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I can't help but feel if it was an A320neo or A30XWB the FAA would have either grounded them or reduced ETOPS to like 60 minutes
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Mar 12, 2019 05:32
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1105468569800839169 https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1105471621672960000 Well, time for a thread title change for this group of Einsteins
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Mar 12, 2019 15:29
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And all this time I thought people were being disparaging when they'd say "No poo poo, Einstein"
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Mar 12, 2019 15:32
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https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/1105470096691089413 Well, this is turning into a nice little clusterfuck isn't it? Edit:  Word on the street is that EASA is about to issue a grounding order for the max. KodiakRS fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Mar 12, 2019 |
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Mar 12, 2019 16:01
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https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/DCA19MA086.aspxquote:Also, about this time, the FDR data indicated that some small vertical accelerations consistent with the airplane entering turbulence. Shortly after, when the airplane’s indicated airspeed was steady about 230 knots, the engines increased to maximum thrust, and the airplane pitch increased to about 4° nose up and then rapidly pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input. The stall warning (stick shaker) did not activate. 
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Mar 12, 2019 16:17
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hobbesmaster posted:pitched nose down to about 49° in response to column input Oh god. Please tell me this wasn't intentional.
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Mar 12, 2019 16:36
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Stupid Post Maker posted:https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1105468569800839169 He even contradicts himself. Oh maaaaaaaaaaaaaan, I hope it's not another Eurowings. indeed.
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Mar 12, 2019 16:52
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“Things are too complicated!” He typed with two fingers.
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Mar 12, 2019 17:08
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It's bumpy, a particular bump jolts it up a few degrees, and as it's the hardest jolt of the flight so far, the cargo securing device that was getting ready to let go all flight long finally lets go due to this jolt, cargo shifts forward? (At the same time that a stick forward input is made in response to the gust) Dammit, I'm of the ideal (when it comes time to voice lofty ideals) that we should avoid wild speculation and let the NTSB do its job while the wreckage is still warm, but I can't stop myself 
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Mar 12, 2019 18:39
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vessbot posted:It's bumpy, a particular bump jolts it up a few degrees, and as it's the hardest jolt of the flight so far, the cargo securing device that was getting ready to let go all flight long finally lets go due to this jolt, cargo shifts forward? (At the same time that a stick forward input is made in response to the gust) "Nose pitched to 49 degrees nose down in response to control column input" and "Engines spooled up to max thrust" together kinda put the lie to this hopeful theory
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Mar 12, 2019 18:43
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Regarding the MAX, I find it plausible to think it's not a fundamentally flawed aircraft but there could be something like occurred with MU-2s in that there's a particularly difficult or counterintuitive response to a certain abnormal situation. Does that mean it's broken per se? No, but also Boeing can't simply ignore the issue. I'm not sure if grounding the fleet is necessary but it's probably prudent.
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Mar 12, 2019 18:47
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PT6A posted:Regarding the MAX, I find it plausible to think it's not a fundamentally flawed aircraft but there could be something like occurred with MU-2s in that there's a particularly difficult or counterintuitive response to a certain abnormal situation. Does that mean it's broken per se? No, but also Boeing can't simply ignore the issue. I'm not sure if grounding the fleet is necessary but it's probably prudent. If so then surely they need to ground the fleet until adding the MAX to your 737 NG type rating is more than an hour long video?
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Mar 12, 2019 18:51
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a patagonian cavy posted:"Nose pitched to 49 degrees nose down in response to control column input" and "Engines spooled up to max thrust" together kinda put the lie to this hopeful theory I think it's plausible enough that the person writing these super tight-lipped preliminary updates that only list the barest of facts, could have skipped a "... despite a full aft column input until the impact."
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Mar 12, 2019 19:05
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From "Aeronautical Insanity".Boris Galerkin posted:I’m listening to an NPR interview of a 737 MAX pilot for American and he says that his training for the new planes amounted to “56 minutes on an iPad” which was “basically slides and audios” describing the differences. The interviewer also asks if he would have known what to do had he been the the pilot on the Lion Air flight and he says that he knows now because Boeing apparently didn’t mention the new system in their manuals.
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Mar 12, 2019 20:33
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vessbot posted:I think it's plausible enough that the person writing these super tight-lipped preliminary updates that only list the barest of facts, could have skipped a "... despite a full aft column input until the impact." Is it implying that the pilot was suicidal or extremely incompetent?
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Mar 12, 2019 21:01
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MOVIE MAJICK posted:Is it implying that the pilot was suicidal or extremely incompetent? With what they've released as of now, every possibility is open. With my fictional details that you quoted, it might point to a cargo shift or control malfunction.
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Mar 12, 2019 21:24
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PT6A posted:Regarding the MAX, I find it plausible to think it's not a fundamentally flawed aircraft but there could be something like occurred with MU-2s in that there's a particularly difficult or counterintuitive response to a certain abnormal situation. Does that mean it's broken per se? No, but also Boeing can't simply ignore the issue. I'm not sure if grounding the fleet is necessary but it's probably prudent. Well, it is and it isn't. The MAX has all kinds of poo poo in it that would never fly (  ) today in any clean-sheet aircraft, like the warning system, the overhead panel straight out of the Flintstones and all kinds of structural engineering convention that has long since been confined to the wastebin. Add a set of larger, more powerful engines (and all the associated issues with that) and increase the aircraft's size and gross weight far beyond what the original design had anticipated, and you have a recipe for an aircraft that has some rather messy handling characteristics and operating procedures.Now I'm not saying that Boeing didn't spend a huge amount of time anticipating and dealing with said issues - they absolutely did, and the aircraft was very rigourously tested - but it's entirely plausible that they and the FAA missed something in flight testing and the certification process, and when it seems (to me at least) like Boeing is putting bandaid fixes on bandaid fixes to meet an equivalent level of safety, it would indicate that maybe the design has run out upgradability. Personally, I have no horse in this race, but it would seem to me that maybe we are long overdue putting the 737 family out to pasture and going to a clean-sheet design.
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Mar 12, 2019 21:57
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MrChips posted:Personally, I have no horse in this race, but it would seem to me that maybe we are long overdue putting the 737 family out to pasture and going to a clean-sheet design. The Max was a hedge (much like the 747-800) after Boeing decided that replacing the 767-200 and 757s was a better financial move than designing a clean-sheet 737 replacement. It’s still on their list of things to do, but it got moved down the priority list a bit. IIRC correctly, the clean-sheet design was temporarily shelved in 2015.
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Mar 12, 2019 22:10
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MrYenko posted:The Max was a hedge (much like the 747-800) after Boeing decided that replacing the 767-200 and 757s was a better financial move than designing a clean-sheet 737 replacement. It’s still on their list of things to do, but it got moved down the priority list a bit. Boeing still doesn't have a 757 replacement though?
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Mar 12, 2019 22:42
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hobbesmaster posted:Boeing still doesn't have a 757 replacement though? It’s their current in-progress design. That said, it probably won’t resemble the 757 as much as the 767. Personally, I think the 757 is the most beautiful twinjet ever built.
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Mar 12, 2019 22:59
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Kind of ridiculous the 737 can seat more than a 757-200 now.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:17
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MrChips posted:Personally, I have no horse in this race, but it would seem to me that maybe we are long overdue putting the 737 family out to pasture and going to a clean-sheet design. The funny thing is is that the max essentially is a clean sheet airplane from the flight deck door back. New wing, tail, apu, engines, landing gear, brakes, and avionics. Even the way the fuselage is built is different I believe. They just grafted the antediluvian cockpit on the front and called it a 737 and the airlines that operate them can give their pilots an hour of PowerPoint slides for transition training.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:36
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vessbot posted:With what they've released as of now, every possibility is open. With my fictional details that you quoted, it might point to a cargo shift or control malfunction. I can pretty much guarantee it wasn't a cargo shift on an Amazon flight
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Mar 12, 2019 23:46
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MrYenko posted:It’s their current in-progress design. Somebody post the pic of the really long 757 please
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Mar 13, 2019 00:03
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Arson Daily posted:antediluvian cockpit I had to google this word. Thank you for the image.
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Mar 13, 2019 01:32
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Arson Daily posted:If a MAX crashes here or in another western country then get worried, otherwise it’s just third world aviation. This is some ignorant poo poo. I've flown on Ethiopian many times and wouldn't hesitate to do so again.
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Mar 13, 2019 04:37
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Rickety Cricket posted:This is some ignorant poo poo. I've flown on Ethiopian many times and wouldn't hesitate to do so again. It seems the rest of the interest is suggesting the pilots weren't trained well. That the pilots should have been trained to override the MCAS by either just trimming normally or held the trim wheel in place. So either bad training or pilot error. MOVIE MAJICK fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 05:41
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a patagonian cavy posted:"Nose pitched to 49 degrees nose down in response to control column input" and "Engines spooled up to max thrust" together kinda put the lie to this hopeful theory How unrealistic would "pilot got caught off balance by a jolt, fell forward on the throttle and stick" be?
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Mar 13, 2019 05:43
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NightGyr posted:How unrealistic would "pilot got caught off balance by a jolt, fell forward on the throttle and stick" be? Probably not realistic because in arrival/approach phases of flight, the pilots are strapped in and would be aware of oncoming turbulence. Even in the rinky dink general aviation stuff I fly, you wouldn’t be thrown forward into the control column. The airplane isn’t being stopped with your body inside it continuing to move forward via inertia.
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Mar 13, 2019 06:14
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This story is getting real dumb real fastquote:Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash that killed 157 people, an investigation by The Dallas Morning News found.
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Mar 13, 2019 17:45
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Now the 737 Max is grounded in the US too. Southwest has to be thrilled at parking 35 airplanes on top of their ongoing cancellations from their maintenance dispute.
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Mar 13, 2019 20:02
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Its fun as hell right now here: KCOS 131912Z 34047G84KT 1/8SM R17L/0500V1000FT +SN BLSN VV008 M03/M03 A2905 RMK AO2 PK WND 32084/1904 T10281028 PNO $
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Mar 13, 2019 20:48
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0toShifty posted:Its fun as hell right now here: Hmmm... Yeah, I think I'd like to avoid that.
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Mar 13, 2019 20:56
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0toShifty posted:Its fun as hell right now here: It was below 29” earlier
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Mar 13, 2019 21:38
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0toShifty posted:Its fun as hell right now here: I want to go stand out there with a beer. I was in Jackson a few weeks ago when it was -18F before wind chill and sometimes it’s just interesting to walk outside and see what total winter hell feels like. Also 29.05, that’s nuts.
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Mar 13, 2019 22:55
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MrYenko posted:It’s their current in-progress design. I know there was talk a couple years ago that Boeing was considering restarting the 757 line because a) there's still no plane which can adequately replace it and b) the plane found a new niche doing extensive TATL flying not too long after Boeing shuttered the line. Delta just refurbished 100 -200s (including the ex-TWA frames they got from AA in 2007 and a few they picked up from China in the 2010s, including the last few off the line) and has kept all their -300s to this point as well and they can take my money all they want for that.
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Mar 14, 2019 01:39
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Put this next to the “even the pilots were barfing” PIREP https://twitter.com/psswx/status/1105887803806834689
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Mar 14, 2019 02:52
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/RM PILOTS HAVE poo poo SELVES SMELL MDT-SEV
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Mar 14, 2019 03:36
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File that under the “no poo poo Sherlock” heading. Maybe they’d like to fly through a 50000 foot thunderstorm next?
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Mar 14, 2019 05:14
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Rolo posted:Also 29.05, that’s nuts. We didn't get that low but I just set a personal record of 29.11 landing in OMA. 
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Mar 14, 2019 06:40
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