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I was going to defer to the FAA before remembering this is Trump's FAA.
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Mar 13, 2019 07:18
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Gibfender posted:Feel like this video demonstrates the very essence of this threads current title. I can't believe one crew can make so many fuckups in such a short time. Wow, that’s fascinating. Got any other links to “holy poo poo how can this crew be that dumb” animations? I’m probably going to just watch these at work instead of doing anything useful.
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Mar 13, 2019 07:37
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RandomPauI posted:I was going to defer to the FAA before remembering this is Trump's FAA.
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Mar 13, 2019 07:43
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Luigi Thirty posted:Wow, that’s fascinating. Got any other links to “holy poo poo how can this crew be that dumb” animations? So there's another one from the NTSB that fits that exact criteria: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GokKYNOcp20 Or else there's a series of case studies from the Air Safety Institute looking at various GA incidents https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCC59953860B62145
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Mar 13, 2019 07:49
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Feature new to the 737 MAX: - Automatic knolling
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Mar 13, 2019 12:20
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The human condition, post event report posted:
There has to be a lot of pilots like that on private jets, that barely make it alive every day. And private flying is becoming more prevalent and more people want to do it on a first/business class budget. Probably safer to go by Max 8.
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Mar 13, 2019 13:09
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India just grounded all MAX 8 flights in their airspace: https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/all-boeing-737-max-8-aircraft-in-india-will-be-grounded-by-4-pm-today-says-dgca-official-2006734
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Mar 13, 2019 13:20
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Canada too, just now. Edit: Garneau is citing new information received this morning, and similarities to the flight profile of the Lion Air crash for the decision. Fornax Disaster fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 16:55
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How uncommon is it for a country to send a Boeing black-box to Europe for analysis?
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Mar 13, 2019 17:00
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https://twitter.com/BreakingNews/status/1105861598835544064?s=19 The country with a Boeing Executive as Secretary of Defense is the holdout. Odd! 
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Mar 13, 2019 17:07
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https://twitter.com/chrisgascoigne/status/1105747631664320512 what
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Mar 13, 2019 17:08
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What percentage of airliners have AoA indicators?
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Mar 13, 2019 17:16
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Relieved I won’t have to choose between rebooking with fees and flying on a max 8, although probably will anyway since it’s in May and I expect they’ll have a fix by then. Still be a bit white knuckle-y.
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Mar 13, 2019 17:21
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FAA now standing alone fits in with my pessimistic prediction earlier. The normal, rational, science based, safety first attitude of the flying business goes out the window if something is too big to fail.
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Mar 13, 2019 17:28
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priznat posted:Relieved I won’t have to choose between rebooking with fees and flying on a max 8, although probably will anyway since it’s in May and I expect they’ll have a fix by then. They crash within the first ~10 minutes, so you’re good for the rest of the flight, inshallah 
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Mar 13, 2019 17:28
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Sperglord posted:How uncommon is it for a country to send a Boeing black-box to Europe for analysis? That's normal. edit: The data recorders are usually made by Raytheon or somebody. Doesn't really matter that it's Boeing.
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Mar 13, 2019 17:28
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Just watched the Canada ban press conference. It is kind of cool having an actual astronaut as transport minister sometimes.
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Mar 13, 2019 17:31
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Tim Whatley posted:https://twitter.com/BreakingNews/status/1105861598835544064?s=19 Lots of high level meetings yesterday, probably the decision was made then, but they wanted to give the operators a chance to get their airplanes back to somewhere useful, instead of standing them in Hawaii or whatever.
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Mar 13, 2019 17:32
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hobbesmaster posted:What percentage of airliners have AoA indicators? 100% it’s part of the stick shaker/pusher system
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Mar 13, 2019 17:33
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e.pilot posted:100% it’s part of the stick shaker/pusher system They have the sensor but is there a cockpit indicator? An AoA indicator is the "optional equipment" that was referred to in that post.
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Mar 13, 2019 17:36
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e.pilot posted:100% it’s part of the stick shaker/pusher system Careful though, there's no actual indicator to say what your AOA is. I've had this argument a lot with one of my colleagues. He's always asking why isn't there one. I think there's a customer option to display it on the 737 EFIS, but I'm not really familiar with that a/c.
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Mar 13, 2019 17:39
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How the hell is there not an AoA indicator as part of standard cockpit instrumentation?
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Mar 13, 2019 17:44
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holocaust bloopers posted:How the hell is there not an AoA indicator as part of standard cockpit instrumentation? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y73tnUn6ETY&t=59s
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Mar 13, 2019 17:47
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Sperglord posted:How uncommon is it for a country to send a Boeing black-box to Europe for analysis? There are a lot of complicated rules for what countries have authority to do accident investigations, but both BEA in France and AAIB in the UK have good quality investigations like the NTSB.
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Mar 13, 2019 17:49
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holocaust bloopers posted:How the hell is there not an AoA indicator as part of standard cockpit instrumentation? If you're flying into the ground at 400kts, what do you think your AOA is going to be?
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Mar 13, 2019 17:50
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holocaust bloopers posted:How the hell is there not an AoA indicator as part of standard cockpit instrumentation? Because you’re never flying on a thin enough margin to a stall to warrant one, and on the off chance you do, you’ve got the shaker/pusher system. On EFIS equipped aircraft there are other tools as well, such as the pitch limit indicator (the yellow eyebrows above the 10s) and a dynamic low speed marking (the low speed red barber pole) on the speed tape, they take AoA into account when it matters and display as needed.  I have flown turbo props that have an AoA gauge and you literally never look at it, because it’s not telling you anything useful in any normal flight regime, it’s just unnecessary clutter on the panel.
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Mar 13, 2019 18:31
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e.pilot posted:Because you’re never flying on a thin enough margin to a stall to warrant one, and on the off chance you do, you’ve got the shaker/pusher system. Interesting! Yea, guess I'm just stuck on what I saw with the E-3.
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Mar 13, 2019 18:42
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e.pilot posted:Because you’re never flying on a thin enough margin to a stall to warrant one, and on the off chance you do, you’ve got the shaker/pusher system. One of the AoA sensors on the Lion Air crash was stuck reading 20 degrees high, from the preliminary report... quote:At 2320 UTC, (0620 on 29 October 2018 LT), the aircraft departed from Jakarta with If I was a 737 max pilot right now I'd really want to know if one of my AoA sensors was stuck reading 20 degrees sometime before V1. Preferably sometime before pushback... http://knkt.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_aviation/baru/pre/2018/2018%20-%20035%20-%20PK-LQP%20Preliminary%20Report.pdf (page 9)
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Mar 13, 2019 18:54
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If it turns out this whole thing was an overreaction to Airbuses going into alternate law after sensor failures, and the general feeling that was no good because pilots didn't realize what was going on, it's not going to look good. Presumably the reason two AoA sensors are installed is that they have to be redundant in case one of them fails -- therefore, it follows logically that the aircraft must be engineered to behave in a controllable and predictable fashion in the event of such a failure, preferably without a series of complicated steps that could be difficult to accomplish if the plane is trying to push itself nose-down into the loving ground. A failure of a single redundant sensor should not be able to cause a crash, full stop. Having AoA readout in the cockpit that has to be checked during the takeoff roll seems like an inelegant solution to that problem.
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Mar 13, 2019 19:13
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I feel like there's probably an automated test that could be done by looking at the AoA when the airplane is rolling but still has weight on the nose gear and ensuring that it's within spec. Then again, the middle of the takeoff roll is probably the worst possible time to be checking for hardware failures
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Mar 13, 2019 19:23
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hobbesmaster posted:One of the AoA sensors on the Lion Air crash was stuck reading 20 degrees high, from the preliminary report... You'd get a flag on your PFD for a disagree. You won't get it during taxi, because you need enough airspeed to push them straight if they're wonky. Normally a busted AOA isn't going to interfere with you being able to fly the plane. On the max though, maybe it is? In which case a more attention-getting alert doesn't address the fundamental flaw in the system, which is that a busted AOA shouldn't cause the plane to crash if the pilots don't take extraordinary action.
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Mar 13, 2019 19:29
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PT6A posted:Having AoA readout in the cockpit that has to be checked during the takeoff roll seems like an inelegant solution to that problem. It also wouldn't catch all failure modes. What if the sensor was stuck at 0 instead. Isn't the real issue the fact that the official Boeing procedure for the problem is too time consuming to troubleshoot and implement in anything other than level flight with ample altitude and that it hasn't been a problem until now because the pilots were able to override the system with control inputs which no longer works on the MAX? What's the danger of going back to the old behavior with the MAX? Has Boeing said why they have changed this behavior?
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Mar 13, 2019 19:30
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Sagebrush posted:I feel like there's probably an automated test that could be done by looking at the AoA when the airplane is rolling but still has weight on the nose gear and ensuring that it's within spec. Yeah, pretty much. Anything that isn't absolutely critical for the pilot to know about is usually inhibited during takeoff until they get airborne. That's pretty universal across all aircraft. A broken AOA sensor is one of those things.
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Mar 13, 2019 19:32
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Finger Prince posted:You'd get a flag on your PFD for a disagree. You won't get it during taxi, because you need enough airspeed to push them straight if they're wonky. Normally a busted AOA isn't going to interfere with you being able to fly the plane. On the max though, maybe it is? In which case a more attention-getting alert doesn't address the fundamental flaw in the system, which is that a busted AOA shouldn't cause the plane to crash if the pilots don't take extraordinary action. I mean something clearly went horrifically wrong on the Lion air aircraft so maybe that is what was intended. quote:At 23:31:09 UTC, the LNI610 PIC advised the ARR controller that the altitude of the
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Mar 13, 2019 19:33
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Shoudn't there be an AOA DISAGREE message in the EICAS? ALSO: The 737 NG and MAX both have a customer option AOA gauge that displays at the top right of the EADI on the PFD. It looks just like the one in e.pilot's picture.
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Mar 13, 2019 19:38
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I guess we were starting to look bad https://twitter.com/kaitlancollins/status/1105899004154515456
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Mar 13, 2019 19:40
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https://twitter.com/AliVelshi/status/1105898870356217858 US grounded
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Mar 13, 2019 19:40
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0toShifty posted:Shoudn't there be an AOA DISAGREE message in the EICAS? Maybe the DFDR didn't have that information on the Lion air accident flight? This is what was reported on the aircraft's previous flight: quote:The DFDR showed the stick shaker activated during the rotation and remained Somehow the repairs made the problem worse because instead of getting a light at 400 ft the stick shaker activated the instant they rotated and they fought it the entire accident flight. edit: Thankfully the max appears to be grounded worldwide now so maybe Boeing will be forced to send out a real fix instead of enabling AoA indicators or some other kludge. hobbesmaster fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Mar 13, 2019 |
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Mar 13, 2019 19:41
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PT6A posted:Presumably the reason two AoA sensors are installed is that they have to be redundant in case one of them fails Two lets one detect the failure but not tolerate it, though. One could disable things like MCAS when that happens, but that seems like trouble in case you actually need that system. (Three sensors lets one tolerate one failing, and seems like it would have been a saner choice)
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Mar 13, 2019 19:44
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FBS posted:I guess we were starting to look bad Yeah, when the FAA says a-ok but Trump steps in as the voice of reason in favor of caution... That led to another drop in the share price, perhaps Trump Jr put a short in.
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Mar 13, 2019 19:47
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