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brian posted:the economic shock therapy that will come with guaido always leads to rampant inequality that leads to popular insurrection that leads to violence from the state, it's not a solution and anyone who pretends it is should be aware that they're a moron or evil or both What economic shock therapy are you talking about?
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Mar 9, 2019 20:37
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Rust Martialis posted:Oh, good, you're back after flouncing off in a decorum huff about "tankie" in 2017. We missed you. lol i love that in your head this is a dunk, remembering the time 2 years ago I apparently said something you disagreed with, even though presumably it was about you using tankie to refer to people who didn't deserve the term just like you consistently mark anyone against a US coup as a stalinist in this thread, i love that you think you're convincing people with this shtick instead of pushing people away, like people see it and go "yeah that guy who never validates anything he says and instead immediately jumps on bizarre factoid X to insinuate the person's opinion can't be trusted, he's really got the right idea about this stuff". Grow up and gain some empathy so you stop supporting literal murder please and to fishmech I don't know if you're playing coy or genuinely asking but look at literally every other american coup in a resource rich nation and the policies that those governments have enacted, Chile is the chief example of full on chicago school poo poo but it's all just lesser levels of extremely unregulated capitalism in the other ones (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 9, 2019 20:55
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what if we support non-bullshit elections do I have to be shot a thousand times or would a hundred be fine
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Mar 9, 2019 20:59
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brian posted:you consistently mark anyone against a US coup as a stalinist in this thread We are all Stalinists now.
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Mar 9, 2019 21:10
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you can support non-bullshit elections or you can support guaido/abrams or you can support maduro, neither of the latter two will bring the former
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Mar 9, 2019 21:10
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brian posted:you can support non-bullshit elections or you can support guaido/abrams or you can support maduro, neither of the latter two will bring the former The last "non-bullshit elections" put Guaido in the current position of interim President as head of the NA. The "bullshit elections" since have been organized by Maduro.
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Mar 9, 2019 21:18
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brian posted:you can support non-bullshit elections or you can support guaido/abrams or you can support maduro, neither of the latter two will bring the former Guaido was elected in 2015. He represents a (previous) stronghold of Maduro/Chavez support. He was then elected head of the National Assembly a few months ago, replacing Omar Barboza. As such, Guaido is now the interim President per the Venezuelan Constitution. Which part of that democratic process is the bullshit part, in your educated opinion?
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Mar 9, 2019 21:20
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brian posted:you can support non-bullshit elections or you can support guaido/abrams or you can support maduro, neither of the latter two will bring the former we have a fundamental difference of opinion on Guaido and the Formerly MUD then, although I have some sympathy for the argument that democracy on Venezuela is dead for the foreseeable future regardless of what the players involved tell themselves (might have been Maine Paineframe who more eloquently pitched that one?)
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Mar 9, 2019 21:21
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Private Witt posted:Guaido was elected in 2015. He represents a (previous) stronghold of Maduro/Chavez support. I think it's less how he got here and more that his current most powerful ally spends his every waking hour undermining democracy, which would be a wee bit challenging if he wants to restore democracy after giving Maduro the boot.
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Mar 9, 2019 21:23
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brian posted:the economic shock therapy that will come with guaido It currently impossible to get shocked under Maduro's regime, but check back tomorrow
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Mar 9, 2019 21:23
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ah yes, the great validity decider has made his decision, i forgot that happened understand that literally nothing you can say can validate supporting an open coup and on that note i've said my bit so i'm out have fun dealing with your own moral bankruptcy guaidonauts (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 9, 2019 21:25
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Darth Walrus posted:I think it's less how he got here and more that his current most powerful ally spends his every waking hour undermining democracy, which would be a wee bit challenging if he wants to restore democracy after giving Maduro the boot. yeah the odds of a good outcome get lower the more reliant he is on the US and relatedly the more time passes I'm curious what Leopoldo Lopez thinks of all this, too bad he's under house arrest for undermining the bolivarian revolution Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Mar 9, 2019 |
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Mar 9, 2019 21:26
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fishmech posted:What economic shock therapy are you talking about? The economic shock therapy that Chile underwent in the late 1970s after socialism ruined its economy. Chile is now the wealthiest and most democratic country on the continent.
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Mar 9, 2019 21:29
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DoctorStrangelove posted:The economic shock therapy that Chile underwent in the late 1970s after socialism ruined its economy. Chile is now the wealthiest and most democratic country on the continent. 
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Mar 9, 2019 21:30
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brian posted:understand that literally nothing you can say can validate supporting an open coup You heard it here first folks, the 20 June 1944 plotters were categorically wrong to oppose Hitler, according to Brian. Luckily for Venezuela, Guaido is already de jure President under the constitution. quote:on that note i've said my bit so i'm out So... see you sometime around Christmas 2020. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Mar 9, 2019 |
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Mar 9, 2019 21:33
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brian posted:ah yes, the great validity decider has made his decision, i forgot that happened I mean, that's kind of open-ended, isn't it? Coups of dictators are pretty morally neutral in and of themselves. It just depends what the coupers want to do once they've seized the tyrannical, undemocratic power structure. The sudden deference for oppressive authority from some of the thread lefties is bizarre - remember when someone was going on about how throwing Molotovs at riot police was bad?
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Mar 9, 2019 21:34
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yes clearly i am referring to all coups and not US coups for natural resources that i've referenced in the posts leading up to this this is clearly a good faith interpretation of what I said
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Mar 9, 2019 21:35
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brian posted:yes clearly i am referring to all coups and not US coups for natural resources that i've referenced in the posts leading up to this Aren't you overdue for your announced sesquiannual flounce now? You're the one who can't express yourself with clarity, and this is somehow our fault? Anyone know how the electrical situation is going?
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Mar 9, 2019 21:39
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i genuinely love that you think that you can win an argument online through arbitrary point scoring and it will make up for warmongering and supporting murder, if only you could get the absolutely perfect online own based on the perfect technicality you'll finally be absolved of your sins and become the great hero you were born to be you support murder and I will never not make every argument you try to make about that, because you support murder
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Mar 9, 2019 21:45
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brian posted:you support murder and I will never not make every argument you try to make about that, because you support murder No, if I was supporting murder, looking at deaths caused by violence and starvation, I'd clearly have to be backing Maduro. Also lol at you and murderousness: quote:anyone who defends anything with elliot abrams in it is essentially a worthless piece of poo poo who should be shot a thousand times over You just run along now, friend, back to whatever echo chamber you normally hide in.
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Mar 9, 2019 21:54
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MiddleOne posted:That's not how percentages work... You're confusing relative numbers for nominal. The GDP when Chavez took over in 1998 was roughly 91 billion dollars. When Chavez died in 2013 the economy had grown to an astounding 482,2 billion, mostly off oils increased profitability, population growth and private consumption (financed by redistribution of said oil) which led to predictable results when oil prices fell by more than 60% in less than a year. Non-oil exports didn't dramatically shrink in the period growing up to this, 23% in 1998 is not the same as 23% in 2013. They simply got gradually crowded out by the much more lucrative oil exports leading to a diminished role in the economy. Let's assume we have a perfectly rational government facing an unprecedented boom in revenues and economic activity from oil exports. What is the ideal, perfect way to handle the boom? Assuming it will not last forever and prices will inevitably plunge, what is the optimal strategy for minimizing disruption to the economy? I'm sincerely asking this question btw, the resource curse seems real hard to handle.
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Mar 9, 2019 21:55
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It is not possible in a world where economic power + institutional inertia are a thing. loving Norway of all countries got over reliant on the oil sector and when it tanked in 2014 it vaporised (going off memory here) 40k jobs and put Stavanger on a permanent backburner.
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Mar 9, 2019 21:59
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Decided to learn a bit more about Venezuela and read this thread and I had no idea it was so bad down there under Maduro. Refusing to feed people for years. No wonder everythings gone loving mad. Sorry y’all are going through hell times right now. Im going to try and some money thru the Catholic Church down that way. Ty all for explaining everything so well.
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Mar 9, 2019 22:05
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Private Witt posted:Guaido was elected in 2015. He represents a (previous) stronghold of Maduro/Chavez support. The part where Guaido illegally declared himself president which goes against both the constitution and Supreme Court
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Mar 9, 2019 22:08
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I have a couple of questions just on general conditions in Venezuela: How’s the electric grid down there? Is everyone getting power? How about the water system? I heard medicine is scarce, are there enough doctors? Like, how much of what people need from a government is in place now?
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Mar 9, 2019 22:09
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Rust Martialis posted:No, if I was supporting murder, looking at deaths caused by violence and starvation, I'd clearly have to be backing Maduro. Have you ever once contributed to this thread or is every single one of your 5 pages of posts just "Tankie!!!!  "(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 9, 2019 22:15
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A Typical Goon posted:The part where Guaido illegally declared himself president which goes against both the constitution and Supreme Court Except that the constitutional basis for it is sound, though it requires interpreting Maduro's unconstitutional actions and effective coup following the 2015 national assembly as rendering him unfit and unable to legally hold the presidency. Which I think is a pretty good justification, otherwise it's all there in the consitution really, someone posted a pretty good article about it about a week ago IIRC. And the Venezuelan supreme court has been effectively, and illegally, co-opted by Maduro's regime in the ongoing effort since 2015 to undermine the national assembly.
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Mar 9, 2019 22:16
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Silver Nitrate posted:I have a couple of questions just on general conditions in Venezuela: 1.US BAD electric war 2. US BAD water war 3. US BAD medicine war 4. us bad
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Mar 9, 2019 22:24
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A Typical Goon posted:Have you ever once contributed to this thread or is every single one of your 5 pages of posts just "Tankie!!!! You're the one obsessing about my glorious five pages of posts; go read them and come back and report.
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Mar 9, 2019 22:36
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DoctorStrangelove posted:The economic shock therapy that Chile underwent in the late 1970s after socialism ruined its economy. Chile is now the wealthiest and most democratic country on the continent. Allende was couped in 1973, that's not "late 1970s". And the shock therapy was a failure.
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Mar 9, 2019 23:08
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Arguing with e-maduro supporters is like arguing with flat earthers or chud nazis who deny all evidence with baseless comments and regurgitated telesur articles.
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Mar 9, 2019 23:11
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So with all the foreign fighters in Syria, how many foreign fighters are going down to VZ if there’s a war?
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Mar 9, 2019 23:17
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DoctorStrangelove posted:The economic shock therapy that Chile underwent in the late 1970s after socialism ruined its economy. Chile is now the wealthiest and most democratic country on the continent. Lol... It's been a failure in every country it's been done to
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Mar 9, 2019 23:26
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Chile's relative economy success probably mostly comes down to noone really doing anything really stupid since the late 80s/early 90s IIRC. That and the fact that the country has been very stable as well, and has both an independent and properly functioning judiciary and low corruption which means that it's relatively easy to do business there and therefore also promising to invest in. Pretty decent social and welfare programs (that are not funded by siphoning off all profits from state-owned industries) also don't hurt when it comes to general economic performance I think.
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Mar 9, 2019 23:35
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Well the moneyed classes of those countries profited greatly. Which is what mattered. The fact that the bottom 80% of the country fell back into dirt floors and no electricity doesn't discount the progress made in the country's minuscule middle and upper classes, who are the kind of folk most people are likely to hear from in the media or know in real life. e: ^^Yeah post Pinochet Chile has done well enough, but that one guy is trying to promote the Chile Miracle which was where Chicago school freaks tried to paint the ultra-stratification of Chile under Pinochet as some sort of weird prosperous Golden Age. Zedhe Khoja fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Mar 9, 2019 |
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Mar 9, 2019 23:35
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DoctorStrangelove posted:The economic shock therapy that Chile underwent in the late 1970s after socialism ruined its economy. Chile is now the wealthiest and most democratic country on the continent. A pro-Pinochet take, wow
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Mar 9, 2019 23:36
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Zurakara posted:Well the moneyed classes of those countries profited greatly. Which is what mattered. The fact that the bottom 80% of the country fell back into dirt floors and no electricity doesn't discount the progress made in the country's minuscule middle and upper classes, who are the kind of folk most people are likely to hear from in the media or know in real life. Chile has the lowest poverty rate and the highest GDP per capita in Latin America though. Most of that achieved starting in the late 80s, when poverty still was at around 50%. Zurakara posted:e: ^^Yeah post Pinochet Chile has done well enough, but that one guy is trying to promote the Chile Miracle which was where Chicago school freaks tried to paint the ultra-stratification of Chile under Pinochet as some sort of weird prosperous Golden Age. Yeah. As far as I would guess it seems to me that one of the most significant factors in Chile's success since roughly ~1990 has been its stability as a result of peacefully managing to transition from an authoritarian regime to a democracy with a strong and independent judicial system. There's nothing like stability for promoting growth really and not everyone can be so lucky, though that is not to say that it all comes down to luck, you also have to have people and institutions that work hard to bring this about. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Mar 9, 2019 |
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Mar 9, 2019 23:38
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Silver Nitrate posted:I have a couple of questions just on general conditions in Venezuela: I can speak to this thanks to some posts by Chuck Boone -generally, OP Chuck Boone and other Venegoons have been the best source of info, and this post is a poor recitation of their recent posts. Venezuela's electric grid is mostly dependent on a single dam for power- a recent fire at that dam cut off power to the whole country. The country has backup systems, but those failed to operate. Some cities have regained partial power and lost it again in the following days as power has been restored, then failed again. All of this is caused by, and exacerbated by, a lack of proper infrastructure funding and the brain drain hitting the country over the past ~10 years. edit: Also per the recent posts, the Chavez and Maduro governments will blame basically any negative event on sabotage by the CIA. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Mar 9, 2019 |
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Mar 9, 2019 23:39
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Randarkman posted:Chile has the lowest poverty rate and the highest GDP per capita in Latin America though. Most of that achieved starting in the late 80s, when poverty still was at around 50%. Zurakara posted:e: ^^Yeah post Pinochet Chile has done well enough, but that one guy is trying to promote the Chile Miracle which was where Chicago school freaks tried to paint the ultra-stratification of Chile under Pinochet as some sort of weird prosperous Golden Age. Zedhe Khoja fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Mar 9, 2019 |
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Mar 9, 2019 23:41
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Private Witt posted:Guaido was elected in 2015. He represents a (previous) stronghold of Maduro/Chavez support. does the venezuelan constitution say that the national assembly's interpretations of said constitution override the supreme courts?
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Mar 9, 2019 23:45
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