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Taear posted:The game is a hash of stuff like that though, tonnes of bits that just aren't quite planned properly. True to life.
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Mar 8, 2019 13:39
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Playing Eleanor is great! Being stuck next to Dido who I can't flip their cities is a drag!
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Mar 8, 2019 15:24
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Im reading the civ 6 meta, i dont understand, why are industrial zones considered bad when production is king?
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Mar 8, 2019 16:02
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I guess the gears in gears out rate is bad? It's probably that it's the district you want the least of. A city with a ton of mines getting lots out of it and using the factory to help other cities are cool. But the nature of the one factory bonus per city makes having more zones worse.
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Mar 8, 2019 16:07
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Not Al-Qaeda posted:Im reading the civ 6 meta, i dont understand, why are industrial zones considered bad when production is king? You're investing production to get production, and the rate of return is very long. Personally I build them spread out so I have the minimum possible for factory coverage, but I know even that probably isn't worth it in the long run. It may eventually pay off, but the problem is that due to the nature of Civ there are tons of things you can invest in that give a bigger, faster return, like units to take cities.
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Mar 8, 2019 16:34
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Were industrial zones better in vanilla or anything? I remember people saying production was king and that the most important zones were industrial but maybe that's not true What do you guys think ARE the most important zones? I tend to only build like one encampment or two on most games, usually try to build a harbor/commercial and a campus, basically never build holy sites, and only occasionally build theatre squares if I'm doing culture victory although I'm coming around to the idea that culture is basically just as or more important than science since you get most of its benefits immediately.
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Mar 8, 2019 16:39
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Not Al-Qaeda posted:Im reading the civ 6 meta, i dont understand, why are industrial zones considered bad when production is king? Not easy to get high adjacency unless you're Germany.
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Mar 8, 2019 16:40
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Stefan Prodan posted:Were industrial zones better in vanilla or anything? I remember people saying production was king and that the most important zones were industrial but maybe that's not true Science/culture then harbor/commercial and honorable mention for holy. And Government plaza is incredibly important.
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Mar 8, 2019 16:41
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Stefan Prodan posted:Were industrial zones better in vanilla or anything? I remember people saying production was king and that the most important zones were industrial but maybe that's not true In launch vanilla, before the first patch, cities would get the effect of all industrial zones within 6 tiles. So they were awesome for 3 months.
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Mar 8, 2019 16:41
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Germany's Hanzas are still worth. But I mean, if that's the standard needed....
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Mar 8, 2019 17:02
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Magil Zeal posted:You're investing production to get production, and the rate of return is very long. Personally I build them spread out so I have the minimum possible for factory coverage, but I know even that probably isn't worth it in the long run. It seems exacerbated by the fact that industrial zones get introduced pretty late compared to other districts so you get less benefit in the long-run as well as scaling costs. And later on if you get a golden age you can take the dedication that gives production from campus adjacency.
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Mar 8, 2019 17:03
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Gobblecoque posted:It seems exacerbated by the fact that industrial zones get introduced pretty late compared to other districts so you get less benefit in the long-run as well as scaling costs. And later on if you get a golden age you can take the dedication that gives production from campus adjacency. The late introduction is definitely a problem as well; Civ VI follows a pretty strict progression system where all buildings at a given point in the tech/civic tree cost the same in terms of cogs, so the Industrial Zone being introduced late means the Workshop has a higher base cost than other first-tier buildings, and the Workshop is pretty bad. But you have to build it to get to the Factory and Power Plant.
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Mar 8, 2019 17:17
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So do yall not bother with industrial zones in most of your cities? Here i thought I was doing the standard thing by building one absolutely everywhere.
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Mar 8, 2019 17:34
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Eschatos posted:So do yall not bother with industrial zones in most of your cities? Here i thought I was doing the standard thing by building one absolutely everywhere. Unless you're Germany, no. You can invest the hammers in almost anything else and it'll give a better return.
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Mar 8, 2019 17:40
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Personally I tend to try and plan ahead and just build a few, usually in my highest production cities anyway. Try and get Ruhr Valley out of one, and try to hit as many cities as possible with the factory and power plant bonuses. I’ll also build some in cities with super low production, but usually I’ll try to just buy the zone through Reyna for these. A passing thought, I think a cool Great Engineer would be one that would allow the 4th ring of tiles around a city to be buildable and workable.
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Mar 8, 2019 17:41
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I usually end up having an IZ in 1 out of 3-4 cities. I intentionally scout a place that is going to have at least a +4 adjacency yield from the beginning of the game, and that's where the first one goes. After that, I tend to only place them if I incidentally come across a good yield tile. The workshop is just too worthless and too expensive to build to get an IZ up and running. An IZ without a good adjacency yield won't produce an acceptable amount of hammers until you build both the workshop and a factory. If I don't get a good adjacency bonus, then it will take too long to recoup the hammer cost. The Human Crouton fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Mar 8, 2019 |
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Mar 8, 2019 17:45
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Not Al-Qaeda posted:Im reading the civ 6 meta, i dont understand, why are industrial zones considered bad when production is king? Borsche69 posted:Here's a good thread on Civ6 balance, and hypothetical balance changes if anyone has the time: https://www.realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?tid=9284
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Mar 8, 2019 18:00
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Plus its really easy to make production out of thin air with the correct government cards, chops, trade routes, city states, upgrading cheap early units into expensive late game units with gold, etc.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:01
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Factories also need to be powered now. Though if you have a good adjacency bonus you can double it with a coal plant Seems like faith. Very powerful when the stars align.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:05
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I feel like they greatly over estimated how useful coal/oil/nuke plants are. Everyone hates the maintenance project. I'd never use oil on a building. That poo poo is too rare and I need it for my units. Why the hell is oil so rare
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Mar 8, 2019 18:09
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:Factories also need to be powered now. If I was to buff them I would definitely start with the workshop, at least. It's +2 hammers/turn for a nearly 200 hammer investment. It takes 100 turns to pay that off!
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Mar 8, 2019 18:09
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Yeah. Maybe like a 15% bonus to wonder and building construction? To solidify the focus on infrastructure and distinguish it from the encampment in what it is meant to help.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:15
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Borsche69 posted:If I was to buff them I would definitely start with the workshop, at least. It's +2 hammers/turn for a nearly 200 hammer investment. It takes 100 turns to pay that off! I always build it because hell, nothing else to build. All my cities will have a Campus, an ID and a Commercial district then random other stuff depending on where it is, like a harbour by the sea and etc.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:23
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Industrial Zones pay off in other ways. For starters once you start building neighborhoods and run out of useable tiles you need to get that production from somewhere. But, to me, more importantly, Great Engineers are pretty fantastic for pushing through certain end-game projects like a science victory or rushing a wonder.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:50
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:I feel like they greatly over estimated how useful coal/oil/nuke plants are. Because, as i'm increasingly coming to realize after sinking more and more hours into the game and learning its finer points, is that the game is in fact bad. Bad overly-complicated and poorly communicated mechanics that also happen to be extremely poorly balanced. In classic civ all civs were the same, just slight tweeks to AI personalities. The more the series has decided every country/leader needs a big D&D style list of zany unique abilities and special mechanics the harder and harder its been to balance the game and make sure the core gameplay is good. Instead of tightening up the game and its interface, they just keep tacking more and more goofy new mechanics on. Civ forgot one of its own very true tech quotes, "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." But you can make more money DLC adding unbalanced gimmicky special civ powers and poorly integrated new mechanics, so that's what they do.
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Mar 8, 2019 18:51
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:I feel like they greatly over estimated how useful coal/oil/nuke plants are. To force you to go war to get more of it
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Mar 8, 2019 18:57
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Industrial zones are a lot more worth it if you have a few industrial city states in the game. Each city state with 3 envoys adds +2 production to each workshop, dramatically increasing its cost-effectiveness. They also provide great people points which can be really powerful. Since you're competing with the other civs, it's variable just how useful an individual great person point is (if germany's in the game, they'll probably swamp you in terms of GPP) but if you manage to get a few key great people, the benefits are huge. Imagine it helps you snag every great engineer that provides wonder production: you can get a few thousand bonus production towards wonders on top of the production that the IZ buildings provide. Since so much of this depends on city states and other civs, there's a lot of variability in how useful IZs are but it's still worth considering these other benefits. I think it would be nice if they dropped IZs back a bit in the tech tree so that you could feasibly make it your first district. There really needs to be a way to shore up production in some cities. Sometimes you just get screwed by land and have to settle a city with no/few hills - it would be nice to just plop down a IZ early to get it reasonably productive. It might need to have a higher base production bonus for that to be worth it though. Speaking of lovely production, I've wondered for a while what the game impact would be of simply setting city centers to being 2 food 2 production by default. It would slightly improve production woes and prevent plains hills from being literally better than every other tile.
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Mar 8, 2019 19:15
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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pogothemonkey0 posted:Industrial zones are a lot more worth it if you have a few industrial city states in the game. Each city state with 3 envoys adds +2 production to each workshop, dramatically increasing its cost-effectiveness. Industrial city-states only give a bonus to buildings/wonders/districts though, not units, not even civilian units or projects. They're kinda bottom-tier in envoy priority for me, aside from Religious city-states when I'm not going for religion.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:01
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pogothemonkey0 posted:Industrial zones are a lot more worth it if you have a few industrial city states in the game. Each city state with 3 envoys adds +2 production to each workshop, dramatically increasing its cost-effectiveness. Move them to Pottery and call them "Craft Districts". It is quite a long way away really otherwise. Magil Zeal posted:Industrial city-states only give a bonus to buildings/wonders/districts though, not units, not even civilian units or projects. They're kinda bottom-tier in envoy priority for me, aside from Religious city-states when I'm not going for religion. That seems fine? Most of what you build is buildings and wonders, I guess not districts.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:26
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Taear posted:That seems fine? Most of what you build is buildings and wonders, I guess not districts. Personally I build enough builders, settlers, and other units to not really consider a bonus to only buildings/districts/wonders to cover many of my bases. It's not bad per se, but if I had to compare it to gold/culture/research it falls short. Civilization is all about opportunity costs. It's not that the production offered by these things is bad, but there's generally better uses for your investments. If you don't have other city-state options I could see it, but I don't think that's true in general.
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Mar 8, 2019 20:42
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Baronjutter posted:Because, as i'm increasingly coming to realize after sinking more and more hours into the game and learning its finer points, is that the game is in fact bad. Bad overly-complicated and poorly communicated mechanics that also happen to be extremely poorly balanced. Fall From Heaven 2 was the best Civ 4 mod and had drastically different factions. It's not like the Horatio and Unfallen play the same in ES2, why are you complaining about faction differences in Civ now? And aren't you one of the posters that don't like how samey Stellaris races are?
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Mar 8, 2019 20:47
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Making each civ more unique, with unique abbilities and units and stuff, was probably the best innovation civ had in 5, it makes replaying a lot more fun
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Mar 8, 2019 21:16
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Torrannor posted:Fall From Heaven 2 was the best Civ 4 mod and had drastically different factions. It's not like the Horatio and Unfallen play the same in ES2, why are you complaining about faction differences in Civ now? And aren't you one of the posters that don't like how samey Stellaris races are? Asymetrical gameplay is fine and good, but it's hard to do and requires actual talent and effort and vision. ES2 did it well, Fall from Heaven did it well, lots do it well because they care and have talented people involved. Civ doesn't, because they're going fully quantity over quality to pump out DLC. Instead of having maybe 5-6 asymmetrical options that are all finely balanced and interesting and polished and were developed together at the same time around the game's core mechanics, Firaxis just keeps piling poo poo on before they've balanced or polished any of the existing content, let alone the new. It's like they try to obfuscate how bad their mechanics and balance is by making everything pointlessly complicated with terrible player feedback. And that's also my problem with Stellaris races. They manage to be samey and characterless, then just have some mostly unsatisfying gimmicky extra mechanics bolted on that half the time are bugged out or not working in what ever the current version is. They got a real "worst of both worlds" going on on between the anything-goes-gently caress-balance point buy system of something like Moo2 vs the lovingly crafted races of Endless Space 2.
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Mar 8, 2019 21:43
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Baronjutter posted:Asymetrical gameplay is fine and good, but it's hard to do and requires actual talent and effort and vision. ES2 did it well, Fall from Heaven did it well, lots do it well because they care and have talented people involved. Civ doesn't, because they're going fully quantity over quality to pump out DLC. Instead of having maybe 5-6 asymmetrical options that are all finely balanced and interesting and polished and were developed together at the same time around the game's core mechanics, Firaxis just keeps piling poo poo on before they've balanced or polished any of the existing content, let alone the new. It's like they try to obfuscate how bad their mechanics and balance is by making everything pointlessly complicated with terrible player feedback. Its especially blatant when basically all the expansions civs are built around whatever the core gimmick of the expansion is - its like they had to specifically come up with some new gimmicks just to be able to add more civs.
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Mar 8, 2019 22:01
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Borsche69 posted:Its especially blatant when basically all the expansions civs are built around whatever the core gimmick of the expansion is - its like they had to specifically come up with some new gimmicks just to be able to add more civs. Is that even actually the case for Gathering Storm though? There's one Civ that is geared towards earning diplomatic favor (Canada) one Civ that adds new World Congress stuff (Sweden)... and that's pretty much it. I guess if you count England as a "new" Civ because of Eleanor there's also one Civ that interacts with the power system. But the nine new leaders and their Civs by and large don't really focus much on Gathering Storm's gimmicks, and when they do it's only one part of their concept, like say Suleiman's Grand Bazaar giving extra strategic resources. I'd argue that Loyalty pops up more often in Gathering Storm's Civs than any specific Gathering Storm feature/gimmick.
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Mar 8, 2019 22:12
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If civs become homogeneous then I'll check out. They need to make start bias better. And better balance the asymmetrical victory types. Playing to the civs strength is what's fun for me
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Mar 9, 2019 01:46
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There are hundreds of combinations of unique powers that could comprise civs that are not broken. The problem is that the developers have no nuance when creating civs, and the base mechanics are not well fleshed out.
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Mar 9, 2019 01:57
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SHY NUDIST GRRL posted:If civs become homogeneous then I'll check out.  &  There is a mod called better balanced starts, but I'm not sure if it's been updated for GS yet.
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Mar 9, 2019 07:17
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Also FFH2 was fun and I love it but the Civs were completely and utterly unbalanced, on one hand you had Civs that were more like lightly-altered vanilla Civs and others which could pop 48 units out of thin air on a whim
Magil Zeal fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Mar 9, 2019 |
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Mar 9, 2019 07:30
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my problem with civ design that's been getting worse as this game has gotten more content is civ/leader bonuses that are like, half a dozen different small bonuses that are both hard to remember and not particularly interesting to engage with
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Mar 9, 2019 07:38
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