's problems with wasted, misdirected production. On the other hand, if you spend months painting a picture and then expect to sell it, nobody has to buy that picture and pay you your living expenses for those months. If I was considering paying someone to write me an RPG, I'd expect them to want a fair price for their time writing. But if that was too high based on the value I expected for it - and that includes all the factors personal to me such as the chance of it being played - I wouldn't take the deal.
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Mar 6, 2019 19:42
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RPGs are toys for children, except children have fun with toys.
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Mar 6, 2019 19:50
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If they get like $10,000,000, it's not like all that money goes directly to the actors, right? Like, making a TV show has a lot of costs and so the actors are going to keep a small fraction, which they will then have to split multiple ways. Like, they will be getting decent money, but it's not going to be a ridiculous amount for actors in a TV show.
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Mar 6, 2019 20:08
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When income exceeds costs, the remainder is called "profit." It is up to the profit-owner to decide how to spend it. If they decide to give a bonus to their employees, that's cool and good. If the employees negotiate a higher wage based on their value, that's also cool and good. Unless the actors' contracts include points. Which they might. Or might not. But absent any other information, one should assume that the content producer will possibly adjust the budget based on the windfall, and otherwise will keep the remainder.
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Mar 6, 2019 20:12
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Leperflesh posted:When income exceeds costs, the remainder is called "profit." It is up to the profit-owner to decide how to spend it. If they decide to give a bonus to their employees, that's cool and good. If the employees negotiate a higher wage based on their value, that's also cool and good. Isn't the profit owner the actors here?
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Mar 6, 2019 20:16
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I dunno. A multimillion dollar kickstarter should be run and managed via some form of corporation, sensibly, but I do not actually know whether they've done that, or who owns the content. If the actors do, that's cool, but they must have (I really hope they have) a formal, contractual agreement in place as to their individual shares in the company. But if that is the case, then their profits are probably being earned not as wages paid for acting, but as the return on their investment/share in the company.
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Mar 6, 2019 20:23
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I can't check it right now, but as I recall the KS had a breakdown of funds allocation and there wasn't an "actor salary" category called out separately. Just the amount going to production, which I assume would include some measure of that, though I don't know how much. They did reference shooting for a minimum quality animation level of about $30K/minute in terms of budget, because they didn't want it to look like that lovely dragonlance cartoon or whatnot.
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Mar 6, 2019 20:27
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hyphz posted:If it's commissioned art, then the artist sets the valuation based on their labor. If paying that amount isn't worth it in value to the commissioner, they don't continue with the commission. There's meant to be an intersection. Finding that intersection is supposed to be one of the key methods by which capitalism avoids communism's problems with wasted, misdirected production. lol its working out real well so far
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Mar 6, 2019 20:43
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Serf posted:lol its working out real well so far Capitalism is so good at allocating resources that we have ten times as many empty houses as homeless people in the USA alone!
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Mar 6, 2019 20:45
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Joe Slowboat posted:Capitalism is so good at allocating resources that we have ten times as many empty houses as homeless people in the USA alone! hell, if you need an elfgaming example look at the d20 glut. my lgs still has shelves of stuff from when i was in middle school that won't sell
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Mar 6, 2019 20:52
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Serf posted:hell, if you need an elfgaming example look at the d20 glut. my lgs still has shelves of stuff from when i was in middle school that won't sell That’s the result of the publishers overestimating value. But this was a Kickstarter, so that issue isn’t so relevant.
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Mar 6, 2019 21:04
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hyphz posted:That’s the result of the publishers overestimating value. But this was a Kickstarter, so that issue isn’t so relevant. ks is sort of an odd duck in that you're basically putting your money down in hopes that the thing in question gets made. some creators are more consistent than others, or at least more popular but that's beside the point. just had to blow up your "wasted, misdirected production" canard there
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Mar 6, 2019 21:18
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Serf posted:ks is sort of an odd duck in that you're basically putting your money down in hopes that the thing in question gets made. some creators are more consistent than others, or at least more popular Well I more went that it goes straight to the customer. Instead of having a publisher who has to guess the value of a work, and can get it wrong.
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Mar 6, 2019 21:28
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hyphz posted:Well I more went that it goes straight to the customer. Instead of having a publisher who has to guess the value of a work, and can get it wrong. yes, the traditional production model has flaws too. they're a product of the same economic system after all
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Mar 6, 2019 21:30
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Jimbozig posted:If they get like $10,000,000, it's not like all that money goes directly to the actors, right? Like, making a TV show has a lot of costs and so the actors are going to keep a small fraction, which they will then have to split multiple ways. Like, they will be getting decent money, but it's not going to be a ridiculous amount for actors in a TV show. There's the actors, but I think the bulk of that money will go towards animation, if it even covers that cost without additional investment. I think animation is pretty expensive? I don't work in that industry, so idk.
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Mar 6, 2019 21:31
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Animation is enormously expensive even for the cheap stuff. Also craft is art and art is craft, pay your skilled tradespeople or get hanged by the neck until dead. These two statements may be related!
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Mar 6, 2019 21:51
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Jimbozig posted:Isn't the profit owner the actors here? 99% chance it's Geek and Sundry.
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Mar 6, 2019 23:13
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I thought Critical Role had pretty much split off from them. They have their own twitch/youtube channels, and Marisha is creative director or something for CR. When the new youtube channel started it sounded very much like they had their own studio, etc., and weren't as dependent on geek & sundry. I think the whole thing is Matt Mercer's IP (other than the D&D and PF stuff)
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Mar 6, 2019 23:20
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They have their own channel but the show itself is on G&S still, isn't it? I also had the impression that Marisha was high up IN G&S, but that might have been me misunderstanding.
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Mar 6, 2019 23:30
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thespaceinvader posted:They have their own channel but the show itself is on G&S still, isn't it? Yeah they still broadcast on G&S and have their videos up on project alpha (which I think is a G&S/Nerdist platform). You could be right, though.
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Mar 6, 2019 23:32
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For what it's worth, the two most recent episodes are not on the Geek and Sundry YouTube channel. They're only on the Critical Role channel
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Mar 6, 2019 23:34
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King of Solomon posted:For what it's worth, the two most recent episodes are not on the Geek and Sundry YouTube channel. They're only on the Critical Role channel That I had not noticed, because I usually get them through youtube recs rather than subscriptions because both channels shove a lot of gumf I don't care about into my subscriptions.
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Mar 6, 2019 23:38
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thespaceinvader posted:That I had not noticed, because I usually get them through youtube recs rather than subscriptions because both channels shove a lot of gumf I don't care about into my subscriptions. It explains why I haven't seen the new episodes show up. I only followed the show through the G&S playlist.
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Mar 6, 2019 23:41
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The argument I’m going to make isn’t going to be a popular one, but I’m going to make it anyway. The consumers of media are often trash, consuming trash media because it is easy and comforting and makes them feel justified in their life choices. I’m not saying that no consumers seek out challenging media, but that most do not. In the tabletop world, action adventure games like D&D and its ilk are the trash media, they don’t challenge the unconscious biases of its largely cishet, white male audience, but in fact reinforces them in a way that provides addicting dopamine boosts. It’s not until we, as designers and artists, begin to train consumers that more challenging media is not only better for one’s ethical development, but it also leads to long term fulfillment that the art world can stop being reliant on rich, elitist patrons, which the tabletop industry doesn’t even have. And like, there are definitely pushing the boundaries, but I know I don’t have the skills to convey to a group of D&D diehards that they should play my sad single player RPG about death and moving on. But that doesn’t mean that it’s not a conversation that shouldn’t be going on. Unfortunately, those will the skills to mediate that gap often do so purely to get people to buy their elfgame adjacent tabletop games and not to encourage them to go on deeper avenues of personal discovery. This isn’t even going into how the D&D brand has tainted the public consciousness of the media to a degree that I haven’t seen since hentai OVAs determined the public consciousness around anime. This keeps potentially interested outside observers feel skipping D&D and going right to the more engaging, artistic stuff, which means that those that do enter the community almost always do so through action adventure games first, which in turn makes them reluctant to explore less charter waters, especially if their table is also reluctant to do so. And furthermore, I move that Capitalism must be destroyed.
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Mar 7, 2019 00:26
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thespaceinvader posted:They have their own channel but the show itself is on G&S still, isn't it? I believe she was G&S's Creative Director, but when CR got its own studio (a few months before they officially split off from them), she resigned to be CR's.
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Mar 7, 2019 00:46
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Meinberg posted:And furthermore, I move that Capitalism must be destroyed. I mean obviously. Lemme go buy more plastic spaceships first tho
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Mar 7, 2019 00:49
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Finster Dexter posted:There's the actors, but I think the bulk of that money will go towards animation, if it even covers that cost without additional investment. I think animation is pretty expensive? I don't work in that industry, so idk. Like they said somewhere, it cost about a million bucks an episode for Last Airbender.
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Mar 7, 2019 02:20
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This is a useful word, thank you
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Mar 7, 2019 02:36
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CR is independent now, and they stream and upload through their own channels. Geek and Sundry does broadcast their stream as well, for now, and it seems to be an amicable split.
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Mar 7, 2019 02:46
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Meinberg posted:The argument I’m going to make isn’t going to be a popular one, but I’m going to make it anyway. The consumers of media are often trash, consuming trash media because it is easy and comforting and makes them feel justified in their life choices. I’m not saying that no consumers seek out challenging media, but that most do not. I sort of get what you're saying here, but I think you're being a bit tail wagging the dog on this. If you're making a game about death and dying as a solo experience, yeah it's not going to ever be popular. You're already go away from the default game style (several players, zero to one GM) and the subject matter is one that people aren't going to want to interact with on a common basis. As much as you're bashing it here, escapism is important, especially in the current hellworld. I know my media consumption has been much more chipper since the populist revolt in '16, to the point where I can't watch something along the lines of Threads or Handmaid's Tale at the moment. Hope is something I have to kind of cling to, because without it there's not much keeping the gun out of my mouth. Complaining that people who like the popular stuff are dopamine "addicts" (a misuse of the term if there ever was one) is never going to work in getting people to like your game and buy it. Elfgame adjacent stuff can also be plenty good at bringing a decent message out. As much as Star Trek is pop sci-fi stuff, it specifically pushed representation to point where MLK famously called and convinced Nichelle Nichols to stick with it because of the good it was doing for the African American community. Opera and Shakespeare plays were also specifically the low art of their day, or at least played partially to it for appeal. You can put serious messages into low art to get your point across, instead of saying that producers of a product are the ones that get to dictate what the audience enjoys.
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Mar 7, 2019 03:02
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'Trash media' and 'challenging media' is always just 'media for poor people' and 'media for rich people'.
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Mar 7, 2019 03:45
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Ghost Leviathan posted:'Trash media' and 'challenging media' is always just 'media for poor people' and 'media for rich people'. That's a bold statement to make when comparing a piece of media that costs a hundred dollars to purchase vs. one that can be gotten for free. rkajdi posted:I sort of get what you're saying here, but I think you're being a bit tail wagging the dog on this. If you're making a game about death and dying as a solo experience, yeah it's not going to ever be popular. You're already go away from the default game style (several players, zero to one GM) and the subject matter is one that people aren't going to want to interact with on a common basis. As much as you're bashing it here, escapism is important, especially in the current hellworld. I know my media consumption has been much more chipper since the populist revolt in '16, to the point where I can't watch something along the lines of Threads or Handmaid's Tale at the moment. Hope is something I have to kind of cling to, because without it there's not much keeping the gun out of my mouth. Complaining that people who like the popular stuff are dopamine "addicts" (a misuse of the term if there ever was one) is never going to work in getting people to like your game and buy it. I will admit that I may have gotten a touch hyperbolic in my post. It is just very frustrating when works that try to push the medium forward, the ones that try to experiment and figure new things out, only get respect when they're made by someone who has been working in the industry for decades, and even then folks will come along and make piss poor renditions of it, claim it was their original idea, and make boat loads of cash. Edit: Like, okay, the poetry world isn't exactly setting anyone on fire, but I'd wager that a lot of talented authors do read a fair amount of poetry to gain insights into figurative language, to gain permissions on how to mess with words on the page, and to explore the potential of literature as a concept, and that some of those authors are working in more pop culture fields. Poets still don't make any money off of their poetry, though, except in the rarest occasions, but for poets, there are arts grants and fellowships and academic work available to help support artists while they're making their art in a way that is connected to their art. Tabletop RPGs don't have that though, in part because of the general impression around games but also because Dungeons and Dragons has dominated the subject around the medium that it's hard to discuss more artistic works with those outside of the community. Meinberg fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 03:57
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So I saw Monte Cook's put the pdfs for Invisible Sun (That ridiculous Kickstarter boondoggle with the plastic hand) up for sale on Drivethru...for $99.00. One of its listed selling points as "A new way to play RPGs": quote:Conventional RPG game play, with everyone gathering for a few hours every week or two, is what makes RPGs a great experience. It’s also one of the greatest obstacles to a successful campaign, for our modern life rarely makes it convenient. Conventional play is the centerpiece of Invisible Sun, but the game also accommodates the realities of our lifestyles, rewards engagement with the game away from the table, and is deliberately made for differing player styles. This sounds exactly like all that poo poo he "invented" for Numenera and the Cypher system that had already been done and done better by other games. To anyone who has actually played this thing: Is there any actual substance to it? Or is it more of Monte Cook being miles up his own butt?
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Mar 7, 2019 04:04
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KingKalamari posted:So I saw Monte Cook's put the pdfs for Invisible Sun (That ridiculous Kickstarter boondoggle with the plastic hand) up for sale on Drivethru...for $99.00. It's Cypher System with a less exciting version of Torg's drama cards and the setting is interesting but also fill of incredibly fiddly details that are incredibly dull and prose that tends towards the poor.
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Mar 7, 2019 04:07
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Meinberg posted:It is just very frustrating when works that try to push the medium forward, the ones that try to experiment and figure new things out, only get respect when they're made by someone who has been working in the industry for decades I mean, yeah, if somebody is trying to do something radical and different in a medium, they really should have proven that they are adepts of that medium and legitimately understand it. This goes for every discipline, artistic or otherwise. It’s the difference between new physics and the unhinged dudes that are always nagging math, physics, and philosophy departments about their “breakthroughs” Achmed Jones fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 04:07
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KingKalamari posted:This sounds exactly like all that poo poo he "invented" for Numenera and the Cypher system that had already been done and done better by other games. To anyone who has actually played this thing: Is there any actual substance to it? Or is it more of Monte Cook being miles up his own butt?   The fractal wrongness here is a bit to unpack.
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Mar 7, 2019 04:19
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NGDBSS posted:It is very much him with his head up his own butt. Wapole Languray posted the relevant page on one of the Discords, even, so have a gander. Yeah basically this is the reason I hate the idea of Monte Cook charging so drat much for this stuff. The dude doesn't have a goddamn original thought in his head and his mechanics are garbage but he's got an insane cult of personality that'll get people defending a garbage file being sold for $99 like it's a benefit for the hobby. edit: Also Numenara is just a straight up ripoff of 70s fiction like Darwinism fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 04:54
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"Players can (gasp) talk to each other (wow) outside of the game (Amazing) and this is the best thing ever. We should definitely thank Monte Cook for this. Long may his d20 roll."
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Mar 7, 2019 05:00
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Meinberg posted:That's a bold statement to make when comparing a piece of media that costs a hundred dollars to purchase vs. one that can be gotten for free. It's not even about the money, plenty of trash media is designed to extract as much of that as possible from the audience, it's about the class signifiers. Not to mention media made by minorities is usually immediately lumped into 'trash' with a few, extremely condescending exceptions for when something happens to appeal to wealthy white people and thus gets to be elevated and awarded, then quickly forgotten. Besides, 'challenging' sounds like the opposite of 'accessible', and isn't the point here that we desperately need more accessible options for people to get into the medium without seeing it entirely through a single system's lens? If you want to educate the benighted savages, you're not going to do that through trying to hijack their entertainment, we've all seen how badly that goes over. At best, you're re-inventing the PSAs at the end of GI Joe. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Mar 7, 2019 |
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Mar 7, 2019 05:00
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