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This entire conversation is funny compared to the thread title. Misery? That’s storygames.
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Mar 10, 2019 20:29
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| # ? May 26, 2024 01:32 |
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The reason that I brought up Malignant is that it came out shortly after my mother died of cancer, and having this piece of media that was able to speak to the truths and the pains of that experience in a way that was true and relatable held and immense power, even if it’s a game that I would probably have trouble playing. Inauthentic media is far too pervasive, yes, but there are people, genuinely marginalized people, who are interested in exploring their experiences by creating games that discuss the systems of their lives. These authentic expressions have a lot of value, at least in my opinion as a person who is doing that very thing.
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Mar 10, 2019 21:13
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andrew smash posted:So what are the rules that even govern that sort of thing? If you tell the super scary wasteland raiders who come to hassle your fallout universe campfire filking group to gently caress off do they actually grab their rebar clubs and beat you up? The whole thing sounds insane. Yes, they do. It's a boffer style larp, so they proceed to beat your characters up and steal their poo poo. I haven't looked at their rules in a while, since a member of my old gaming group played and tried to talk me into coming out, but post-apocalyptic zombie bullshit is 110% not my scene. It looks like they may have realized (or had something go badly enough to poo poo that they were force to realize) that the slightest bit of concern should be taken, and have added some wording about checking in to make sure the others in the scene are good with what's going on.
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Mar 10, 2019 21:57
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Games shouldn't be used to explore difficult subjects. Art absolutely should be. So this all comes down to two pages ago where people are talking about whether RPGs can be art.
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Mar 10, 2019 23:30
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People have claimed that a game doesnt need players by torturing the works of Caillois, so games can have infinite, unknowable definitions, one of which is probably art
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Mar 10, 2019 23:50
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I think we can agree that stage plays can address difficult subjects well. Going back to the greek tragedy and of course much further. Ostensibly, the audience is there for "entertainment" but I think that's glossing over a hell of a lot. Physically acting out stories is part of our human ritual, undoubtedly prehistoric in origin, and its value goes well beyond mere "enjoyment" as a casual entertainment product. Do you enjoy the ending of Romeo and Juliet? I mean... kinda, the play is brilliantly written, but the protagonists die tragically because their families' feud is impossible for them to overcome. If you remove the play's audience, it can still make sense for a group to get together and perform a play. They become their own audience. The actors are no less worthy an audience than the people in the seats, yes? Perhaps moreso, since they have stepped out of the passive role and into active ones. Participation enhances the experience, potentially. If you remove the playwright's script, but leave the Dramatis Personae, you now have an improv group. They could understand in advance what they're trying to do, and build rules for how to do it, how to keep scenes going and resolve questions of who is in narrative control and what to do about conflicts, etc. Now let the actors create the characters, and you're pretty much in the realm of a LARP - a particular kind of LARP, anyway, albeit probably not the typical one. Have you at some point here crossed a line, from OK or reasonable or respectful, to unreasonable or disrespectful? I think it's fair to say that making a casual game dealing with these subjects is fraught, and potentially hugely disrespectful, and probably inevitably bad. But games don't have to be casual, and calling this sort of interactive live roleplaying I'm describing "a game" is more of a convenient shorthand phrase than a prescriptive one. A funeral is a public scripted production. There are performers who have lines to recite, and depending on the culture you're in, the production can be extremely elaborate, or close and intimate. Emotional catharsis, spiritual invocation, celebration, acknowledgement of loss, sharing of grief. I can imagine an unscripted funeral, with broad guidelines about how things need to go but certain arenas of freedom for those involved to improvise and engage. I would not have called that experience a "game," and there were no fictional characters, of course. But I hope I'm making a reasonable point here. Group semi-improvisational semi-fictional interactive roleplay has the potential to be valuable and worthwhile even or especially when it deals with extremely emotionally difficult subjects. Provided everyone is fully understanding of what's being done and why, and where the boundaries are, and is highly respectful of them and one another.
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Mar 11, 2019 00:18
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Hey, I'm pleasantly surprised that Dysopia Rising is being noticed for being comicly poo poo. Yes, they are a cult, in that they are a venal and craven for-profit scam wrapped up in LARP tropes 'inherited' from Fallout and White Wolf games and zombieworld Libertarians. They had to pull back on demands of their staff because, well, labor laws. They don't run out of America because that would threaten their Very Very Critical control over IP (Fallout). They've had to start removing Slavery as an option because their players realized that slavery was objectively mechanically profitable. They explicitly push the XP for money sceme to a degree that lootboxes look more humane. The 'night attacks' elements is surface-level about being loving Intense and de facto about encouraging loving In Tents. Both rape and really skeevy sex-work adjacent scenarios are features, not bugs. "Franchises" are only barely regulated and not at all secured, but getting a clearance to not have to sleep with one eye open for medical reasons is a Top Approval procedure. Its a loving boffer larp with zombie rules and resurrection based on what racist stereotype you choose. Japanese Seppuku to prevent evil ghosts included.
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Mar 11, 2019 06:17
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Here's an entry for "games as art and/or educational tools". https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/unrulydesigns/rosenstrasse quote:As the Nazi party rises to power, lines are drawn in the sand to separate who is German and who is not. This line runs straight through marriages between Jewish and “Aryan” Germans. Over an in-game decade, players explore how the Reich’s racial policies, restrictions, and violence strip away liberty, security, and dignity for these families. They don't have the rules out, but the sample characters and scenes show real promise. The real life Rosenstrasse protest saved lives, the game is trying to save minds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenstrasse_protest
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Mar 11, 2019 06:52
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mllaneza posted:Here's an entry for "games as art and/or educational tools". I know some people who have playtested it and, while it is a very intense experience, it has also been a powerful, moving, and enlightening one.
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Mar 11, 2019 06:59
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I mean I can see the value of a kind of real world moral dilemma simulator like Papers, Please but the incredible pitfalls possible seem like a big problem. Some elements of this game feel like... do I even want to fuckin' own 'Star Tokens'? No. No, I do not.
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Mar 11, 2019 07:56
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Yeah, this kind of thing sounds like it might be really cool as a private experience, but in a group environment? Dear god no, and I'm pretty sure you're already self-selecting for social anxiety.
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Mar 11, 2019 11:31
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I think the issue a lot of people have with this sort of area is as follows: 1) Any particular creative product depicting a miserable/enraging/controversial/triggering/whatever subject has the potential to give that subject a respectful and insightful treatment. 2) Any particular creative product depicting a miserable/enraging/controversial/triggering/whatever subject has the potential to completely trivialise that subject for the sake of funsies. 3) Any particular creative product depicting a miserable/enraging/controversial/triggering/whatever subject has the potential to land in between the two extremes of 1) and 2). 4) If you have a single major creative mind behind a product - the author of a novel or poem, the composer of a piece of music, the auteur director of a movie or film - then it's going to hit one point in between 1) and 2) and largely not stray far from there. If it's closer to 2) then the piece is going to be lovely and not worth your time and you can dispose if it happily. If it's closer to 1), it's more defensible. 5) The more creative voices you add, the more potential variance in the position of the product you get. 6) RPGs are inherently about giving every participant a creative voice. 7) As the number of participants in a game increases, the odds of someone dragging the tone of the game over towards 2) approaches unity. 8) Your take on whether it's acceptable for an RPG to address this sort of material is going to hinge a lot on whether you consider the risk of said RPG visiting 2) as a result of a participant's brainfart is acceptable or not.
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Mar 11, 2019 14:33
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At every step of this conversation, I keep thinking about how RPGs themselves sprang up around some very specific themes of killing and being killed. These are serious issues IRL, closely connected to tragedy and serious emotional trauma, but we've been trivializing them for long enough that they've basically become invisible. The ubiquitous, casual killing that takes place in the majority of popular RPGs never seems to be included when folks are talking about sensitive/triggering topics in gaming, which is increasingly weird to me. (Not making a specific argument or judgment here; just thinking some things through and looking for other thoughts on the matter.)
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Mar 11, 2019 15:36
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Trustworthy posted:At every step of this conversation, I keep thinking about how RPGs themselves sprang up around some very specific themes of killing and being killed. These are serious issues IRL, closely connected to tragedy and serious emotional trauma, but we've been trivializing them for long enough that they've basically become invisible. The ubiquitous, casual killing that takes place in the majority of popular RPGs never seems to be included when folks are talking about sensitive/triggering topics in gaming, which is increasingly weird to me. ... i cannot even begin to talk about how utterly asinine this is. this talking point comes up whenever, like, the topic of rape in RPGs does. people going 'but we do murders all the time, why can't we do rapes???' it's almost as if there are qualitative differences here, between the things people experience, have experienced, and D&D's murderhoboing like this entire point is vacuous nonsense that doesn't stand up to even the slightest bit of scrutiny, if you are sincere then congratulations, you have had baby's first qualm. but i have literally never seen this point brought up sincerely. it is a point used entirely to discredit caring about anything.
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Mar 11, 2019 15:45
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Mors Rattus posted:... I mean, that's the direction that some lovely edgelord might take the argument, to justify his hosed-up abuse simulator. But a more reasonable person might look at the stark difference between the okay-ness of casual violence in RPGs and the not-okay-ness of other sensitive issues, and say "Hrmmm, I wonder if it's a great thing that our society has transformed our perceptions of casual violence in this way. Maybe we can and/or should have a thoughtful conversation about this...?* (*But of course nobody can ever have a thoughtful conversation about this, because all it takes is one potentially critical peep about violence in gaming, and an army of nerds will immediately descend, screeching about censorship and the P.C. Police)
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Mar 11, 2019 16:01
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I would agree that the ubiquity of violence as the primary means of conflict resolution in tabletop rpgs is not a great trend. Even in games where violence is not the only tool available, victory still largely comes from dominance rather than from synthesis or transformation. I don't think this is an inherently bad thing, though. I think that these themes and motifs are okay, if not always my jam, in isolation. The problem comes from the lack of variety, from the sheer repetition of these thematic narratives in the medium. That some games are beginning to break out of that mold, slowly but surely, is to me a good thing, even if those games often cover material that is painful or difficult. I don't think that engaging with negative emotions is the only way to do this, though. Games like Golden Sky Stories or other works in the honobono genre are able to escape from the arc of control and violence to embrace arcs of reconciliation and compassion in ways that are warm and nostalgic and pastoral. I maintain, however, that there is a need always for variety, for different approaches, for different themes, for different explorations, but all done well and all done with care and consideration.
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Mar 11, 2019 16:07
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Warthur posted:I think the issue a lot of people have with this sort of area is as follows: This is sort of the reason why something like Malignant has a hard time working while That Dragon Cancer or the like can more easily do so. To have one of these experiences work, everyone involved in the experience has to be on the same page. For a videogame, that has to be just the player and the creative team. For a TTRPG, it has to be the GM, all the players, and the creative team. I'm not even talking about the respectful/disrespectful axis even, just that different people going through somewhat similar experiences can take something very different away from the experience. Even sidestepping that "misery tourism" could easily apply to TDC or any videogame about a tough subject, it seems like there's an easier chance to get a decent experience for the end user that allows them a way to visit and deal with these experiences in a safe way with a video game than a TTRPG. It's another reason to sort of expect TTRPGs to go to "low art", or whatever term people are using for games that sidstep as many of these push button issues as possible-- one player being out of step can really screw up the experience, and it's way easier to get a table full of players onboard with a swords & sorcery style game (even if it's woke and doesn't fall into the awful race & sex issues in the genre) than a game based on these more heavy issues like sex assault or mortality.
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Mar 11, 2019 16:30
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What we're discussing are called Serious Games, games designed with something other than pure entertainment/escapism in mind. They're valid and not really a new thing(Monopoly is a Serious Game that critiques landlords and capitalism). Like any other kind of game you have really really good ones amongst a sea of trash. The big difference is if I make a trash game about being prize fighters big whoop, my game doesn't sell. But loving up serious games means looking like you don't understand an issue or that you're exploiting it for kicks. So yes, it's a valid type of game. But the kind of people that do Serious Games well are often upfront that their games swing closer to therapy tools than party aides. And if someone's not into it you usually just say "Yeah, this one's heavy, I only play it with close friends." Instead of trying to make them get it for an hour.
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Mar 11, 2019 16:32
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I think it's easier for us to dissociate from violence because TV, Movies, and Video Games have been training us to do it for years. Disassociating from violent sexual assault, particularly when you are the primary actor, is more difficult.
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Mar 11, 2019 16:44
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Kurieg posted:I think it's easier for us to dissociate from violence because TV, Movies, and Video Games have been training us to do it for years. Disassociating from violent sexual assault, particularly when you are the primary actor, is more difficult. Also, the chance you have a survivor of sexual assault or abuse at your table without realizing it is enough to need to be really careful with those elements in any game.
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Mar 11, 2019 16:52
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Trustworthy posted:I mean, that's the direction that some lovely edgelord might take the argument, to justify his hosed-up abuse simulator. Again: you are literally the first person I have ever seen that has seemed to be even slightly sincere and talking in good faith about this particular argument.
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Mar 11, 2019 16:55
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Mors Rattus posted:... MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 17:47
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I think Mors's issue with it was because it's the go-to response from chuds that want to downplay gross poo poo in RPG books. It takes a little bit to readjust to someone arguing in good faith about something that you've only seen used disingenuously.
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Mar 11, 2019 17:52
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Yeah if anything it ties into the discussion of LARPs. Most elf game circles, particularly the ones that are open to the public, desperately need to learn how to use safety tools/build a safe culture in their games. And like 3% of people running those circles know or care enough to do it.
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Mar 11, 2019 17:53
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Lumbermouth posted:I think Mors's issue with it was because it's the go-to response from chuds that want to downplay gross poo poo in RPG books. It takes a little bit to readjust to someone arguing in good faith about something that you've only seen used disingenuously. Pretty much this, yes.
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Mar 11, 2019 17:55
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Tons of kids grew up playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians, yelling bang at each other with finger guns. Even taking a chess piece is an abstract killing. But if an adult (say a teacher) came upon a group of children playing pantomime rape cps would be called in a loving heartbeat. Everyone would be asking "where did these children get this idea?".
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Mar 11, 2019 18:06
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For the sake of discussion, what if someone at your table had witnessed first-hand a grisly murder? Would that cause anyone to re-think how they deal with violence in the next session of D&D, where you may be expected to slaughter goblin families or somesuch? An example I can think of: In the current Critical Role campaign, (and I apologize for spoilers) Sam Riegel has the opportunity to kill a baby Manticore in front of its mother... and everyone around the table kind of cringes, but his character does the deed, causing the mother to immediately go into a rage. I feel like this scene could be extremely triggering for someone who has lost a child. As a new father myself, it's fairly triggering for me, and I have been fortunate enough not to experience this sort of loss, so I can't even begin to imagine how it would feel for someone else. Yeah. I think there is absolutely room to have some discussions around how we portray violence in our TTRPG's.
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Mar 11, 2019 18:08
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Mors Rattus posted:Pretty much this, yes. I mean, it's a conversation about gaming on the internet; I don't blame you for automatically assuming the worst. 
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Mar 11, 2019 18:08
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Finster Dexter posted:For the sake of discussion, what if someone at your table had witnessed first-hand a grisly murder? Would that cause anyone to re-think how they deal with violence in the next session of D&D, where you may be expected to slaughter goblin families or somesuch? I think there's also a LOT of room to develop RPGs where violence isn't the only, first, or even expected answer. heck, there's room to develop RPGs where violence is pretty much the worst possible answer.
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Mar 11, 2019 18:11
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thespaceinvader posted:I think there's also a LOT of room to develop RPGs where violence isn't the only, first, or even expected answer. I sort of wish this were the default for RPGs. I know Palladium/Kevin Siembeda are super terrible, but one thing I always appreciated, and significantly influenced our Rifts campaigns, was the fact that you got way more XP for solving problems non-violently, and Kevin explicitly calls out how that should always be the preferred way to deal with things. Granted, his games have plenty of our things worth criticizing, though.
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Mar 11, 2019 18:17
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I think it is largely a matter of distance. It is relatively easy to disassociate with things that happen to other people, especially if they are imaginary people. But trauma that has happened to someone you know or you yourself? That might not be a good subject for a game.
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Mar 11, 2019 18:26
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WaywardWoodwose posted:Tons of kids grew up playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians, yelling bang at each other with finger guns. Even taking a chess piece is an abstract killing. But if an adult (say a teacher) came upon a group of children playing pantomime rape cps would be called in a loving heartbeat. Everyone would be asking "where did these children get this idea?". Instead children just play doctor. They do have a social role for exploring bodies and sexuality, but it's far different.
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Mar 11, 2019 18:52
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Do kids actually do that? That's one of those things that I've only ever heard of in like TV and movies, not actual life. (Not saying it doesn't exist ; honest question.)
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Mar 11, 2019 18:57
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Xiahou Dun posted:Do kids actually do that? That's one of those things that I've only ever heard of in like TV and movies, not actual life. Yep, it's just cover for curiosity about each others bodies. Here's an okay article going over what it means: https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/sexual-intelligence/201008/catching-your-kid-playing-doctor e: my actual source for this is a class I took on human sexuality and stuff in university, but that was just the first thing I pulled up on a google search to link. Arivia fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 19:02
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Finster Dexter posted:For the sake of discussion, what if someone at your table had witnessed first-hand a grisly murder? Would that cause anyone to re-think how they deal with violence in the next session of D&D, where you may be expected to slaughter goblin families or somesuch? For what it's worth I've seen a handful of people over the years talk about their experience with things like military-esque RPGs after they've come back from actually serving and how yeah, actually the whole thing loses a lot of its appeal. Not that it should be taken as a universal in all cases, but there's definitely something to the idea that someone who's experienced violent trauma may not be as super enthused about engaging in fictionalized violence in their tabletop gaming as someone who hasn't.
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Mar 11, 2019 19:10
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WaywardWoodwose posted:Tons of kids grew up playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians, yelling bang at each other with finger guns. Even taking a chess piece is an abstract killing. But if an adult (say a teacher) came upon a group of children playing pantomime rape cps would be called in a loving heartbeat. Everyone would be asking "where did these children get this idea?". Finster Dexter posted:For the sake of discussion, what if someone at your table had witnessed first-hand a grisly murder? Would that cause anyone to re-think how they deal with violence in the next session of D&D, where you may be expected to slaughter goblin families or somesuch? MadScientistWorking fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 19:13
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Arivia posted:Yep, it's just cover for curiosity about each others bodies. Here's an okay article going over what it means: https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/sexual-intelligence/201008/catching-your-kid-playing-doctor Yeah I was familiar with the concept. I'd just never encountered somebody who had actually done that as a child.
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Mar 11, 2019 19:20
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Xiahou Dun posted:Yeah I was familiar with the concept. I'd just never encountered somebody who had actually done that as a child. You'll probably never know most people (the people that you are closest to, even) well enough for them to divulge that information to you, makes sense to me that most people are only comfortable mentioning it when they're anonymous
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Mar 11, 2019 19:40
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O yeah probably. I mean I wouldn't care but I'm a weird sex-positive Eurotrash. It's not like I did a scientific poll on this, it's just been a thing that keeps cropping up and I've been idly asking people about for a while (cause I thought it was weird), so it was interesting to get confirmation on it actually occurring instead of being just a screen-writing trope. Up and till now, all I knew was none of my friends or girlfriends that I've asked have admitted to doing it. To give a dumb random analogy, last summer I actually saw someone do the "wrench open a fire-hydrant and all the neighborhood kids play in the spray" thing and I was like, o, huh, that really does happen in real life, never saw that before. This is the platonic ideal of not a big thing. Anyway, this is the silliest derail just cause I was vaguely curious.
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Mar 11, 2019 19:47
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| # ? May 26, 2024 01:32 |
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Arivia posted:Instead children just play doctor. They do have a social role for exploring bodies and sexuality, but it's far different. It's a really, really great program that unflinchingly answers kids' questions about bodies, reproduction, etc.
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Mar 11, 2019 19:51
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