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Giggle Goose posted:I think its quite telling that the Maduro defenders just slid right over this post and didn't even comment on it. its bad, what's there to say about it
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Mar 12, 2019 22:38
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Because there's pages and pages of people theorycrafting based on the merest trace of remotest possibility that the USA has obviously caused X, Y, and Z in Venezuela (blowing up the power grid via the power of the interwebs being the latest example), yet when confronted with absolute evidence of Maduro doing things that they would be screaming about if they happened in another country, there's complete and utter radio silence from those same posters.
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Mar 12, 2019 22:42
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Yeah you'd think something this blatant would be enough to at least put an end to statements like this one. uninterrupted posted:Unlike the forces opposing it, Venezuela has a well developed and fair judicial system.
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Mar 12, 2019 22:47
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Because there's pages and pages of people theorycrafting based on the merest trace of remotest possibility that the USA has obviously caused X, Y, and Z in Venezuela (blowing up the power grid via the power of the interwebs being the latest example), yet when confronted with absolute evidence of Maduro doing things that they would be screaming about if they happened in another country, there's complete and utter radio silence from those same posters. we literally just finished a conversation where you screamed about maduro preventing the boiling of poo poo
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Mar 12, 2019 22:47
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Giggle Goose posted:Yeah you'd think something this blatant would be enough to at least put an end to statements like this one. The Venezuelan judicial system is objectively more just than that of the US, what are you comparing it to? Brazil? France?
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Mar 12, 2019 22:53
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Giggle Goose posted:I think its quite telling that the Maduro defenders just slid right over this post and didn't even comment on it. Do you have any comments on it? Because I haven't noticed any anti-Maduro folks commenting on it either. They're all too busy posting remarks about how cholera isn't that bad, or how you'd have to be crazy to think the aid trucks weren't burned by the government, or how the US's "How To Collapse The Venezuelan Power Grid" class couldn't possibly have anything to do with the collapse of the Venezuelan power grid. If you want to discuss it, then start discussing it. Don't just yell "look, a distraction!" and point at it. Maybe while you're at it, you could clearly express what's in it, because Chuck's post is downright incoherent.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:04
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Ruzihm posted:its bad, what's there to say about it coincidentally this is my feeling on most "trump administration did or said a thing regarding venezuela" news
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Mar 12, 2019 23:19
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Surprising no one, uninterrupted's source is a Max Blumenthal article mischaracterizing a wikileaks document from 2010 saying "Venezuela's power infrastructure is terrible, it's a growing source of discontent and will likely be a galvanizing source of public opinion turning against Chavez".quote:A key to Chavez’[sic]s current weakness is the decline in the electricity sector. There is the grave possibility that some 70 percent of the country’s electricity grid could go dark as soon as April 2010. Water levels at the Guris dam are dropping, and Chavez has been unable to reduce consumption sufficiently to compensate for the deteriorating industry. This could be the watershed event, as there is little that Chavez can do to protect the poor from the failure of that system. This would likely have the impact of galvanizing public unrest in a way that no opposition group could ever hope to generate. At that point in time, an opposition group would be best served to take advantage of the situation and spin it against Chavez and towards their needs. Alliances with the military could be critical because in such a situation of massive public unrest and rejection of the presidency, malcontent sectors of the military will likely decide to intervene, but only if they believe they have sufficient support. This has been the pattern in the past three coup attempts. Where the military thought it had enough support, there was a failure in the public to respond positively (or the public responded in the negative), so the coup failed. Even Blumenthal, propagandist that he is, isn't trying to spin the document as a "How To Collapse The Venezuelan Power Grid" class.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:19
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Main Paineframe posted:Do you have any comments on it? Because I haven't noticed any anti-Maduro folks commenting on it either. They're all too busy posting remarks about how cholera isn't that bad, or how you'd have to be crazy to think the aid trucks weren't burned by the government, or how the US's "How To Collapse The Venezuelan Power Grid" class couldn't possibly have anything to do with the collapse of the Venezuelan power grid. Well its looks like pretty clear proof of media doctoring in order to make an innocent man look guilty of a crime so that Maduro and his lot have someone to blame for the shoddy state of the power grid. I'd hope that most people would look at such a thing and perhaps, just maybe, question the statements that the regime makes a little bit instead of blindly accepting whatever Maduro's propaganda outfit puts out.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:27
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Discendo Vox posted:Surprising no one, uninterrupted's source is a Max Blumenthal article mischaracterizing a wikileaks document from 2010 saying "Venezuela's power infrastructure is terrible, it's a growing source of discontent and will likely be a galvanizing source of public opinion turning against Chavez". what a delightfully facile elision of the substance of the article. speaking of facile elisions, DV, have you figured out what the agenda of the perfidious regime propagandists at Bloomberg was when they told you that Guaido's itinerary is being written for him by the US State Department, including the part where they told him "gently caress off with this european tour nonsense, get back in Venezuela this instant young man"
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Mar 12, 2019 23:28
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:So are you implying the Russians attacked the Venezuelan power grid? I'm implying "cyber attacks aren't even real" is pretty hilarious
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Mar 12, 2019 23:34
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:as is increasingly the case the answer to your question is "Shrug?" What a clusterfuck.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:34
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uninterrupted posted:Check back a page or two, I linked to the US funded group that trained Guaido that wrote up how massive power outages would trigger the overthrow of the democratically elected Venezuelan government. This isn't something this group came up with either, loving with infrastructure is a good way to incite populations
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Mar 12, 2019 23:36
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Regardless of how this whole Venezuela fiasco shakes out, I can rest easy in the knowledge that I'm more correct than average about it.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:37
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Giggle Goose posted:Well its looks like pretty clear proof of media doctoring in order to make an innocent man look guilty of a crime so that Maduro and his lot have someone to blame for the shoddy state of the power grid. I'd hope that most people would look at such a thing and perhaps, just maybe, question the statements that the regime makes a little bit instead of blindly accepting whatever Maduro's propaganda outfit puts out. Are you new to this thread? There is no evil in the world other than USA-controlled evil. Never forget, Maduro might be an incompetent kleptocrat who subverted all of the democratic institutions of his country and drove it into ruin, but at least he has the good taste to blame the USA for everything. That's what really matters.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:39
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predicto posted:Are you new to this thread? Ha ha ha no I've been mostly lurking in here for years but I guess there is a small (admittedly foolish) part of me that thinks there will be that one final bit of proof that will sway some of the more blatant pro-Madurists. Stuff like these two videos is about as clear as it gets.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:42
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predicto posted:Are you new to this thread? it is funny as all hell to see the people who accuse everyone else of being tankies unironically trotting out "sometimes to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs" but hey, as the thread assured me, the eggs probably had being set on fire while still alive coming. because they were probably criminals.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:46
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:it is funny as all hell to see the people who accuse everyone else of being tankies unironically trotting out "sometimes to make an omelette, you have to break a few eggs" So what are your thoughts on the video that the regime seems to be using in order to lay the blame for their electrical problems at the feet of a journalist?
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Mar 12, 2019 23:47
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Giggle Goose posted:Ha ha ha no I've been mostly lurking in here for years but I guess there is a small (admittedly foolish) part of me that thinks there will be that one final bit of proof that will sway some of the more blatant pro-Madurists. Stuff like these two videos is about as clear as it gets. They're not here to try to understand what's going on in Venezuela. The way they treat the actual Venezuelans in this thread is proof of that. This is just another battlefield in the endless war for proving you are more sincere in your hatred of American imperialism than the next guy.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:48
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Giggle Goose posted:So what are your thoughts on the video that the regime seems to be using in order to lay the blame for their electrical problems at the feet of a journalist? His answer is that Elliot Abrams is a ventriloquist or something
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Mar 12, 2019 23:50
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Giggle Goose posted:So what are your thoughts on the video that the regime seems to be using in order to lay the blame for their electrical problems at the feet of a journalist? totally predictable side effect of us deciding to come down on them with a full-court "WE ARE STARVING YOU TO SAVE YOU FROM STARVATION." any leader who doesn't take that opportunity to blame everything up to and including the sun going behind a cloud on American machinations has no understanding of how to read the room. it's utterly shameless propaganda, of course, but since the US narrative has already reached the "your death by bayonet sodomy is the desired endgame of our present course of action" stage (wave hello, Senator Rubio!) it's not like he's going to earn any points by trying to play this like a reasonable moderate waiting for all the facts to come in.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:56
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predicto posted:His answer is that Elliot Abrams is a ventriloquist or something you see, the joke is that I consider a mass murderer on the US payroll tasked with delivering regime change in venezuela a bad thing. this is a risible thing to believe. for reasons.
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Mar 12, 2019 23:58
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:totally predictable side effect of us deciding to come down on them with a full-court "WE ARE STARVING YOU TO SAVE YOU FROM STARVATION." any leader who doesn't take that opportunity to blame everything up to and including the sun going behind a cloud on American machinations has no understanding of how to read the room. Perfect example. There is no evil to discuss other than US evil. There are no lies other than US lies. There is is no party that can be blamed for anything that happens other than the US.
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Mar 13, 2019 00:01
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:totally predictable side effect of us deciding to come down on them with a full-court "WE ARE STARVING YOU TO SAVE YOU FROM STARVATION." any leader who doesn't take that opportunity to blame everything up to and including the sun going behind a cloud on American machinations has no understanding of how to read the room. Now this, this here is some good stuff. So not only is the US to blame for a myriad of issues that go back decades, they are now to blame for the atrocities that Maduro commits against his own people. I feel as though something has come full circle. And look Yeowch, I hate Rubio just about as much as anybody and if it looks like the US is gearing up for an actual invasion, I'll be out there in the streets myself, but what you've typed up here is straight madness. The US made him do it. drat.
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Mar 13, 2019 00:02
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:you see, the joke is that I consider a mass murderer on the US payroll tasked with delivering regime change in venezuela a bad thing. this is a risible thing to believe. for reasons. Oh, not just a mass murderer. A mass murderer AND a ventriloquist!
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Mar 13, 2019 00:03
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Giggle Goose posted:Now this, this here is some good stuff. So not only is the US to blame for a myriad of issues that go back decades, they are now to blame for the atrocities that Maduro commits against his own people. I feel as though something has come full circle. Eventually you too will get weary of refuting the obvious tankie bullshit, and you will stop bothering to respond every time the same tired old poo poo is wheeled out the way everyone else has (certainly all the Venezuelans except poor Chuck Boone), and the tankies finally will achieve the total thread mastery that is their sole raison d'etre.
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Mar 13, 2019 00:07
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predicto posted:Eventually you too will get weary of refuting the obvious tankie bullshit, and you will stop bothering to respond every time the same tired old poo poo is wheeled out the way everyone else has (certainly all the Venezuelans except poor Chuck Boone), and the tankies finally will achieve the total thread mastery that is their sole raison d'etre. Aren't tankies supposed to be the ones in favor of regime change and military interventions?
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Mar 13, 2019 00:13
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Giggle Goose posted:Now this, this here is some good stuff. So not only is the US to blame for a myriad of issues that go back decades, they are now to blame for the atrocities that Maduro commits against his own people. I feel as though something has come full circle. oh, -made- nothing. he absolutely could have preached that we should moderately wait for the facts to come in. he would have gotten jack poo poo for doing so, while our people screamed to the high heavens that it was all just a cover up for his incompetence, but he could have done it. our contribution was just making blaming a scapegoat for working with the Americans the unambiguously smartest thing for him to do under the circumstances. the whole "actually we set the aid on fire, our bad" even gave him a little extra propaganda cachet to sell it with. welcome to the American intervention game, kids. we have a playbook. it does what we need it to do.
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Mar 13, 2019 00:19
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It's kind of funny how tankies nowadays sit here and bitch about US hegemony and yet, are the most counter revolutionary mother fuckers you could imagine. Since Iraq, they have not seen a single revolution anywhere in the world that they've liked, yet they claim to hate the status quo. It's people like the Venezuelans in the streets who change the status quo, and yet y'all hate them for it. Nothing but a bunch of loser rear end shitposters.
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Mar 13, 2019 00:23
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Giggle Goose posted:Now this, this here is some good stuff. So not only is the US to blame for a myriad of issues that go back decades, they are now to blame for the atrocities that Maduro commits against his own people. I feel as though something has come full circle. The US said they were pulling folks from the embassy because they were constraining their options (I.e. they’ll get hit by US bombs). I’ll see you outside.
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Mar 13, 2019 00:26
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uninterrupted posted:The US said they were pulling folks from the embassy because they were constraining their options (I.e. they’ll get hit by US bombs). I’ll see you outside. IE they could be abducted and used as leverage against the US. It's pretty easy to not bomb our own embassy, actually. We have that technology.
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Mar 13, 2019 00:28
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this is one of the genuinely tricky bits in trying to make a regime change happen without setting off a civil war, incidentally. you have to make the leaders think they still have a reason to not piss off the powers that be. because as long as they think they still have the ability to negotiate, they have a reason to not go full scorched earth great Satan when-you-stub-your-toe-in-the-morning-its-the-CIA. you take that away, and their best route to survival rapidly becomes building a countermythology where all the problems are the fault of that grinning mass murderer the US has put in charge of destroying Dear Leader. once that's in place, as we so painfully learned every single time we did this for the last fifty years, you are at best going to be fighting a low intensity conflict there until you leave, no matter how many smashed toddlers you chuck in the water supply. but, well. if you let the place fall on its own terms you run the risk of the replacement not being sufficiently pro-America. truly, impossible to untie this gordian knot.
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Mar 13, 2019 00:30
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:truly, impossible to untie this gordian knot. Which is why America keeps resorting to the Alexander method
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Mar 13, 2019 00:42
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420 Gank Mid posted:Which is why America keeps resorting to the Alexander method in fairness, under Obama we did try, in one case, just letting a democratically elected opposition take power we then promptly bankrolled the poo poo out of the Egyptian military to reclaim control from the uppity peasants who dared suggest their support of the United States might become conditional going forward, because the Egyptian people had proved they just weren't ready for democracy. Obama was significantly better than this game than Trump is. not that it mattered in the long run, because as we see here you can slap a war criminal in the Special Envoy position, have senators bragging about how we're going to brutalize the leader of a foreign country, have the secretary of state openly cheering the deprivation of that country's people, and openly demand the populace of said country, very literally, eat poo poo and die, and you will still have liberal interventionists lining up to say "yes, how dare that funny-talking barbarian try to stop people from gargling diarrhea. Doesn't he know how bad a look that is?" (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 13, 2019 00:53
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:in fairness, under Obama we did try, in one case, just letting a democratically elected opposition take power in spite of all that, until this excursion trump probably had a legit claim to being less imperialist than obama just because he didnt give a poo poo about maintaining the US empire
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Mar 13, 2019 01:01
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Giggle Goose posted:Well its looks like pretty clear proof of media doctoring in order to make an innocent man look guilty of a crime so that Maduro and his lot have someone to blame for the shoddy state of the power grid. I'd hope that most people would look at such a thing and perhaps, just maybe, question the statements that the regime makes a little bit instead of blindly accepting whatever Maduro's propaganda outfit puts out. I'm glad you're finally coming around to "actually, the vast majority of the information coming out of both sides is propaganda and shouldn't be trusted", just like I've been saying in here for at ages. The aid truck burning was weeks ago, do you really think "hey, propaganda exists and not everything you hear is true" is a loving surprise to anyone here?
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Mar 13, 2019 01:02
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:in fairness, under Obama we did try, in one case, just letting a democratically elected opposition take power Erm, the military sided with the protesters against Mubarak. Mubarak would've never been ousted without them. And it's a fun thought experiment to wonder how this post might look if Mubarak was a Russian proxy and the mass protests against him were able to be labeled as sympathetic to the US. Somehow I think your judgement might be that like the Venezuelans, the Egyptians just aren't ready for democracy.
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Mar 13, 2019 01:04
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Volkerball posted:It's kind of funny how tankies nowadays sit here and bitch about US hegemony and yet, are the most counter revolutionary mother fuckers you could imagine. Since Iraq, they have not seen a single revolution anywhere in the world that they've liked, yet they claim to hate the status quo. It's people like the Venezuelans in the streets who change the status quo, and yet y'all hate them for it. Nothing but a bunch of loser rear end shitposters. Revolutionaries usually aren't backed by neocons. There have been people the media at the time portrayed as revolutionaries: the contras, the shia kidnapping salafists in libya, the chechnyans in the 90s, the islamist fucks who killed my SO's family in Bamiyan. I'm not entirely sure why I should buy into these folks in Caracas besides the fact that they can pull in a reasonable crowd. I haven't seen anything reliably detailing what percentage of the country they represent, and their leader is sketchy as gently caress. For the majority of, uh, "pro-Maduro" posters, the issue isn't that Maduro is good. Maduro sucks. He sucks as a leftist, a leader, and generally as a human being. It's that letting neocons get their way with a country usually turns it into a charnel house. Alot of the people they've overthrown have been authoritarians, or generally sucked at ruling. I don't live in Venezuela. There's nothing I can do to change Venezuelas current state. No one there, not Maduro, not Guaido, not any of the people on the street give a poo poo about what anyone here supports or doesn't. But the US government does, to an extent, and vocally opposing their influence in the situation is probably the best thing anyone here can do. In a purely theoretical world though? Like if the US had a government who gave a poo poo about democracy and human rights in other countries? Sure, intervention could be a good thing. But we don't have that government now, and we never had it in the past.
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Mar 13, 2019 01:21
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Yeah I mean if Guiado was talking about the need to expropriate the oligarchs and redistribute their ill gotten gains to the common people and create a less hierarchical society I could get behind his effort to take down The Evil Dictator Maduro but he's talking privatization, satisfying US oil interests and undoing Chavismo so... no
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Mar 13, 2019 01:35
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How is that worse than what the Venezuelan people have now? Also Chavismo should absolutely be destroyed, as it's taken a prosperous country and turned it into a pauper.
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Mar 13, 2019 01:47
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