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Alaois posted:remember Counter X Oh, yeah. Aren't those the books they gave to Warren Ellis?
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Mar 9, 2019 02:59
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Dawgstar posted:Oh, yeah. Aren't those the books they gave to Warren Ellis? they gave Ellis all of the non-mainline X books, but he wouldn't write them himself, he would write the story outlines for them and then other writers would script them. they're uh, not so good
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Mar 9, 2019 03:42
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Dawgstar posted:Pre-Morrison the X-Men/Post-Arbitrary Cut-Off are deeply crappy, just kind of doing whatever. You do get some very pretty Alan Davis-drawn issues, though. Excalibur supremacy. ClanDestine bad, tho.
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Mar 9, 2019 04:30
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Alaois posted:they gave Ellis all of the non-mainline X books, but he wouldn't write them himself, he would write the story outlines for them and then other writers would script them. One of those had early Brian Wood stuff. I've never been a fan, even before the Tess Fowler thing, so I have no problem believing that.
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Mar 9, 2019 15:48
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Dawgstar posted:One of those had early Brian Wood stuff. I've never been a fan, even before the Tess Fowler thing, so I have no problem believing that. Like I get not having any great affection for superheroes, but he was doing stuff on the level of "So I was watching the old Superman movie and the reporter lady... what's her name again? It's like two of the same initials, Kathy Klein? Lana Lane? Whatever, the Margot Kidder character, what can I say, I'm not a Superman guy!" or "I like your work on this Fantastic Four cover, especially the rock monster and the... Invisible Lady? Anyway I don't give a poo poo about your pervert suit babydick comics and I don't even know why they're called the Fantastic Four but cool cover, Stuart."
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Mar 9, 2019 15:59
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Edge & Christian posted:That whole initiative was like the Warren Ellis Forum Talent Search Pilot Project, the fact that Wood participated was extra funny because he was so performatively "I don't read superhero comics, I don't even own a TV" on the forums/in interviews. It's easy to imagine there was a strong 'more cape ignorance than thou' culture on Ellis' forums, especially trying to get Warren-sempai to notice you, but that seems like next-level pretentiousness.
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Mar 9, 2019 17:12
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a conversation about Mr. X in the comicsgate thread reminded me and made me very thankful that nobody has made a pet character out of Tseng, a villain from Counter X-Force. He was the fuckin diiiiiiiiiiirt woooooooooorst.
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Mar 9, 2019 22:24
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Dawgstar posted:It's easy to imagine there was a strong 'more cape ignorance than thou' culture on Ellis' forums, especially trying to get Warren-sempai to notice you, but that seems like next-level pretentiousness.
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Mar 10, 2019 08:38
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Are there any examples of heroic characters permanently turning villainous? Going in the opposite direction there's too many examples to count, but I can't think of a single example of a good guy permanently going bad, or even for an extended amount of time (say, 10 years). Closest I can think of is Jason Todd, and I haven't been following DC stuff for a while but I think he's more of an antihero these days.
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Mar 10, 2019 13:03
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Hal Jordan's villain turn was at the time supposed to be a permanent heel turn.
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Mar 10, 2019 13:07
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Captain America. No, the other one, Commie Smasher.
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Mar 10, 2019 13:20
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Superboy Prime?
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Mar 10, 2019 14:04
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Superboy Prime? That's probably the best example.
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Mar 10, 2019 14:06
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Ultimate universe Reed Richards
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Mar 10, 2019 15:21
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Rochallor posted:Are there any examples of heroic characters permanently turning villainous? Going in the opposite direction there's too many examples to count, but I can't think of a single example of a good guy permanently going bad, or even for an extended amount of time (say, 10 years). Closest I can think of is Jason Todd, and I haven't been following DC stuff for a while but I think he's more of an antihero these days. Maxwell Lord and The Chief.
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Mar 10, 2019 16:15
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Good pulls, those. On a similar note to Maxwell Lord, there's Cameron Hodge, who turned out to be a villain pretty quickly but I'm pretty sure wasn't created to be.
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Mar 10, 2019 23:20
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Rochallor posted:Are there any examples of heroic characters permanently turning villainous? Going in the opposite direction there's too many examples to count, but I can't think of a single example of a good guy permanently going bad, or even for an extended amount of time (say, 10 years). Closest I can think of is Jason Todd, and I haven't been following DC stuff for a while but I think he's more of an antihero these days. Erik O'Grady if you really smudge the margins of "heroic."
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Mar 10, 2019 23:24
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Madelyn Pryor never really "came back" from being the Goblin Queen, did she?
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Mar 10, 2019 23:33
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Rhyno posted:Hal Jordan's villain turn was at the time supposed to be a permanent heel turn. It should've been.
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Mar 10, 2019 23:39
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Alaois posted:Madelyn Pryor never really "came back" from being the Goblin Queen, did she? I don't think so, she showed up as the Goblin Queen in either All New X-Men or X-Men Blue (one of the ones about the time displaced O5).
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Mar 10, 2019 23:40
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Rochallor posted:Are there any examples of heroic characters permanently turning villainous? Going in the opposite direction there's too many examples to count, but I can't think of a single example of a good guy permanently going bad, or even for an extended amount of time (say, 10 years). Closest I can think of is Jason Todd, and I haven't been following DC stuff for a while but I think he's more of an antihero these days. Phil Urich, the former heroic Green Goblin.
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Mar 10, 2019 23:41
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Gavok posted:Phil Urich, the former heroic Green Goblin. Why the hell was that ever a thing? You might also count Ned Leeds, he wasn't particularly heroic, but at least some of the people writing him didn't intend for him to be Hobgoblin.
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Mar 10, 2019 23:44
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Skwirl posted:Why the hell was that ever a thing? It was a few years after Harry died and maybe a year before Norman was brought back. Nobody cared about the other Green Goblin, so it probably seemed like a decent idea to introduce a new one and try and figure out a new twist. The fact that he had an "Uncle Ben" with Ben Urich didn't hurt.
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Mar 10, 2019 23:52
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Was CoIE the first big DCU reset?
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Mar 10, 2019 23:59
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bessantj posted:Was CoIE the first big DCU reset? Generally yes, but people who want to get really persnickitty about "reset" can find other big continuity change ups. The obvious one being the change from Flash Comics 104 to Showcase 4.
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Mar 11, 2019 00:51
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Skwirl posted:Why the hell was that ever a thing? Hmm Hmm What to call my new hero identity? Hey! Wasn't there a Goblin guy who murdered that police captain's daughter a few years back? Yeahhh...
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Mar 11, 2019 01:09
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Skwirl posted:I don't think so, she showed up as the Goblin Queen in either All New X-Men or X-Men Blue (one of the ones about the time displaced O5). She had a relationship with Nate Grey for a bit in X-Man. I suppose dating the alternate reality child of your source DNA is pretty evil.
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Mar 11, 2019 01:20
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Endless Mike posted:She had a relationship with Nate Grey for a bit in X-Man. I suppose dating the alternate reality child of your source DNA is pretty evil. "Alternate reality child of your source DNA"-cest is the eighth most popular category on pornhub.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:00
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Madelyne's a good example. She spent years being a protagonist and supporting cast member in X-Men comics before her heel turn. She even got healing powers and a codename ("Anodyne") in one of the annuals. I kinda low-key crave a redemption arc for Madelyne Pryor, just because she gets such a monstrously raw deal in the original stories. From Cyclops' abandoned wife to suicidal demon witch clone in sixty seconds, more or less.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:57
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Android Blues posted:Madelyne's a good example. She spent years being a protagonist and supporting cast member in X-Men comics before her heel turn. She even got healing powers and a codename ("Anodyne") in one of the annuals. Inferno is probably in my favorite stories of all time largely because of how it treats Madelyne. The Goblin Queen stuff could have been a barely-concealed middle finger to editorial jerking around with Claremont's creations, but instead it takes that anger and uses it to create an utterly compelling and utterly sympathetic villain. Madelyne has spent her whole life as a pawn in other people's games; can you blame her for wanting to burn the chessboard down? It's like if in Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern reacted to the realization that they're just characters in a play by trying to kill the principal cast of Hamlet. #madelynewasright
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Mar 11, 2019 09:20
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Random Stranger posted:Generally yes, but people who want to get really persnickitty about "reset" can find other big continuity change ups. The obvious one being the change from Flash Comics 104 to Showcase 4. Can I get a brief rundown on what happened there? Those are quite old issues aren't they?
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Mar 11, 2019 21:43
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bessantj posted:Can I get a brief rundown on what happened there? Those are quite old issues aren't they? Showcase 4 was the first appearance of Barry Allen and the accepted start of DC's Silver Age.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:01
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muscles like this! posted:Showcase 4 was the first appearance of Barry Allen and the accepted start of DC's Silver Age. And Flash Comics 104 is the last Jay Garrick story. There's about seven years between them. I'd actually go about a couple years earlier as the silver age line since Superman went full silver age before that and Martian Manhunter debuted before Barry, but Jay to Barry is a hard split that other National comics don't have. Random Stranger fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 22:03
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With Marvel Unlimited, is Spider-Girl and the ancillary MU2 line worth one giant read?
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Mar 12, 2019 05:40
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Not especially. The spin offs are quite bad overall.
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Mar 12, 2019 05:49
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Sinners Sandwich posted:With Marvel Unlimited, is Spider-Girl and the ancillary MU2 line worth one giant read? I tried to just read Spider-Girl a few months ago, but it was written by Tom DeFalco. The rest of the M2 line should only be attempted by masochists.
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Mar 12, 2019 12:35
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The second person narration always felt an odd choice in Spider-Girl.
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Mar 12, 2019 13:08
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Dawgstar posted:The second person narration always felt an odd choice in Spider-Girl. Second person is always odd unless you're playing an RPG and your GM uses it. It's the kind of thing that someone who doesn't think about these things very deeply would go, "Oh, it will make the reader identify with the character more!" without grasping the problem of the disconnect between the reader and action. Way too many Marvel writers in the 70's experimented with second person and it's always annoying when I come across it.
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Mar 12, 2019 13:39
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It was a go-to for about a year with guys like Conway using it in every book. I hate it so much. Conway was a very bad writer in the early 70s who somehow wrote an incredible Spider-Man story. He also used first person in a Werewolf by Night book I read last night. Werewolf by Night is super bad. The only thing that saves it for a few issues is the weird but interesting Tom Sutton art.
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Mar 12, 2019 14:43
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Jordan7hm posted:Werewolf by Night is super bad. The only thing that saves it for a few issues is the weird but interesting Tom Sutton art. Don't forget one of his villains turned to evil because he was pirating music! I was thinking Iron Fist stories with the second person narration, personally, but it's all over the place in 70's Marvel.
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Mar 12, 2019 14:48
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