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A big flaming stink posted:Honestly this feels like the most correct take amongst the 2 threads. It's pretty loving difficult to speak truth to power when you maintain the willful blindness necessary to be a hype man for one of the biggest propagators of exploitation in the world More seriously though I always feel like this whataboutism is a repressive tool meant to form an impossibly high bar of wokeness for anyone to meet so that all criticism is essentially shamed into silence If someone is right about something, it is irrelevant if they are wrong about something else. Brie Larson not being sufficiently radical on wealth and privilege issues doesn't mean she is wrong to point out American film is androcentric. It reminds me of when people were trying to discount Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's gender and race criticism because she had previously made some comments insensitive about trans issues. Expecting anyone acting as a moral voice to be faultless serves only to slow ethical dialog. It sort of belies an interest in not engaging in the topic at hand because its deliberately trying to evoke entirely different issues. Also hi GBS dudes reading this, fight me in Satan's Backyard
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Mar 13, 2019 02:47
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Discussion of the film seems to actually only cover the marketing and box office. The film itself is vestigial.
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Mar 13, 2019 02:52
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Mel Mudkiper posted:More seriously though I always feel like this whataboutism is a repressive tool meant to form an impossibly high bar of wokeness for anyone to meet so that all criticism is essentially shamed into silence It's just kind of difficult these days now that corporate brands themselves have cottoned on to performative wokeness. Maybe Brie Larson herself is genuine and simply is speaking in an inelegant way, but to hear her talk about the importance of WoC without acknowledging her own immense privilege feels farcical at best.
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Mar 13, 2019 03:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Discussion of the film seems to actually only cover the marketing and box office. The film itself is vestigial. This is true of not just this film, but lots of films nowadays. Witness people being happy about the success of Black Panther who get irritated when people talk about the films politics and use of the CIA for example. You would think that caring about social issues would mean these portrayals would be important, but hey the film made eleventy zillion dollars, so who cares about the actual content? Captain Marvel is the same in that the content doesn't matter, only that it makes a shitload of cash with a lady leading character which will prove CHUDs wrong. gently caress CHUDS in general, but why is the success of a Disney property the frontlines of a battle against them? You can also see it in people poo poo-talking Kathleen Kennedy and saying Star Wars needs to be rescued from her and the poor performance of Solo is a just divine judgement, rather than just a movie that sucked and didn't make money. It all seems like a replacement for religion. The "good" movies need to be protected and the "bad" movies and the "bad" people who made them need to be punished, or the crops won't grow or something,. What makes something good or bad changes depending on who is judging and which tribe is theirs. The actual art in question is pretty much worthless.
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Mar 13, 2019 03:25
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A big flaming stink posted:It's just kind of difficult these days now that corporate brands themselves have cottoned on to performative wokeness. Maybe Brie Larson herself is genuine and simply is speaking in an inelegant way, but to hear her talk about the importance of WoC without acknowledging her own immense privilege feels farcical at best. i mean in one of those interview clips in the RLM review literally right after she gets asked about being a woman in film she says it's hard and then mentions that it's even harder for women of color. garycoleisgod posted:This is true of not just this film, but lots of films nowadays. at some point in the last like, decade or two, the conservatives in America realized that they were getting less and less influence over the cultural area of things, and so a lot of time is spent by those particular people alternating between attempting to make their way into that ring and attempting to mock/attack the people who have the most control. Now, especially after the Trump election where liberals/progressives realized they have less power in the political ring than they thought, it's key for the left to maintain control of the cultural realm, and so continuing with an agenda of diversity and progressiveness in media is important. So when one side wants to attack those in control and the other side wants to maintain that control, it feels more combative. The actual media companies are perfectly fine with this because when people hold up cultural power as an important thing to have, they're more willing to spend to display that they have it. So making movies like Captain Marvel and Black Panther are very lucrative.
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Mar 13, 2019 04:29
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honestly if I could ask Brie Larson one question about all of the marketing/press for this movie I wouldn't even bother asking about the feminist aspect of the film, I'd want to know if she had any concerns about the movie advertising so heavily for the US military. I suppose as an actor you have very little control over that sort of thing for a movie this big, but man if I were working on a project and it was directly being used to advertise for any branch of the military I'd at least have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. then again, we saw Woke Cap shaking hands with Rep. Dan Crenshaw (Lying Dipshit-TX) not a week ago so i don't have high hopes for that answer.
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Mar 13, 2019 04:44
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DC Murderverse posted:honestly if I could ask Brie Larson one question about all of the marketing/press for this movie I wouldn't even bother asking about the feminist aspect of the film, I'd want to know if she had any concerns about the movie advertising so heavily for the US military. I suppose as an actor you have very little control over that sort of thing for a movie this big, but man if I were working on a project and it was directly being used to advertise for any branch of the military I'd at least have a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. i didn't find CM to be a huge USAF advertisement. in fact i was surprised by how well it worked out, in the sense that the USAF was little more than the character's, and her best friend's, backstory. i mean in most movies sponsored by the military, the military tends to be portrayed in an overly positive light, or they come in to save the day, or some other poo poo like that. here, there was some air force jargon here and there, a few logos, some planes, and that was it. there was the part about CM's best friend shooting down the alien fighter jet with her comparatively low-tech plane, but that was more because the kree girl underestimated her and thought she had her in the bag, than anything else. the only part that was arguably an overt advertisement was at the end when the little girl is picking CM's suit colors, and they make it obvious that it is, oh my god, the USAF's colors! but that was quite a minor thing, i think.
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Mar 13, 2019 05:03
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enraged_camel posted:i didn't find CM to be a huge USAF advertisement. in fact i was surprised by how well it worked out, in the sense that the USAF was little more than the character's, and her best friend's, backstory. the movie itself might not be but the USAF is definitely using it directly as a marketing opportunity with full support from Disney. I've seen ads on TV featuring clips from Captain Marvel and all sorts of puff pieces about how great and cooperative the air force was and how awesome they are and all that jazz. It's the same sort of thing as Black Panther and the CIA, except in this case it's even more overt. On the other hand, I suppose I've defended worse military propaganda in the name of cinema (I do genuinely like Transformers: Dark of the Moon, which is a big slob job for The Troops), but for some reason a Michael Bay flick doing that is expected, whereas a movie that presents a bunch of refugees as sympathetic characters also putting in a positive light arguably one of the entities most responsible for refugee creation in the first place (not just the Air Force but the US military as a whole) seems a little odd
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Mar 13, 2019 05:53
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i see some people calling this movie anti-imperialist and i genuinely wonder if there's fluid leaking out of their brains.
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Mar 13, 2019 06:04
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R. Guyovich posted:i see some people calling this movie anti-imperialist and i genuinely wonder if there's fluid leaking out of their brains. It's not anti-imperialist, but it's definitely less pro-imperialism than I thought it would be, which was a nice surprise. Just saw the movie, enjoyed it. Didn't knock my socks off, but I had fun. Brie Larson was good, and I don't usually like Annette Benning, but I thought she was really good in this. Grendels Dad posted:Superman Returns actually confirms parts of this. I like Brandon Routh, but it's amazing to me that anyone thought/thinks that was a good movie, because holy poo poo it wasn't. Majorian fucked around with this message at 08:10 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 07:33
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Majorian posted:It's not anti-imperialist, but it's definitely less pro-imperialism than I thought it would be, which was a nice surprise. holy poo poo
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Mar 13, 2019 08:09
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enraged_camel posted:i didn't find CM to be a huge USAF advertisement. in fact i was surprised by how well it worked out, in the sense that the USAF was little more than the character's, and her best friend's, backstory. The main point of Bay’s films is to make things really uncomfortably blatant, so it appears Disney succeeded at making the ads entirely natural and acceptable for you. Like, the movie subverts antisemetic ‘lizard people’ imagery, but the result is that the Kree aliens serve as a substitute insidious Other to distract from issues faced by people in America.
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Mar 13, 2019 08:17
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I think the actual anti-Semitic trope that would identify the Skrulls as a stand-in for Jews is just their ability to shapeshift, reptilians with the ability to shapeshift is actually a David Icke conspiracy that postulates the world is secretly ruled by the Aryans, which tend to be white Christian aristocracy and royalty including the Queen of England.
Autism Sneaks fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 10:26
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Wow, I kinda feel like I came in at the end of a movie.
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Mar 13, 2019 13:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Discussion of the film seems to actually only cover the marketing and box office. The film itself is vestigial. People aren't reacting to the movie. They also aren't reacting to the interviews / press. They are reacting to the reactions of the reaction to the movie/press, some of which is imaginary.
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Mar 13, 2019 14:01
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Majorian posted:I don't usually like Annette Benning, but I thought she was really good in this. everyone else has already pointed out the other silliness in this post but i want to take this for a second because what????? this movie totally wasted Annette Benning, who is a wonderful actor under normal circumstances, because she wasn't actually playing a character at any point in time. Half of the time she played a physical manifestation of the central intelligence of a fascist alien army and the other half she was a fragment of the main character's memory. That role literally could have been played by anyone, and they just went for the biggest name who would say yes i want to dress like an airman for a couple days and make bank
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Mar 13, 2019 14:48
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my point: https://twitter.com/DeptofDefense/status/1104064240736964608 but it looks like no one on either side is happy with this! https://twitter.com/AidanJWAR/status/1105687771396694016 https://twitter.com/michaelpshipley/status/1105633622332067845 https://twitter.com/electrocoilz/status/1105626314562781184 https://twitter.com/JohnFMiller86/status/1105565623726292992 but honestly, I think Lexi Alexander said it best: https://twitter.com/Lexialex/status/1105834366301700096 DC Murderverse fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 15:19
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Autism Sneaks posted:I think the actual anti-Semitic trope that would identify the Skrulls as a stand-in for Jews is just their ability to shapeshift, reptilians with the ability to shapeshift is actually a David Icke conspiracy that postulates the world is secretly ruled by the Aryans, which tend to be white Christian aristocracy and royalty including the Queen of England. Icke buys into anti-Semitic conspiracy theories fully, as do many of his followers. He just happens to think that the supposed Jewish conspirators are working with the Aryans and Reptilians. (He's also not super big on consistency in any case.) Reptilian humanoids show up all the time in modern fascist circles, either symbolically representing infiltrating nefarious immigrants, as a joke/dogwhistle, or just because the particular fascist believes in evil aliens.
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Mar 13, 2019 15:22
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DC Murderverse posted:my point: every example you provided comes from a white man though which kind of also proves her point Like, even the anti-war stuff is still white dudes mansplaining that the army is bad
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Mar 13, 2019 15:22
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why did you crop out lexi alexander then say that only men were quoted
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Mar 13, 2019 15:27
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Cease to Hope posted:why did you crop out lexi alexander then say that only men were quoted i edited that one in later, he probably hit quote before i did that Mel Mudkiper posted:every example you provided comes from a white man though which kind of also proves her point oh yeah I picked the most egregious examples on both sides because just because I might agree with you in the larger end of things doesn't mean you can't be a dink on the internet
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Mar 13, 2019 15:28
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I'm sure people are going to flip out at my choice of words here, but this movie fails to characterize Captain Marvel as a badass woman who doesn't take poo poo and instead lands on her just being kind of a bitch (when she isnt blandly existing). Compare to any of the non-starring marvel female characters, or the protagonists of classic james cameron films and one new one that must not be named, and you see a distinct difference. The distinction is between a character being sympathetically defiant and unapologetic, compared to being needlessly bratty and smugly snarking.
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Mar 13, 2019 15:49
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probably not a great way to make that point, no
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Mar 13, 2019 15:53
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May not want to use a gendered insult with baggage to make your point about the female character, there's better ways of making your case.
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Mar 13, 2019 15:56
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How about: she is sour and not someone who I would like to spend time with even if we were on the same team and agreed on all matters, as opposed to being someone I desperately want to lead my team like Ripley in Alien/s. Even Tony Stark, who is specifically characterized as being kind of a dick, is made to be appealing by virtue of having witty mannerisms and internal emotional flaws he struggles with (rather than being internally perfect and only held back by external factors).
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Mar 13, 2019 15:58
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Moon Atari posted:I'm sure people are going to flip out at my choice of words here, but this movie fails to characterize Captain Marvel as a badass woman who doesn't take poo poo and instead lands on her just being kind of a bitch (when she isnt blandly existing). Compare to any of the non-starring marvel female characters, or the protagonists of classic james cameron films and one new one that must not be named, and you see a distinct difference. The distinction is between a character being sympathetically defiant and unapologetic, compared to being needlessly bratty and smugly snarking. if you knew people were going to "flip out" then why do it? are there no other synonyms that you could have used? Multiple people in this thread have criticized the way that Captain Marvel was written/portrayed already and none of them felt the need to use gendered insults also we like Alita here you don't have to act like it's some sort of weird competition between them they're both good movies, we're not dipshits
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Mar 13, 2019 15:59
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Hollywood needs to stop getting involved with the military and glorifying it. There is nothing heroic / brave about joining the military and no one does it to "defend our freedom" which is always at best an incredibly vague statement that has no real meaning behind it. I didn't even actually know Captain Marvel was this deep in with U.S. military propaganda, I for the most part tuned this film out after the first trailer.
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Mar 13, 2019 15:59
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Moon Atari posted:How about : she is sour and not someone who I would like to spend time with even if we were on the same team and agreed on all matters, as opposed to being someone I desperately want to lead my team like Ripley in Alien/s. Even Tony Stark, who is specifically characterized as being kind of a dick, is made to be appealing by virtue of having witty mannerisms and internal emotional flaws he struggles with (rather than being internally perfect and only held back by external factors). That is a much better way of phrasing it, thank you.
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Mar 13, 2019 16:00
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Moon Atari posted:How about : she is sour and not someone who I would like to spend time with even if we were on the same team and agreed on all matters, as opposed to being someone I desperately want to lead my team like Ripley in Alien/s. Even Tony Stark, who is specifically characterized as being kind of a dick, is made to be appealing by virtue of having witty mannerisms and internal emotional flaws he struggles with (rather than being internally perfect and only held back by external factors). yeah this is better, and I think it gets to the heart of why all the Marvel movies/heroes feel so samey to me: they focus too much IMO on being someone you would "like to have a beer with" than any actually interesting character traits. I think they were trying to get that with Captain Marvel but also try to do something a little different, and the two clashed to the point where the character felt muddled. (i should also note, since if we're gonna hit all of the "Bad Comic Book Movie Thread" checkpoints, that Man of Steel/BvS get this criticism a lot, especially Henry Cavill's Clark Kent, who I've seen referred to as "too dour" or "too dark" or "too sad", all of which sort of fall into that same sort of criticism) edit: i should also point out that while I'm not a big fan of it, it clearly works because the characters being so friendly and "beer-worthy" is a big part of the reason they make so much money.
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Mar 13, 2019 16:03
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I thought Carol was several degrees less abrasive than Tony (who I am also okay with). Tony’s snark always comes off as self-aggrandizing and dismissive, whereas I thought there was definitely more warmth to Carol’s teasing.
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Mar 13, 2019 16:04
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DC Murderverse posted:everyone else has already pointed out the other silliness in this post but i want to take this for a second because "Everyone else" meaning BOTL.  I liked Benning in this because I had never seen her play a villainous role before, and I think she really sold it. That was pretty cool IMO. Sorry you didn't care for it, I guess? Phylodox posted:I thought Carol was several degrees less abrasive than Tony (who I am also okay with). Tony’s snark always comes off as self-aggrandizing and dismissive, whereas I thought there was definitely more warmth to Carol’s teasing.  I didn't find anything "bitchy" about her at all, actually.
Majorian fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 16:07
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DC Murderverse posted:if you knew people were going to "flip out" then why do it? are there no other synonyms that you could have used? Multiple people in this thread have criticized the way that Captain Marvel was written/portrayed already and none of them felt the need to use gendered insults Because the term bitch is the perfect word to convey my meaning. Because I disagree with bitch being a problematic term and dont think skirting around gendered terminology has any real point, hence my use of dick to describe Tony Stark. Because I enjoy expressing myself on my own terms in defiance of what people would try to impose upon me. Because I dont feel the need to tip toe around my points for fear of being characterized as some stereotyped right wing chud, having expressed my leftwing sentiments in thousands of posts on this forum. And lastly because alita is a movie released at virtually the exact same time so it is the most readily available counterpoint when comparing two female protagonists, one of whom was well done and one of whom was not.
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Mar 13, 2019 16:08
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Sour maybe-lesbians are great to have a beer with, actually
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Mar 13, 2019 16:11
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Moon Atari posted:Because the term bitch is the perfect word to convey my meaning. Because I disagree with bitch being a problematic term and dont think skirting around gendered terminology has any real point, hence my use of dick to describe Tony Stark. Because I enjoy expressing myself on my own terms in defiance of what people would try to impose upon me. Because I dont feel the need to tip toe around my points for fear of being characterized as some stereotyped right wing chud, having expressed my leftwing sentiments in thousands of posts on this forum. ok i want you to replace "bitch" and "gendered terminology" with any racial slur and "racial terminology" and see if this post holds up. Also I'm not saying comparison to Alita is bad, I'm just saying the weird "movie that shall not be named" thing is dumb. Actually comparing the two of them is probably a worthwhile venture because Alita and Captain Marvel are both about women who have amnesia and were soliders in their past life, but where in Alita she is brought back to life by a civilian who wants her to reject her past life, in Captain Marvel Carol is brought back by another military outfit that is totally alright with her killing poo poo, and so her entire existence is defined by being a solider, before and after. also also you definitely don't need to be a right wing chud to say sexist things. There are lots and lots of left wing people who are sexist too. Sexism pervades all of our culture! Just because you support left wing politics does not make you immune to it.
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Mar 13, 2019 16:14
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I mean, that's really the only way Captain Marvel would be interesting going forward. She is a top-tier Omega powered hero who could go toe to toe with an entire armada of warships. Giving her a sort of petulant sour streak is really a pretty genius way of making every problem going forward not "call Captain Marvel" If she was a super friendly noble zero-faults hero everyone could stand behind, there would not be a single threat that could plausibly beat her (see: The Superman problem)
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Mar 13, 2019 16:21
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Majorian posted:
This too. She came off as headstrong and cocky. Moon Atari posted:Because I enjoy expressing myself on my own terms in defiance of what people would try to impose upon me. Because I dont feel the need to tip toe around my points for fear of being characterized as some stereotyped right wing chud, having expressed my leftwing sentiments in thousands of posts on this forum. Pro-Tip: People who are actually open-minded and progressive on these issues don't freak out when called out on these issues Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 16:21
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CheesyDog posted:Sour maybe-lesbians are great to have a beer with, actually I don’t know, Sour Maybe-Lesbians sounds like an awful beer flavor.
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Mar 13, 2019 16:27
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I don’t know, Sour Maybe-Lesbians sounds like an awful beer flavor. Sour beers own loser
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Mar 13, 2019 16:28
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DC Murderverse posted:ok i want you to replace "bitch" and "gendered terminology" with any racial slur and "racial terminology" and see if this post holds up. Also I'm not saying comparison to Alita is bad, I'm just saying the weird "movie that shall not be named" thing is dumb. Actually comparing the two of them is probably a worthwhile venture because Alita and Captain Marvel are both about women who have amnesia and were soliders in their past life, but where in Alita she is brought back to life by a civilian who wants her to reject her past life, in Captain Marvel Carol is brought back by another military outfit that is totally alright with her killing poo poo, and so her entire existence is defined by being a solider, before and after. Bitch and gendered slurs are not equivalent to racial slurs. If you actually felt they were rather than simply needing to insist upon half baked elite manners that almost no one in the real world follows than you wouldn't have felt comfortable saying bitch even in quoting me, and would have instead said 'b word'. Unlike a racial slur, bitch does not denigrate on account of the target's demographic, but rather targets their behaviour and character with variants for their gender. Bitch and dick are equivalent to obnoxious woman and obnoxious man. In the same way we are not at some weird level of gender erasure where we cannot say woman or man, she or him, actress or actor, so too should we not feel compelled to let go of bitch and dick. Maybe some half remembered blog post made a good case for it once upon a time. But not well enough to actually penetrate into broader society, and now I'm committed to piss blasting its skidmark off the toilet of social media with the force of my unapologetic posting.
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Mar 13, 2019 16:28
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Moon Atari posted:Bitch and gendered slurs are not equivalent to racial slurs. If you actually felt they were rather than simply needing to insist upon half baked elite manners that almost no one in the real world follows than you wouldn't have felt comfortable saying bitch even in quoting me, and would have instead said 'b word'. Unlike a racial slur, bitch does not denigrate on account of the target's demographic, but rather targets their behaviour and character with variants for their gender. Bitch and dick are equivalent to obnoxious woman and obnoxious man. In the same way we are not at some weird level of gender erasure where we cannot say woman or man, she or him, actress or actor, so too should we not feel compelled to let go of bitch and dick. Maybe some half remembered blog post made a good case for it once upon a time. But not well enough to actually penetrate into broader society, and now I'm committed to piss blasting its skidmark off the toilet of social media with the force of my unapologetic posting. u mad (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 13, 2019 16:31
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