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Gripweed posted:The G-Lucifer can do the Moonlight Butterfly, so that would put G-Reco after Turn A. Why? The Turn A Gundam has been around for a very, very long time and has reset the solar system multiple times.
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Mar 10, 2019 21:25
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Darth Walrus posted:Why? The Turn A Gundam has been around for a very, very long time and has reset the solar system multiple times. I don't think that's true? My understanding is that the Turn X drifted into the Solar System from aliens and humans reverse engineered it's systems to create the Turn A. And shortly thereafter there was the war that destroyed civilization, leading to the events of Turn A Gundam
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Mar 10, 2019 21:29
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Live action CCA with no explanation as to what the hell is happening.
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Mar 10, 2019 21:30
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Tulalip Tulips posted:Live action CCA with no explanation as to what the hell is happening. Minus the Axis Shock that wouldn't be very hard to follow for someone coming in cold.
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Mar 10, 2019 21:45
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I'm gonna galaxy brain the hell out of you: Have Lalah live, because she and Haman are rolled into the same character.
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Mar 10, 2019 22:00
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Gripweed posted:I don't think that's true? My understanding is that the Turn X drifted into the Solar System from aliens and humans reverse engineered it's systems to create the Turn A. And shortly thereafter there was the war that destroyed civilization, leading to the events of Turn A Gundam That was how things kicked off, but the general implication from Turn A is that the Moonlight Butterfly has wiped out civilisation multiple times after someone dug up the Turns. Hence all the mutually incompatible Gundam shows happening in this version.
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Mar 10, 2019 22:00
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Darth Walrus posted:That was how things kicked off, but the general implication from Turn A is that the Moonlight Butterfly has wiped out civilisation multiple times after someone dug up the Turns. Hence all the mutually incompatible Gundam shows happening in this version. This is how Turn A is implied to be the sequel to all Gundam shows, after every previous Gundam continuity someone dug up the Turn A/X and re-Butterflied the world causing history to restart into another calendar. Turn A is the final iteration because it's the point where someone digs up the Turn A/X and doesn't end up destroying the world finally.
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Mar 10, 2019 22:37
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I don't think Turn A (or Tomino, rather) really cares about trying to reconcile all of Gundam on a literal level.
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Mar 10, 2019 22:42
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Motto posted:I don't think Turn A (or Tomino, rather) really cares about trying to reconcile all of Gundam on a literal level. Oh absolutely not. But we're geeks on an internet anime forum on the fifth iteration of a years long thread about a Japanese media property, overthinking trivial stuff that doesn't matter and is completely beneath the notice of the original creators is sort of the default operating procedure for such a gathering.
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Mar 10, 2019 22:58
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1st Stage Midboss posted:
Oh I see Tomino is just Georgelucasing his own work due to being elderly and/or confused.
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Mar 10, 2019 23:04
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Tulalip Tulips posted:Live action CCA with no explanation as to what the hell is happening. Well, that'd be true to CCA at least.
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Mar 11, 2019 00:40
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HitTheTargets posted:I'm gonna galaxy brain the hell out of you: Have Lalah live, because she and Haman are rolled into the same character. Reductive adaptations never work, because it just snowballs into more problems come the sequels.
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Mar 11, 2019 01:29
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1st Stage Midboss posted:Within the show, G-Reco is quite specifically post-UC, as late as episode 24. It does a lot of harm and no good. On the one end, Turn A is set long after the end. Almost no-one remembers the Black History, and the few who do are committed to keeping it secret so that it never comes again. The casual knowledge of the UC in G-Reco fits better before it, not after. On the other, Turn A, like so many other Gundam shows, reaches the edge of obliteration, but unlike the usual half step back for a finale, where the end could come again at any time, Turn A ends with a solid, happy peace, where the two sides have learned to get along and integrate, with the Mobile Suits going full swords to plowshares. Having it be followed by another round of "Everything goes to hell" with extra cannibalism ruins what was on its own a perfect ending for Gundam as a metaseries. For G-Reco, meanwhile, it cuts the show off from the UC to an absurd degree. They're not talking about the sins of their fathers. They're talking about the sins of people further back than the ancient Mesopotamians.
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Mar 11, 2019 02:55
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It also defeats the naming of the series Ɐ Gundam, as in math that represents a logic symbol for every/for each or for all, meaning to all gundam series regardless of universe. That is the nerdiest thing I've typed so far this year.
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Mar 11, 2019 03:09
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It's ok, I think it was the same time he said that bit, that he said G Gundam was a UC show that happened inbetween everything else and Turn A. Which is either rad that at some point Master Asia was running around hundreds and hundreds of years after Amuro and Char or further proof that he was doing it to annoy fans that obsess about timeline stuff.
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Mar 11, 2019 04:31
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EthanSteele posted:It's ok, I think it was the same time he said that bit, that he said G Gundam was a UC show that happened inbetween everything else and Turn A. Which is either rad that at some point Master Asia was running around hundreds and hundreds of years after Amuro and Char or further proof that he was doing it to annoy fans that obsess about timeline stuff. Was there any doubt?
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Mar 11, 2019 04:49
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chiasaur11 posted:It does a lot of harm and no good. Devil's advocate here. It's pretty easy to logically connect/handwave away the first point if you want to, since a big part of the climax of Turn A was the revelation of the Black History to the cast at large and it's very easy to assume that they might try the tack of "okay trying to suppress it ultimately didn't work so maybe we should try to learn from it instead" instead. "We fought one last war and now there is a permanent peace" is about as implausible a conclusion as you can get, even in a show as fundamentally optimistic as Turn A. The ending to Turn A is fantastic but there's absolutely nothing in it to suggest that humanity has permanently solved human conflict and that mobile suits will never be used to fight again. Hell, the entire plot of G-Reco is nominally peaceful people relearning what war is in real time, because it's been so drat long since a real war was fought that no one remembers how to do it - and yet they're still ready and rarin' to fight. The UC is treated as ancient, partially-remembered history in the show, not a recent memory. Klim Nick refers to Jahannam like you and I would refer to Gilgamesh, and as said above a central point of the entire show is that war has been gone for so many generations that people don't even know what it means. Turn A and G-Reco both trip each other up because both of them profess an ending that is an end to conflict. The bad guy warmongers get killed or marginalized and the good guys manage to stuff the warfare genie back in the bottle, at least for the time being. If Turn A takes place after G-Reco, then war began again after the fact. If G-Reco takes place after Turn A, then war began after the fact. You can't escape either series stepping on the other's toes. That said, I'll agree that Turn A feels like a better bookend than G-Reco does, even though I love both shows. Edit: For an example of an in-franchise "war is over, forever" ending that is immediately shown to be ephemeral and fleeting, see Gundam Wing, where the TV show ends with a declaration of permanent peace and has the protagonists send their mobile suits off to the sun to melt and then Endless Waltz features them having to chase down their mobile suits because whoops there's a new conflict almost immediately because humans are bastards. Kanos fucked around with this message at 08:56 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 08:47
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Kanos posted:Devil's advocate here. Or Endless Waltz' ending, which says mobile suits are no more forever, and then Frozen Teardrop happens.
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Mar 11, 2019 14:45
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Astoundingly Ugly Baby posted:Actually it's gonna be some weird bad poo poo and the mobile suits will be covered in greebles and look like walking scrap metal like the Transformers. Everybody will hate it except for a microscopic nerd minority and it will kill Gundam in America for another 20 years. This. Let's not forget movie executives will be calling the shots on this thing. I watched CCA for the first time recently and the experience was kind of shocking. I can't even begin to imagine how a normal person is supposed to view that movie. Like, I didn't realize how popular Gundam was/is in Japan until I saw CCA and realized that movie was expected to generate a profit.
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Mar 11, 2019 17:28
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:Or Endless Waltz' ending, which says mobile suits are no more forever, and then Frozen Teardrop happens. that was such a bizarre addition. Wing was decently popular, so I'm really surprised the writer included the " no more sequels ever, gently caress you" at the end of the ova/movie.
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Mar 11, 2019 17:56
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Marx Headroom posted:This. Let's not forget movie executives will be calling the shots on this thing. There's an interview where Tomino says his only regret is "being unable to become a film director" so I think he knows its completely impenetrable if you try and watch it as a stand alone thing.
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Mar 11, 2019 18:28
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Monaghan posted:that was such a bizarre addition. Wing was decently popular, so I'm really surprised the writer included the " no more sequels ever, gently caress you" at the end of the ova/movie. I mean, when the guiding philosophy of one of the main characters is "total pacifism" then there's only so many ways you can go with it. And that's another reason I don't like Wing in retrospect, even as someone who sometimes thinks of myself as a pacifist, Relena's philosophy was dumb as hell.
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Mar 11, 2019 19:23
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Arcsquad12 posted:The biggest thing is to avoid the urge to make the film the story of the One Year War and instead focus on telling Amuro's story during the war. Well, that is what 0079 was already to be fair. It'd take work for a director to stray from that to being about the One Year War itself. Arcsquad12 posted:Have a set goal in mind: Get the Gundam to Jaburo like you're delivering R2-D2 to the Rebel Base. I don't even think you have to set the goal that far ahead, and think the movie could be about the White Base trying to find a place of safety to drop off all the refugees from Side 7 as Char hounds them all the way while Amuro has to come to terms with his awakening talent at piloting mobile suits and how he views the war and his place in it. It's more in line with the existing story structure as well as being a more human and relatable goal, and could cap the film nicely around the episode 12 mark with Garma's death, Char's betrayal and hints of further mystery, Gihren's speech to act as a sequel hook and show there's a broader war etc. MonsieurChoc posted:Thinking about it Wing is rather on point today, with the advent of drone warfare. The theme Wing and Endless Waltz have about "what is a the place of a soldier during peace time" is quite relevant too I'd imagine. The problem with that is that the rest of Wing surrounds them and Wing is batshit melodrama 95% of the time, with the interesting stuff kind of lost in the remainder. That said, melodrama appeals to people so it's not like that's really a knock against it. I'd think they'd have to re-purpose things a bit, like how Marvel and DC have generally had to streamline comics history and make the characters/setting a bit more plausible but one of the major reasons Marvel's movies have done so well appears to be the on-going soap opera of the characters so if they grounded things a bit more it'd probably work quite well. It probably wouldn't even have to be all that much, though the angel wing and demon Gundams Katoki re-designed might have to be scaled back a bit to sell at least the initial concept of giant robots as war machines to people. RillAkBea posted:Also the entire novelty of the Turn A universe is that it's every Gundam universe so that pretty much crushes it's stand alone status. I don't really think that's true, because the idea it's the end point of every/all Gundam settings only really becomes apparent in the last 7 or 8 episodes and there's 40 odd episodes of setting before that. As a stand alone entry, Turn A's setting is more about Edwardian society being invaded by highly advanced people from the Moon; immediately suggesting there's more going on with the state of Earth, and the fact that the cast keep digging up ancient mobile suits all but confirming there's some technological regression/hidden history poo poo going on. Mind you, I do think that'd be a hard sell as a setting regardless, because making "Pride & Prejudice & Giant loving Robots & War of the Worlds" is probably going to be a stretch for most people, stepping over the bounds of their threshold for fantasy and in to the kind of silliness I think most people would need a bit of a lead up to, rather than just accepting the verisimilitude of straight away. Plus, a lot of the impact of both "pre-existing technology" and the "Black History" is lost if it's the first entry people even learn of the franchise from. chiasaur11 posted:Was there any doubt? Keep in mind that at the end of the same interview where Tomino said that G-Reco took place after Turn A he also told people they should make up their own timeline and that he couldn't wait to hear what they came up with. Plastic_Gargoyle posted:I mean, when the guiding philosophy of one of the main characters is "total pacifism" then there's only so many ways you can go with it. The thing is, Relena goes from mouthing about total pacifism (though it's implied she doesn't entirely believe it, given her implicit allowance of Noin to form a Sanc Kingdom militia) to saying that people need to fight for peace, so even within that context the idea that mobile suits disappear entirely is kind of silly. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 19:31
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The funny bit about "no more mobile suits, forever" is the first novel/manga/whatever to happen after Endless Waltz has Heero swimming down to the bottom of a lake or an ocean to find a busted up Cancer to fix because he needs an MS.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:12
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Marx Headroom posted:This. Let's not forget movie executives will be calling the shots on this thing. The star wars sequel trilogy has kind of changed the narrative on adaptations. Nowadays the cool thing to do is to cram films full of as many "I KNOW WHAT THAT IS BECAUSE I KNOW *insert product*" moments as they can. Even the transformers movies that kicked off the trend of updating old properties into incomprehensible mess products has shifted gears and made bumblebee. Star Trek's Kelvin-verse movies died and now they're making a Picard show. I imagine that they'll stick too close to the Gundam source material so that Bandai can sell as many pre-existing gunpla kits as they can and then make an entirely new line of ver. Movie recolors and Pp-Bandai parts changes.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:34
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I doubt Star Wars invented the concept of or even really popularized the idea of references and/or meta-references really. Kevin Smith's early movies included a poo poo load of them for a start, and Forrest Gump had the titular character stumble into several historic situations that viewers could relate to him through. Bumblebee is hardly a reach as an idea outside references either, since he's one of the most well known and recognizable characters within the franchise. Making a smaller story with a smaller cast focused on one Autobot is pretty straight-forward thinking, and seems more akin to Marvel's approach to the Avengers than anything to do with Star Wars.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:49
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My point is that the current wave of nostalgia exploitation is focused on repeating the old footage rather than changing it, regardless of whether an adaptation change would be good or not.
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Mar 11, 2019 20:52
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That started long before the Star Wars sequels though. Hollywood has been rehashing older properties on and off for decades. I'm pretty sure the complaints about it becoming more focused predate the sequels by a decade or more too. Like, Gus Van Sant made a literal shot for shot remake of Psycho in 1998. He did it as an experiment, but the point is that he did it and that the concept of remakes, references, referential shots, meta-references etc. all predate the Star Wars sequels and really shouldn't be attributed to them. They might be the most visible sign of the popularity of some/all of those trends, but they neither invented or even really popularized the concepts themselves.
tsob fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 20:56
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Again, that's not what I'm saying. My argument is that the Gundam movie is more likely going to be like the sequel trilogy or bumblebee rather than the 2006 transformers film. Hollywood has always been remaking films. The Bayformers movies started a trend within the remake rush of making adaptation changes to designs or characters to be more "up to date" which is how we got scrap heap autobots and JJ-Trek going "not your dad's star trek". Since Force Awakens came out the trend has moved away from that style of update and instead wants to be as visually similar to the old products as it can. We aren't going to get junk heap looking mobile suits, were going to be getting zakus and guncannons that look like 100 million dollar CGI renders of 80s mecha designs.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:02
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Oh, I think I get your argument now. I still don't agree, since I think Marvel if anyone is to blame/thank for designs being closer to their inspiration than Star Wars, but more importantly, since the live action Gundam film will be a world-wide release and not just something made for Japan that line of thinking really doesn't work, since most of the world doesn't have an older fanbase with nostalgia for the original designs.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:07
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If the rest of the world can't appreciate the adorable murder machine that is the Zaku then they have terrible taste.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:16
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Most of the world doesn't even know about the Zaku to decide whether to appreciate or deprecate the design. Heretically, I actually prefer the Destiny redesign for cleaning up the design a little. A lot of the other minor redesigns it's had for various OVAs or gunpla over the years, like the FZ in 0080 are nice too though. It's just Destiny tends to be the most divisive and most well known as a redesign for modern animation. Though, in typing that, I realize Thunderbolt may have overtaken it at this point in both those regards.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:20
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Can't speak for the whole world, but I betcha there are some European and Latin American countries that are down to clown when it comes to 1970s robot anime.
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Mar 11, 2019 21:56
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tsob posted:Most of the world doesn't even know about the Zaku to decide whether to appreciate or deprecate the design. Heretically, I actually prefer the Destiny redesign for cleaning up the design a little. A lot of the other minor redesigns it's had for various OVAs or gunpla over the years, like the FZ in 0080 are nice too though. It's just Destiny tends to be the most divisive and most well known as a redesign for modern animation. Though, in typing that, I realize Thunderbolt may have overtaken it at this point in both those regards. Thunderbolt generally has what I would think a greebly modern design of a Mobile Suit would be, and if that is how the live action folks want to go, they could do worse than drawing from it as their reference point. Seed and Destiny are not bad either, but also have a regrettable tendency to put spikes all over everything ever. Plus, anything cribbed from Seed/D would be instantly recognizable as Seed/D designs, since those are huge stonking properties, decisive as they may be.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:11
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The Zaft Armed Keeper of Unity makes me think that Sunrise and Bandai told Okawara to update the Zaku design and he decided to half-rear end the job. It isn't a bad design but it isn't as good as the OG, which is pretty much what I think of most of SEED's designs. The best Zaku derivatives are probably the Tieren, Leo and the Graze, which draw clear influence from their grandaddy but are unique machines in their own right.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:17
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Arcsquad12 posted:The Zaft Armed Keeper of Unity makes me think that Sunrise and Bandai told Okawara to update the Zaku design and he decided to half-rear end the job. It isn't a bad design but it isn't as good as the OG, which is pretty much what I think of most of SEED's designs. The best Zaku derivatives are probably the Tieren, Leo and the Graze, which draw clear influence from their grandaddy but are unique machines in their own right. We're not talking about derivatives though. The Tieren, Leo, and Graze are all clearly grunt-suits, but they aren't Zakus. Though, now that I'm looking at it side by side, the Seed Zaku looks more like a Geara Doga. Either way, it's the closest thing that exists to "What if 0079 was made in 2006?" that isn't also Thunderbolt, which I think has the gold standard for designs to crib for a live action movie.
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Mar 11, 2019 22:29
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But will the live action movie have interchangeable backpacks. This is important. Without the thruster packs, the only thing really greebly about the thunderbolt suits are their more pronounced verniers and the canvas jackets over the joints. I could live with that in a movie. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Mar 11, 2019 |
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Mar 11, 2019 22:33
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So, speaking of the Tieren, I watched the first episode of 00 as part of my off-and-on attempts to see at least a little of every Gundam series. It's got a broader spread than most of the openers I've seen, hopping between prospectives and around the world, and going through multiple early incidents instead of just playing through one big event. On the upside, it means the show covers a lot of ground in the opener, giving us the main character's childhood, some idea about global geopolitics, some fights, and a rough idea of what a bunch of characters are about. On the more negative side, it means going a little more shallow on any individual point. One thing I think was a bit awkward was how the show waited until the ending to get the viewer up to speed on what Celestial Being is, putting them in the position of the world powers getting a shock to their system... but we also get a lot of shots of Celestial Being's crews talking about The Forecast, so we're also getting a lot of information that the world powers don't have access to, even if the viewer doesn't get full context for it. Dunno how common this is as a viewpoint, and I'm equally unsure how it'd work as part of the whole series, but I think the opener, as an individual episode, would be better either focusing on the world powers with the viewers only getting to know Celestial Being's crews in episode 2 (although the flashback stuff with Setsuna would still work with that. It's another bit of "The Gundams are mysterious things that end wars with powers no-one else can match" from a ground level prospective) or with the writing doing more to put us in the position of the Celestial Being crew, with an idea what their objectives are from the start rather than hearing them from Graham figuring it out or seeing them on the news. I've seen enough Gundam first episodes to see some trends, but I'm starting to wonder what metrics would be interesting to study, like when the main Gundam first shows up, how many characters show up that will be relevant later, that kind of thing. Definitely thinking of IBO and Turn A as the best openers right now, but it's interesting how much of a spread there can be, considering how at least three of them are basically the same plot.
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Mar 11, 2019 23:57
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I want a live action adaptation of G Gundam with extremely problematic racial/nationalistic Gundam designs. Have Mel Brooks write the script. e: And also have really long, repeated scenes of the antagonists manly asses in latex Mobile Trace suits.
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Mar 12, 2019 00:04
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Astoundingly Ugly Baby posted:And also have really long, repeated scenes of the antagonists manly asses in latex Mobile Trace suits. It wouldn't be G Gundam without that.
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Mar 12, 2019 00:06
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