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Granted, one could argue that the push in the US towards fracking probably did cost a lot of money, just it isn't the same thing as sanctions.
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Mar 14, 2019 16:29
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“The great bulk of Marshall Plan funds returned to the United States, or never left, being paid directly to American corporations to purchase American goods. The US Agency for International Development (AID) stated in 1999: ‘The principal beneficiary of America’s foreign assistance programs has always been the United States.” ― William Blum, America's Deadliest Export “In a visit to San Salvador in February 1989, Vice President Dan Quayle told army leaders that death squad killings and other human rights violations attributed to the military had to be ended. Ten days later, the US-trained Atlacatl Battalion—which was believed to have a US trainer assigned to it at all times—attacked a guerrilla field hospital, killing at least ten people, including five patients, a doctor and a nurse, and raping at least two of the female victims before shooting them.” ― William Blum, Killing Hope: U.S. and C.I.A. Interventions Since World War II--Updated Through 2003 “The United States is not actually against terrorism per se, only those terrorists who are not allies of the empire. There is a lengthy and infamous history of Washington’s support for numerous anti-Castro terrorists, even when their terrorist acts were committed in the United States. At this moment, Luis Posada Carriles remains protected by the US government, though he masterminded the blowing up of a Cuban airplane that killed 73 people. He’s but one of hundreds of anti-Castro terrorists who’ve been given haven in the United States over the years. The United States has also provided close support to terrorists, or fought on the same side as Islamic jihadists, in Kosovo, Bosnia, Iran, Libya, and Syria, including those with known connections to al-Qaeda, to further foreign policy goals more important than fighting terrorism.” ― William Blum, America's Deadliest Export
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Mar 14, 2019 16:36
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I'm surprised there are people in here still trying to say "but are the US sanctions really having any effect?" when even the US leadership isn't pretending that US sanctions aren't starving venezuelans on purpose
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Mar 14, 2019 17:08
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Presenting Nipples posted:No it’s not. This is actually worse evidence for your claim than citing a Maduro speech. Again, we've already discussed this source and article in detail. It doesn't say what you're pretending it says. But then again, your whole goal was to shift the topic off of the refusal to admit aid in the first place.
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Mar 14, 2019 17:11
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I've seen this floating around the feeds of my tankie friends and I can't believe this is what they're going with.
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Mar 14, 2019 17:29
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Bullfrog posted:I've seen this floating around the feeds of my tankie friends and I can't believe this is what they're going with. "Marco Rubio tweeted three minutes after the power outage!" ..err...mind telling me what did he tweet exactly and why it was relevant?
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Mar 14, 2019 17:41
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I just left a hipster tankie feed and I can't believe this is what they're going with. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 14, 2019 17:49
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punk rebel ecks posted:"Marco Rubio tweeted three minutes after the power outage!" ..err...mind telling me what did he tweet exactly and why it was relevant? He tweeted: "ALERT: Reports of a complete power outage all across #Venezuela at this moment. 18 of 23 states & the capital district are currently facing complete blackouts. Main airport also without power & backup generators have failed." That’s it and obviously was posted more than three Minutes after the outage started but twitter doesn’t give exact tweet times when looking through history (or I just can’t find it?). If there was anything else, which I doubt, he deleted it. His other posts earlier that day were totally unrelated to the power outage, but I’m sure a real leftist has found the the hidden message that he used to activate his Manchurian candidates. There’s also: "My apologies to people of Venezuela. I must have pressed the wrong thing on the “electronic attack” app I downloaded from Apple. My bad" That’s a direct Marco Rubio tweet
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Mar 14, 2019 17:49
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Bullfrog posted:I've seen this floating around the feeds of my tankie friends and I can't believe this is what they're going with. This is the least convincing infographic imaginable
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Mar 14, 2019 17:52
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That's a suspiciously large Guayana Esequiba.
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Mar 14, 2019 17:52
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bloom posted:I just left a hipster tankie feed and I can't believe this is what they're going with. wow thanks for that hot update
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Mar 14, 2019 17:55
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Saladman posted:"My apologies to people of Venezuela. I must have pressed the wrong thing on the “electronic attack” app I downloaded from Apple. My bad" He's a loving idiot for joking about poo poo like that. It's not quite as bad as the Qaddafi tweet which wasn't a joke, but it's still a gift to the regime.
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Mar 14, 2019 17:57
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Condiv posted:I'm surprised there are people in here still trying to say "but are the US sanctions really having any effect?" when even the US leadership isn't pretending that US sanctions aren't starving venezuelans on purpose Is that the quote you apparently misunderstood, or do you have a better cite than before on this?
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Mar 14, 2019 17:59
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Bullfrog posted:I've seen this floating around the feeds of my tankie friends and I can't believe this is what they're going with. I was at first surprised the government refused to implicate the sanctions in the power outages. However on second thought I think it fits in a consistent pattern we've seen in which the government consistently downplays the roles of shortages in the economic situation. Even if US sanctions and chicanery regarding Venezuela's refined petroleum imports did play a role in the power outage, the government doesn't want to admit it. It's never that the government is short on cash, its always sabotage. I'm not sure its the best strategy in the current moment, but it may just be the legacy of the longer term effort to downplay the impact of shortages.
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Mar 14, 2019 18:09
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What would be the mechanism of action for an "electromagnetic attack" on an energy delivery system?Sinteres posted:He's a loving idiot for joking about poo poo like that. It's not quite as bad as the Qaddafi tweet which wasn't a joke, but it's still a gift to the regime. The problem folks are having with Rubio and Pompeo's statements is their target audience isn't Venezuela or Venezuelans; it's Florida and Floridians.
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Mar 14, 2019 18:09
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Discendo Vox posted:What would be the mechanism of action for an "electromagnetic attack" on an energy delivery system? i think the problem folks are having with them is that it's America openly revelling in the suffering of Venezuelans while promising more suffering to come, OP.
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Mar 14, 2019 18:13
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Discendo Vox posted:The problem folks are having with Rubio and Pompeo's statements is their target audience isn't Venezuela or Venezuelans; it's Florida and Floridians. Don't the Real Venezuelans live in Florida?
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Mar 14, 2019 18:55
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Don't the Real Venezuelans live in Florida? What are you trying to imply here?
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Mar 14, 2019 19:01
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Pharohman777 posted:What are you trying to imply here? that corpse-eating monsters like Rubio and Pompeo have no reason to give a poo poo about Venezuelans in Venezuela, but a great deal of reason to treat the ones in Florida as the only ones who matter. this engenders such charming statements as the Secretary of State doing a happy dance over the knowledge that all those fuckers in Venezuela are without food and power, and the senior senator from Florida proclaiming the death of its leader by bayonet sodomy the current goal of US foreign policy. there have been some REAL stinkers of decisions that have come out of the knowledge that the only real Latin Americans live in Florida, let me tell you.
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Mar 14, 2019 19:09
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Discendo Vox posted:What would be the mechanism of action for an "electromagnetic attack" on an energy delivery system? Pretty sure Maduro just watched the Batman movie with the EMP bomb.
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Mar 14, 2019 19:19
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If the economic impact of sanctions on the oil production caused 6 billion is losses and hyperinflation was also quite clearly precipitated by the drop in oil production, then 20 billion is an underestimate. To say nothing of the billions in stolen revenue, inability to debt finance, rejection of medical payments and general impact of ostracizing Venezuela from the global economy. The notion Venezuela should accept 20 million in ‘aid’ from the country which has caused billions of dollars of damage is absurd. It is admitted this aid is meant to further destabilize PR. The US wouldn’t accept aid for Puerto Rico and I can tell you first hand that rural parts definitely need it, particularly Vieques. The US does not have the moral high ground in this conflict.
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Mar 14, 2019 19:22
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Maybe Chavez/Maduro should have made better friends when they were doing well instead of throwing shade on 'imperialists'. What did they expect would happen?
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Mar 14, 2019 19:53
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dublish posted:That's a suspiciously large Guayana Esequiba. bich that's the whole fuckin guyana 
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Mar 14, 2019 19:58
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Shaocaholica posted:Maybe Chavez/Maduro should have made better friends when they were doing well instead of throwing shade on 'imperialists'. What did they expect would happen? You don’t get to practice or espouse far-left politics in the Monroe zone and still be “friends” with the United States. My apologies if this isn’t what you were suggesting.
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Mar 14, 2019 20:05
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Some of these are pretty lol in hindsight. https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez
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Mar 14, 2019 20:18
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Presenting Nipples posted:If the economic impact of sanctions on the oil production caused 6 billion is losses and hyperinflation was also quite clearly precipitated by the drop in oil production, then 20 billion is an underestimate. https://fas.org/sgp/crs/row/IF10715.pdf The 2015 Obama-era sanctions were against specific individuals; asset blocking and visa restrictions.  Trump's sanctions were in 2018, with sanctions on Sanctions on PdVSA on Jan 28 2019. Oil output started to nosedive in October 2017. The fall in oil production is the result of chronic mismanagement and under-investment. Venezuela has dutch disease, exacerbated by hamfisted price controls that have destroyed domestic production of things like food. https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...m=.8498bfb515e5 Article is by Mariana Zuñiga, (https://www.frontlinefreelance.org/member/marazuniga if you want her info). The military in Venezuela is basically a very large armed gang, and Maduro bought them by giving them a stake in PdVSA and letting them run gold-mining labor camps and engage in drug smuggling. To address your moral argument, the US has no moral obligation to buy Venezuelan oil. The US has no moral obligation to let the PdVSA debt finance via US financial markets. The sanctions are on US companies; China and Russia are free to buy the oil at any price they want, or make loans to Venezuela, which they have, they just don't really care about Venezuela and have been fleecing it for below-market price barrels of oil in exchange for loans. US military involvement in Venezuela is bad, but trying to re-write reality to blame the US as maliciously causing the price of price of oil to fall, or sabotaging Venezuelan domestic production, is asinine. The Maduro regime was busy screwing oil production in order to buy the loyalty of the military since before Trump became President. edit: Basically everyone repeating the STARVATION SANCTIONS line is falling for outright propaganda, the same type Russia uses against the Maginsky Act; the Obama-era sanctions targeted specific individuals and simply made it harder for them to loot the country as quickly as they were looting it, and should be applauded - no one in this thread was rushing in here to complain about the sanctions as destroying Venezuela and no one thought they were, unless they were deluded. The huge falls in domestic production of food, medicine, and oil, all started before Trump's 2018 or 2019 sanctions. Laphroaig fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Mar 14, 2019 |
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Mar 14, 2019 20:42
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I'm going to quote batman here. If there's a 1% chance of something you have to take it as an absolute certainty.
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Mar 14, 2019 21:04
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https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1106284788082790402?s=19
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Mar 14, 2019 21:19
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https://venezuelablog.org/crude-realities-understanding-venezuelas-economic-collapse/ Both hyperinflation starts and oil production falls off a cliff immediately after sanctions go into place. There are diplomatic cables where the US is bragging about the sanctions crippling the economy. It seems reasonable to believe that without sanctions oil production would have stabilized similar to Colombia and hyperinflation would have been lessened due to improved exports.
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Mar 14, 2019 21:32
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Managing to out-graft ROSNEFT is pretty loving impressive.
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Mar 14, 2019 21:35
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This article is lol but tl;dr PDVSA was stealing hundreds of millions from Rosneft and this probably explains why Russia has so little patience with Maduro right now. quote:Rosneft managers ordered the company’s own auditors to investigate money flows between PDVSA and the Petromonagas, Petroperija and Boqueron joint ventures, internal documents relating to the audit show. The audit concluded that PDVSA had understated earnings from Petromonagas oil sales by some $700 million. PDVSA challenged this figure, another document shows, and it was revised to $500 million. There were all kinds of financial diversions meanwhile PDVSA failed to supply Russian drilling operations with promised equipment workers and failed to meet production goals. It's really staggering how badly managed this all was, given the importance of a friendly Russian government to Venezuela. edit: Presenting Nipples posted:https://venezuelablog.org/crude-realities-understanding-venezuelas-economic-collapse/ mhm don't think I agree. Without the 2018 sanctions Venezuelan production would probably continue to decrease, just at a slower rate. Sanctions have definitely accelerated the decline but they didn't cause the issues that hampered their joint operations with Rosneft. Squalid fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Mar 14, 2019 |
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Mar 14, 2019 21:37
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Squalid posted:This article is lol but tl;dr PDVSA was stealing hundreds of millions from Rosneft and this probably explains why Russia has so little patience with Maduro right now. It truly is astounding just how audaciously corrupt the Venezuelan state is.
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Mar 14, 2019 21:42
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Very detailed reporting. One of the few things that can be laughed about in this crisis is how badly Sechin, and by extension Putin, have been taken to the cleaners (or car wash, if you prefer) by these assholes. also, lmao: quote:Sechin often asks to see messages to Maduro before they are sent and adds the phrase: “Viva la Revolucion!” a former Rosneft employee said.
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Mar 14, 2019 21:50
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CNN has been very far from pro-Maduro but they're claiming to have a source on the attack on Maduro https://twitter.com/elopezgross/status/1106317981154451464
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Mar 14, 2019 23:31
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quote:The attack organizer told CNN that Colombia was not involved. He said that the drone attack was orchestrated by a group including defectors from the Venezuelan military, with the aim to assassinate Maduro.
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Mar 14, 2019 23:42
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Andrew__Roth/status/1106178887174766594
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Mar 15, 2019 00:09
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This quote is highly consistent with all the other reports we've had of US involvement with militant opposition groups and conspiracies. The US wants to have contact with the plotters, but thus far has refused to assist or contribute in anyway. See for example the case from a year ago when officers plotting a military coup met invited a US official to one of their meetings hoping for approval, but the official demurred on everything saying he was not authorized to do more than listen. Now I believe the US would offer explicit support, promises, money, intelligence for a officers who were to attempt a coup. We still don't have any evidence of US support for wannabe insurgents though. little bit slow on this one eh Volkerball
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Mar 15, 2019 00:46
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I'm curious if droneguys were the same set of military defectors as the other groups.
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Mar 15, 2019 00:57
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Squalid posted:This quote is highly consistent with all the other reports we've had of US involvement with militant opposition groups and conspiracies. The US wants to have contact with the plotters, but thus far has refused to assist or contribute in anyway. See for example the case from a year ago when officers plotting a military coup met invited a US official to one of their meetings hoping for approval, but the official demurred on everything saying he was not authorized to do more than listen. I'm slipping in my old age!
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Mar 15, 2019 00:59
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sexpig by night posted:CNN has been very far from pro-Maduro but they're claiming to have a source on the attack on Maduro drat. If only it worked
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Mar 15, 2019 01:19
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