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I'm sure this is all agitprop by CIA-backed rebels, just around the corner Papi Maduro is giving away unlimited bottles of pure Bolivarian water to all comers.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:28
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I don't think any of them are going to try to drink the water as is. e: Really it's quite telling that the people in the video immediately draw the conclusion that the soldiers are there just to get them away so there won't be more pictures of people trying to bottle that water. It's quite possible even likely that someone at least wanted to stop people getting sick (even if they likely don't have any replacement to offer) and therefore order in soldiers and police to keep people away, but the government is so concerned with image and appearances (hence denying the crisis for years and years, and still denying the full extent of the crisis, see the videos of the fully-stocked super markets) rather than actually trying to address the problems that that's the first conclusion people draw. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 20:32
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Ruzihm posted:Ideally Maduro/local authorities (if any difference exists) would have already announced a plan to bring in clean water. If that water is actually full of poo poo, it might be faster to bring in water rather than try to filter out the poo poo let alone try to distill it. Agreed 100%. It's effectively suicide for some of those people - already physically stressed, and if they do get sick, a lot of them will die from dysentery or cholera. The best option is get power back and get the water flowing. Or declare a goddamn civil medical emergency and ask the UN* to bring in water. "No drinking water in Caracas" surely qualifies as an emergency. *excluding the US obviously but realistically how you do that when *only* they have the logistical capacity is a challenge and a half
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Mar 11, 2019 20:34
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Rust Martialis posted:The best option is get power back and get the water flowing. Or declare a goddamn civil medical emergency and ask the UN* to bring in water. "No drinking water in Caracas" surely qualifies as an emergency. The best option is for Maduro to resign and for the transitional authorities to accept aid from anyone who's offering.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:39
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Rust Martialis posted:*excluding the US obviously but realistically how you do that when *only* they have the logistical capacity is a challenge and a half
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Mar 11, 2019 20:41
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Ruzihm posted:Keeping people from increasing their short term water needs (e.g., by getting sick) is the correct thing to do until water actually arrives. Yeah these people are too dumb to understand they shouldn't drink that water raw unless they literally cant get any other fresh water for days. Or maybe most of them know how to boil unclean water. But yeah, lets keep sending soldiers to block the only sources of water for poor people. No one is drinking unclean water for fun. They are desperate and out of other options. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 20:42
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Rust Martialis posted:Agreed 100%. It's effectively suicide for some of those people - already physically stressed, and if they do get sick, a lot of them will die from dysentery or cholera. Why would Maduro let an emergency be declared when he is so ignorant he won't even say his country is in crisis before the power outage? He still pretends there is no food insecurity.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:44
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Sinteres posted:The best option is for Maduro to resign and for the transitional authorities to accept aid from anyone who's offering. No. Water now, people will *die*. Get rid of Maduro next week.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:44
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zapplez posted:Yeah these people are too dumb to understand they shouldn't drink that water raw unless they literally cant get any other fresh water for days. It is not a source of water, the same way a pile of broken glass isn’t a source of delicious potato chips. Chill with your bloodlust for chavista death, literally every other country in the world would keep people from drinking poo poo water.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:46
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uninterrupted posted:It is not a source of water, the same way a pile of broken glass isn’t a source of delicious potato chips. you're deluded if you think any of these people are chavistas.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:48
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uninterrupted posted:It is not a source of water I must correct the comrade here, it is a source of water. Obviously left-wing socialist soldiers were only trying to be helpful since they don't want working class Venezuelans to waste fuel on boiling water unnecessarily and redirect them to safer sources of river water. But water is water and it is left-wing to admit that.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:51
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zapplez posted:Yeah these people are too dumb to understand they shouldn't drink that water raw unless they literally cant get any other fresh water for days. If there are a lot of pollutants/salts in that water you would need to distill it to get it to a point where it will hydrate you. A household can distill about 3 cups every hour per boiling pot of dirty water, if the contaminants aren't highly concentrated. But, anyone who doesn't do this distillation process before drinking would increase aggregate water needs.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:51
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Rust Martialis posted:The best option is get power back and get the water flowing. Or declare a goddamn civil medical emergency and ask the UN* to bring in water. "No drinking water in Caracas" surely qualifies as an emergency. It's important to note there's also been a water-supply crisis for years now. Even in Caracas, water service is heavily rationed in most areas, and in other parts of the country, it's not uncommon for people to go days or weeks without getting water flowing through the pipes, so people manage however they can. In other words, even if the Maduro government could restore power today, we'd still have to deal with a lack of supply of clean water.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:57
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Randarkman posted:It was dangerous in general. Calling the crime rate in Venezuela "pretty high" is an epic understatement. You know what else is an epic understatement? Comparing it to a brutal, bloody civil war where airstrikes and chemical weapons have been used against the civilian population.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:59
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Main Paineframe posted:You know what else is an epic understatement? Comparing it to a brutal, bloody civil war where airstrikes and chemical weapons have been used against the civilian population. I'd call that an overstatement. It's still true Venezuela is one of several countries in Latin America which has a violent death rate that sees them compete with countries that are locked in brutal civil wars. Venezuela actually falls short of Syria on average (on murders at least, checked it), though El Salvador might reach up there, though that might probably just be labelled a kind of war any way.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:05
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There's been some unrest in Maturin today, and it looks like a National Guard soldier might have been shot. You see him fall to the ground after you hear a gunshot at 0:25: https://twitter.com/lumworld/status/1105194622568009729 I haven't seen this confirmed anywhere yet, but I'm quite sure that the video is from today and that it is from Maturin.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:07
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Chuck Boone posted:There's been some unrest in Maturin today, and it looks like a National Guard soldier might have been shot. You see him fall to the ground after you hear a gunshot at 0:25: Also at least one guy in the dispersing crowd looks to be carrying a revolver or some sort of pistol.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:09
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Honestly this is one of those moments where you can really see the motivations of the US-coup supporters. If they actually cared about the Venezuelan people, there’d be no reason to complain about soldiers keeping people from drinking heavily polluted water, as literally any other nation would. However, if they just want Maduro supporters to die to make up for their expropriated capital, then its no surprise they gleefully embraced the blackout, and that they’re furious the democratically elected government is preventing those goddamn poors from gargling mouthfuls of dysentery.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:10
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Ruzihm posted:Chuck just said the water that the guards were stationed at is polluted & smells bad. I think it's a safe assumption you'd get sick drinking it So boiling water to purify it is a thing that doesn't exist in your world?
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Mar 11, 2019 21:11
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:So boiling water to purify it is a thing that doesn't exist in your world? No, because simply boiling water doesn't purify water at all. Simply boiling only kills organisms in the water. Distilling or filtering the water will purify it. Ruzihm posted:If there are a lot of pollutants/salts in that water you would need to distill it to get it to a point where it will hydrate you. A household can distill about 3 cups every hour per boiling pot of dirty water, if the contaminants aren't highly concentrated. Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 21:12
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:So boiling water to purify it is a thing that doesn't exist in your world? Even the western media isn’t running with the “let them drink poison” angle since it’s unbelievably dumb: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-11/caracas-goes-thirsty-as-power-crisis-shuts-down-water-plants
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Mar 11, 2019 21:21
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Also it's not a US coup, the only coup that's been made was by Maduro and gang undermining the national assembly and the democratic process in order to remain in power against the consitution. What is happening is the long ongoing and increasingly desperate struggle of Venezuealans to oppose that process and bring down Maduro's government which the majority have blamed for the crisis for years. To be honest though if nothing is done (if anything can be done that is) about the power outages and the water pumping failing then we'll probably see a shift away from opposition protests and rallies and over to just full-blown food (and water) riots.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:22
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There's apparently looting in Maracaibo: https://twitter.com/Madepalmar/status/1105197089238237186 https://twitter.com/Javierito321/status/1105185175821012995 https://twitter.com/ConflictsW/status/1105202838672678913
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Mar 11, 2019 21:27
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Randarkman posted:Also it's not a US coup Oh fun this again. Guaido’s constitutional argument is invalid, as the Supreme Court (the final interpreter of Venezuelan law) has already ruled. The argument against the Supreme Court ruling , in its entirety, is “well Maduro appointed judges we disagree with, so they’re not valid!” The argument saying the elections were rigged is dubious, given the opposition was so wildly unpopular they asked election observers not to come. They did this because they knew they would lose, and the election officials wouldn’t see widespread election fraud, hurting the opposition argument that the election was rigged. We should probably add this to the OP as the argument that Guaido isn’t trying to illegally overthrow the government keeps coming up and is wholly untenable.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:30
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Also people who have been interviewed collecting the water from the river appear to recgonize that they can't drink the water, but you need water for more things than just drinking (they mention bathing and cleaning, the thought is kind of harrowing). Though that possibly wouldn't mean that some kid or a really desperately thirsty person wouldn't give it a try. Some of them seem to mention drinking bottled water (would that still be available at a price anyone could afford? I assume bottled water is pretty normal in Venezueala anyway, though if it is it obviously isn't really on the menu as this incident proves).uninterrupted posted:Oh fun this again. Really I shouldn't bother replying to this, so I'll make it short. The Venezuelan supreme court has been unconstitutionally co-opted by the government in order to circumvent the national assembly after the opposition defeated the PSUV in the national assembly elections, this also included setting up the constituent assembly as a rival institution (one filled with PSUV supporters) to the national assembly. Prominent opposition candidates were banned and/or arrested and whole parties outlawed, rendering the 2018 elections a farce, and the Venezuelan insitituion responsible for overseeing the elections also noted that there were several irregularities that were evident of rigging. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 21:31
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uninterrupted posted:Oh fun this again. Exactly it's like Trump appointing Gorsuch/Kavanugh to SCOTUS, under rule of law if they were to rule arrest of opposition politicians legal than it is legal and constitutional, too bad liberals can't follow their own logic about so-called independent judiciary!
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Mar 11, 2019 21:33
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Randarkman posted:Also people who have been interviewed collecting the water from the river appear to recgonize that they can't drink the water, but you need water for more things than just drinking (they mention bathing and cleaning, the thought is kind of harrowing). Though that possibly wouldn't mean that some kid or a really desperately thirsty person wouldn't give it a try. Some of them seem to mention drinking bottled water (would that still be available at a price anyone could afford? I assume bottled water is pretty normal in Venezueala anyway, though if it is it obviously isn't really on the menu as this incident proves). water can be in a state where it is unusable for cleaning or bathing and boiling polluted or tainted water does not make it potable it's not safe to assume that the polluted, smelly river being discussed is safe for drinking from, bathing with, or cleaning with even if you boil the water you're using.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:39
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Condiv posted:water can be in a state where it is unusable for cleaning or bathing and boiling polluted or tainted water does not make it potable I'm not saying the people were right. It's just what they were saying when interviewed. At the end of the day someone sent in soldiers to stop people bottling the water, and while it most likely was correct to stop people from doing this, I have the feeling that someone simply panicked, and will likely contribute to alot of anger at the authorities (see the people in the video saying that they have only come so that there won't be photos and videos of it and that that's all Maduro cares about). To be honest I don't really know if there was anything else that could be done. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 21:44
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Typo posted:Exactly it's like Trump appointing Gorsuch/Kavanugh to SCOTUS, under rule of law if they were to rule arrest of opposition politicians legal than it is legal and constitutional, too bad liberals can't follow their own logic about so-called independent judiciary! The legal arguments all exist just to avoid actually having to argue why they think the opposition would be better than Maduro and fix the nation's problems. In reality you could use the same logic to justify regime change in virtually any country, since you'll always be able to find corruption/illegal behavior. Another country could argue for promoting regime change in the US on the basis of Trump's actions, for example. And the Maduro government is actually not exactly high on the list of countries guilty of varying degrees of corruption/atrocities. The only reasonable argument for anyone to make supporting removing Maduro from power in favor of the opposition would involve explaining why they believe Guaido/the opposition would be better and fix the country's problems. Unfortunately, Guaido is bad, so it's difficult to make this argument. The only real plausible argument that Guaido being in power would improve Venezuela's situation is "if he isn't in power the US will further sanction the country, killing/harming countless more people" (though "he's better because the US is metaphorically holding the country at gunpoint" doesn't exactly sound good as an argument). Because if you ignore that, the rest of the situation is very predictable - Guaido will just allow US/foreign interests to profit from Venezuelan resources, and things would likely improve for the upper/upper-middle classes and became significantly worse for the poor as social programs are dismantled. As has happened in other countries with pro-Western governments. The kind of depressing thing is that even if this happens, we'll likely still receive a narrative implying that things are much better, since the sort of English-speaking voices we'll hear in the US are the kind of people who actually would benefit from the kind of policy folks like Guaido support - people with enough money to afford the goods/services that would become more available without price controls (and who never needed the government services implemented under Chavez to begin with).
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Mar 11, 2019 22:01
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uninterrupted posted:Honestly this is one of those moments where you can really see the motivations of the US-coup supporters. You understand that most developed or developing nations the citizens don't have to resort to drinking sewer water period right? And the countries that are so desperate their isn't clean water available period, don't have soldiers shooing them away from a bad PR picture. We are furious the government has stolen so much for so long that they cant have reliable fresh water. How is that so hard to understand in your broke brain?
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Mar 11, 2019 22:03
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Captain Cholera haha
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Mar 11, 2019 22:03
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maduro put all of venezuela's water filtration power & tech into his toilet so only the freshest water would splash back onto his butt on the first release.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:07
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zapplez posted:You understand that most developed or developing nations the citizens don't have to resort to drinking sewer water period right? And the countries that are so desperate their isn't clean water available period, don't have soldiers shooing them away from a bad PR picture. Natural disasters happen all over the globe, with states at varying degrees of preparedness, but wealthy Venezuelan expats are the only ones upset their former countrymen aren’t drinking poison.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:08
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Ytlaya posted:The legal arguments all exist just to avoid actually having to argue why they think the opposition would be better than Maduro and fix the nation's problems. In reality you could use the same logic to justify regime change in virtually any country, since you'll always be able to find corruption/illegal behavior. Another country could argue for promoting regime change in the US on the basis of Trump's actions, for example. And the Maduro government is actually not exactly high on the list of countries guilty of varying degrees of corruption/atrocities. Guaido only has to do two to be better than Maduro, which is fully recognize the humanitarian crisis and organize elections. There are currently pretty much no functioning social programs in Venezuela and foreign interests are already profiting from Venezuelan resources, and the only ones kind of shielded from the disaster are the ones highest up in the PSUV and the security services. You reading the center left, nordic welfare state rethoric of Guaido's Popular Will party (which is just one opposition party btw, and the actual leader of that party is in prison) as indisputable proof that Venezuela once rid of Maduro will begin privatizing everything that moves and cackling as they dismantle the social programs for the poor does not mean that this is actually true in the real world.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:13
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Ruzihm posted:maduro put all of venezuela's water filtration power & tech into his toilet so only the freshest water would splash back onto his butt on the first release. el Beso de
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Mar 11, 2019 22:15
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Ytlaya posted:
I agree, it is just "a little suspicious" that there are no spanish posts on these boards and only (obviously bourgeois) English speakers and this is why it is important for us to continue to post on twitter and SA, we are speaking on behalf of real Venezuelans working class who are unable to speak and giving voices to the Maduro supporting socialist working class
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Mar 11, 2019 22:16
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Condiv posted:water can be in a state where it is unusable for cleaning or bathing and boiling polluted or tainted water does not make it potable If the water is that far gone, why isn't Maduro or the rest of the government asking for international aid like a sane, humane leader would do?
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Mar 11, 2019 22:17
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Typo posted:I agree, it is just "a little suspicious" that there are no spanish posts on these boards and only (obviously bourgeois) English speakers i feel like i'm doing a good deed teaching people who think you can boil sewage into potability that you can in fact not do that.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:18
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:If the water is that far gone, why isn't Maduro or the rest of the government asking for international aid like a sane, humane leader would do? Uh, because the rest of the world is staging false flag truck burnings/shipping weapons to right wing militias/did you forget literally last week when 200 soldiers nearly invaded Venezuela? Golly, why didn’t Britain just ask Hilter for some food?
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Mar 11, 2019 22:21
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Has Guaido come out with a position on “is garbage edible” or is he waiting for instructions from Abrams?
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Mar 11, 2019 22:25
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