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Basebf555 posted:This discussion is exactly why Scott's prequels were so great. They absolutely did not feel like soulless rehashes of the original(with the exception of like 10 minutes of Covenant), which is always a big risk with a series like Alien. They also didn’t feel like “Alien movies”, and chaining them to the Alien franchise did neither party any favors. Like, a horror story about humanity discovering their creators and it going horribly wrong, dovetailing into one of humanity’s creations rebelling and ultimately becoming a creator in his own right has legit potential for crazy, interesting, and scary visuals and ideas. But none of that requires the inclusion of the Alien, and doing so brings a ton of baggage and expectations that are going to cloud the movie’s message, the audience’s reception, or both. Prometheus and Covenant ended up being received by the general public as “middling to bad Alien movies” when they could have been “legit interesting and original sci-fi movies”, in an age where everything is a sequel/spin-off of something else and actual original ideas are few and far between. I don’t just say that as a fanboy who didn’t like what the prequels did to the Alien movies, I legit think we could have gotten some crazy poo poo if they’d let Ridley Scott off the leash and let him do original things and go in any direction he wanted to.
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Mar 14, 2019 20:18
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Basebf555 posted:This discussion is exactly why Scott's prequels were so great. They absolutely did not feel like soulless rehashes of the original(with the exception of like 10 minutes of Covenant), which is always a big risk with a series like Alien. Ehh... I would argue like many prequels, including the most maligned Prequels, they cheapen the overall mythology by over-explanation of things that are best left for the audience to fill in. Knowing that the titular aliens were the science project a disgruntled android (however expertly portrayed by a talented actor) hollows the story taken as a whole out almost entirely for me. I'm actually pretty much in the opposite camp on the two prequels from audience reception: I thought Prometheus was fine. Flawed, but not as bad as some of the most negative takes made it out to be. Covenant though was borderline trash, especially the speed run of Alien that got shoehorned into the last 20 minutes. The brightest point in the whole dismal affair was Fassbender making the most of the material he was given. E: also basically what Xenomorph said. 
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Mar 14, 2019 20:19
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Gnome de plume posted:Isn't there though? Ok, if we could get 6 shorts that are episodes of Predator and Alien, the Odd Couple, I would be on board. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrqSCn0sBPw
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Mar 14, 2019 20:40
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SimonCat posted:Ok, if we could get 6 shorts that are episodes of Predator and Alien, the Odd Couple, I would be on board. There's an ancient webcomic called Alien Loves Predator about a xeno and a Predator as roommates who have kind of a Homer/Flanders thing going on. I remember it being funny, but it's probably aged like milk.
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Mar 14, 2019 21:59
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LORD OF BOOTY posted:There's an ancient webcomic called Alien Loves Predator about a xeno and a Predator as roommates who have kind of a Homer/Flanders thing going on. I remember it being funny, but it's probably aged like milk. There are certain ones that still crack me up. 
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Mar 14, 2019 23:21
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How was Alien: Dead Orbit by Stokoe?
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Mar 15, 2019 00:34
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SimonCat posted:There isn't really anything exciting you can do with the Alien that hasn't been done before. I don't think that's true at all.
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Mar 15, 2019 02:24
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ChickenHeart posted:Quit yer grinnin' and drop your linen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8C8OPS3avo Eh, if they're just free on YouTube gently caress it, I'm game.
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Mar 15, 2019 02:31
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They're fan films. Fox held a contest a while back and a bunch of people put fan films up, and Fox picked a few of them to make into a little short. I hope it works because they'll do more. Hopefully they'll be interesting.
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Mar 15, 2019 02:37
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Open Marriage Night posted:How was Alien: Dead Orbit by Stokoe? There were some bonus sketches included of an earlier concept of the story where a marine team is on some giant disintegrating industrial installation that honestly looked more compelling.
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Mar 15, 2019 03:15
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https://twitter.com/spaceshipsporn/status/1081683154707062784?s=19
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Mar 15, 2019 10:40
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BiggerBoat posted:I don't think that's true at all. As your username suggests, there wasn't any need to make another killer shark movie after Jaws. The alien has the same problems as sharks do, they have a limited range of threats and any movies after the original are just variations on that theme. They jump out from the shadows, the burn you with their blood, the impregnate you with the face huggers, and they burst through your chest. You're just waiting around for the inevitable to happen.
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Mar 15, 2019 15:30
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SimonCat posted:As your username suggests, there wasn't any need to make another killer shark movie after Jaws. The alien has the same problems as sharks do, they have a limited range of threats and any movies after the original are just variations on that theme. They jump out from the shadows, the burn you with their blood, the impregnate you with the face huggers, and they burst through your chest. You're just waiting around for the inevitable to happen. Yea I agree that as a monster, the xeno is fairly limited and really wasn't designed to sustain 7+ films. It's not the same thing as other monsters that have some personality, like a Dracula or Frankenstein's monster, or Freddy Krueger. You really need other stuff surrounding the xeno to keep things fresh and interesting.
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Mar 15, 2019 15:39
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Maybe like a rogue android that wants to rid the universe (rightfully) of human life.
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Mar 15, 2019 16:06
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Invalid Validation posted:Maybe like a rogue android that wants to rid the universe (rightfully) of human life. Yea sounds like a pretty solid idea, you should write a script.
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Mar 15, 2019 16:09
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Two stories about the Nostromo model: the first is that it was originally painted excavator-yellow, but after all the VFX shots had been filmed, Scott decided he didn't like the colour, so it was painted grey and everything had to be reshot. And then, Scott threw a fit about some orange registration markings on its side, which had to be removed so the shots could be done again. The second is that for the landing sequence, the Nostromo originally had a lot more lights in different colours and patterns on its underside, which during the landing sequence were all that was visible as it descended through the clouds. It looked beautiful. But as Scott watched it being filmed, a stagehand jokingly piped up that it looked like Blackpool illuminations. Scott's immediate response: "Scrap it." Ridley might get the results on screen, but sounds like a hell of a frustrating person to work for.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:08
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I’m fed up of this Jonesy erasure. 
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Mar 15, 2019 17:11
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Payndz posted:Two stories about the Nostromo model: the first is that it was originally painted excavator-yellow, but after all the VFX shots had been filmed, Scott decided he didn't like the colour, so it was painted grey and everything had to be reshot. And then, Scott threw a fit about some orange registration markings on its side, which had to be removed so the shots could be done again. 
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Mar 15, 2019 17:51
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I feel like if you really wanted alien-as-monster to work you'd need to really lean into the stuff Scott and Cameron were implying about the aliens actually being much more intelligent than people thought and have a xenomorph that is actively thinking and reacting intelligently to the protagonists.
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Mar 15, 2019 23:11
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Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:I feel like if you really wanted alien-as-monster to work you'd need to really lean into the stuff Scott and Cameron were implying about the aliens actually being much more intelligent than people thought and have a xenomorph that is actively thinking and reacting intelligently to the protagonists. I always figured that was the case, at least across the first, second, and fourth movies where you have the Aliens making active decisions that make the characters say things like “what do you mean they cut the power, they’re animals!”
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Mar 15, 2019 23:40
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Xenomrph posted:I always figured that was the case, at least across the first, second, and fourth movies where you have the Aliens making active decisions that make the characters say things like “what do you mean they cut the power, they’re animals!” Its absolutely there, and was a big reason why Cameron cut the robogun scene, because it implied the aliens were just dumb hive animals using wave attacks and he decided it worked better to imply they found another way around them.
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Mar 15, 2019 23:57
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I like the Sentry Gun scene because it actually shows their intelligence; they try brute forcing their way through a blockade and their deaths mean nothing because there's so many of them and it's a very soldier mentality to die for the cause. Then, they retreat because they figure the war of attrition isn't worth it and work out another way to get to everyone. That poo poo is terrifying, it's also tense watching the guns eat through their ammo and then... silence. The scene is too long though.
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Mar 16, 2019 03:02
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s.i.r.e. posted:I like the Sentry Gun scene because it actually shows their intelligence; they try brute forcing their way through a blockade and their deaths mean nothing because there's so many of them and it's a very soldier mentality to die for the cause. Then, they retreat because they figure the war of attrition isn't worth it and work out another way to get to everyone. That poo poo is terrifying, it's also tense watching the guns eat through their ammo and then... silence. The scene is too long though. Yeah I like it a lot too but it would be an improvement if it was shorter and maybe if the guns were over half full when they stopped instead of almost depleted. It's a tightrope because Scott and Cameron both wanted the alien to still be alien in terms of how understandable it is. Cameron talks about that a bit how they wanted them to see intelligent while not being too humanized.
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Mar 16, 2019 04:09
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I like the sentry scenes too. Actually showing them figuring things out works a lot better than just having the aliens disappear for 40minutes with no attempt to get in whatsoever. The sentry gun scenes are actually split up into 2 parts with the first being them just zerg rushing the guns till the ammo runs out and they start beating on the door then....nothing. It just goes to the next scene like "ok." The second part is a bit later where they stop and retreat with the guns at about 10% ammo. The best of both worlds be to keep the setup of the guns and the 2nd part where they stop their advance. The only issue is they keep showing the same shot of an alien exploding that they used previously during the reactor escape scene so it just looks super lazy.
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Mar 16, 2019 04:14
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Something I like about the first Alien is that there's no context given to imply that the xenomorph is an animalistic entity. It is simply a capital-A Alien where we don't know what the extent of its intelligence is. To be honest I kind of don't like Cameron's anthill take in that regard. I think it's extremely notable that the original plan was for the Xeno to mimic Ripley into a transmission at the end of the first film. Even if that was excised and is not canon, it certainly heavily implies a certain level of intelligence at conception of the story.
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Mar 16, 2019 04:20
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Even though we only see the egg scene in the director's cut of Alien, the way they capture people to implant in Aliens seems like a reasonable endgame for why in Alien Dallas and Brett are just capital G gone.
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Mar 16, 2019 04:27
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Alien works so well because its so simple. 7 people, a monster, clear simple characterizations, done. Its when stuff gets complicated that it often loses its shine.
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Mar 16, 2019 04:35
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Alien is such a perfect film, it's simple but there's complexity if you want to look for it. The best part is most of it is just unanswered but doesn't leave you questioning "Wait, what did I miss something?" like the screenwriter just cheaped out and tried to play you like you're dumb.banned from Starbucks posted:I like the sentry scenes too. Actually showing them figuring things out works a lot better than just having the aliens disappear for 40minutes with no attempt to get in whatsoever. The sentry gun scenes are actually split up into 2 parts with the first being them just zerg rushing the guns till the ammo runs out and they start beating on the door then....nothing. It just goes to the next scene like "ok." The second part is a bit later where they stop and retreat with the guns at about 10% ammo. The best of both worlds be to keep the setup of the guns and the 2nd part where they stop their advance. The only issue is they keep showing the same shot of an alien exploding that they used previously during the reactor escape scene so it just looks super lazy. The one thing about the Sentry scene that just drives home how hosed they are is Hicks reading off the ammo counts and Hudson going "They're wall to wall in there!" Tired, dirty and with half of their numbers already gone, their best line of defense is effectively drained of all resources but not completely, but there's enough left that's useless anyway but it means that the Aliens are thinking of alternatives. It's creepy as poo poo. What a hosed situation. Neo Rasa posted:Yeah I like it a lot too but it would be an improvement if it was shorter and maybe if the guns were over half full when they stopped instead of almost depleted. I think they both achieved it, but Cameron to a lesser extent but because there's so many so they've got that social aspect.
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Mar 16, 2019 07:29
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Alien nature documentary from perspective of xenodroids.Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:I feel like if you really wanted alien-as-monster to work you'd need to really lean into the stuff Scott and Cameron were implying about the aliens actually being much more intelligent than people thought and have a xenomorph that is actively thinking and reacting intelligently to the protagonists.
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Mar 16, 2019 11:33
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Fart City posted:Something I like about the first Alien is that there's no context given to imply that the xenomorph is an animalistic entity. It is simply a capital-A Alien where we don't know what the extent of its intelligence is. To be honest I kind of don't like Cameron's anthill take in that regard. I think it's extremely notable that the original plan was for the Xeno to mimic Ripley into a transmission at the end of the first film. Even if that was excised and is not canon, it certainly heavily implies a certain level of intelligence at conception of the story.
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Mar 16, 2019 14:38
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Basebf555 posted:This discussion is exactly why Scott's prequels were so great. They absolutely did not feel like soulless rehashes of the original(with the exception of like 10 minutes of Covenant), which is always a big risk with a series like Alien. We're probably just going to get generic soft reboots with Disney now; in fact, I think we probably would have seen some stupid attempt at an Alien/Predator shared universe reboot or something by now if Scott hadn't been in control of the series for the last 10 years. I completely agree with your point. Scott is 100% correct when he said the xeno was cooked. The four original films and the two AVP films have done pretty much every "scary" thing the xeno could do. Even if a skilled director could make the xeno scary again, it's just going to be a rehash of what came before. Prometheus was great because it showed how Scott wasn't interested in soft-reboot crap like everyone else in Hollywood seemingly is (those terrible Jurassic World films *shudders*). The entire film goes without a single xenomorph and he didn't dig up geriatric Sigourney Weaver from the crypt. It was great. So then Fox freaked out over loud Blomkamp fans on the internet clamoring for Aliens: Part II and decided that the xeno must appear in the Prometheus sequel. The way Scott completely sidelined the xeno in favor of the neomorphs and David was genius. The xeno was just a tool in what is David's movie. Both films also have Scott's iconic visuals and designs. Covenant is also notable for its misanthropic tone - I really do believe this was Scott's way of showing how much he despises so many aspects of humanity, and understandably so. The film is full of art references dealing with the end of humanity, existential questions, and statements. David even says "they are a dying species, they don't deserve to start again and I'm not going to let them." It even ends with David "winning" leaving the audience to imagine the type of crazy poo poo he's going to do to the protagonists. These type of films are pretty loving rare in Hollywood these days. And this whole thing with "canon" is pretty dumb IMO. Just pretend the prequels don't exist if you don't like them.
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Mar 17, 2019 10:28
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Slutitution posted:Scott is 100% correct when he said the xeno was cooked. The four original films and the two AVP films have done pretty much every "scary" thing the xeno could do. Slutitution posted:Prometheus was great because it showed how Scott wasn't interested in soft-reboot crap like everyone else in Hollywood seemingly is (those terrible Jurassic World films *shudders*). The entire film goes without a single xenomorph and he didn't dig up geriatric Sigourney Weaver from the crypt. It was great.
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Mar 17, 2019 10:43
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i mean, yeah itd be cool if scott didnt tie his great new movies to the alien mythology cus its kind of needless, but its a bit of a silly hangup to hold over enjoyment of the movie
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Mar 17, 2019 11:08
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alf_pogs posted:i mean, yeah itd be cool if scott didnt tie his great new movies to the alien mythology cus its kind of needless, but its a bit of a silly hangup to hold over enjoyment of the movie Like yeah I can understand and respect people divorcing 'Prometheus' from all other movies and enjoying it in a vacuum, but I'd still say that viewing it within the larger context of the franchise it's a part of is pretty valid.
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Mar 17, 2019 11:44
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Why do you people want alien movies to have aliens?
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Mar 17, 2019 16:01
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I think Scott's right that you can't do anything new with the Xenomorph, but the Xenomorph plays on a lot of primal fears that don't really go away with overuse, so rehashing the old tricks to a different end is more workable than you'd figure.
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Mar 17, 2019 16:09
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Xenomrph posted:This strikes me as a lack of imagination if nothing else. Prometheus wasn’t, but there was def a Xenomorph in Covenant. So it counts.
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Mar 17, 2019 17:15
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Fart City posted:Something I like about the first Alien is that there's no context given to imply that the xenomorph is an animalistic entity. It is simply a capital-A Alien where we don't know what the extent of its intelligence is. To be honest I kind of don't like Cameron's anthill take in that regard. I think it's extremely notable that the original plan was for the Xeno to mimic Ripley into a transmission at the end of the first film. Even if that was excised and is not canon, it certainly heavily implies a certain level of intelligence at conception of the story. While I'm glad they didn't go with this ending, I truly wish they had actually filmed it so it could have ended up a deleted scene like the crab walking alien. It would have been either the creepiest or the goofiest scene in the entire franchise, but either way, it would have been worth seeing.
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Mar 17, 2019 17:22
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Xenomrph posted:Why? Like, if it's going to tie itself into a broader series then I'd say it deserves everything that comes with making those connections. The problem is how we actually interpret that context. The franchise was always been just a loosely connected assemblage of films that all just happened to have certain shared I.P.s, but which were constantly being amended or outright changed for commercial or dramatic purposes. It's perfectly fine to view P/A:C in the context of the franchise, but if we're going to be saying, "Scott went farther than previous artists in changing stuff he didn't necessarily need to," that's patently ridiculous. Scott just has a better imagination than most people. He's not just, like, changing the setting and saying, "Okay, this takes place on a farm, so we need Rooster-morphs." LORD OF BOOTY posted:but the Xenomorph plays on a lot of primal fears that don't really go away with overuse They do, though. It is not the alien that plays on primal fear, the alien is just a guy in a suit. What plays on primal fears are things like good aesthetics - say, playing with the spectator's unconscious awareness of "blind space." That's a primal fear, being an animal that knows you're being hunted but doesn't know where your hunter is. A dick-faced robot-skeleton is not a primal fear, that's a totally modern aestheticization of certain anxieties related to sexuality, industrialization, disease, etc. And like all modern constructions, once you assembly-line and mass-produce it, it becomes old and stupid. What fandom responds to about the xenomorph has nothing to do with primal fear, it's commodity fetishism.
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Mar 17, 2019 17:23
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The Alien movies center around a creature whose life cycle consists of: horrible hell-spider that face-rapes people -> weird worm-thing that chews its way through your abdomen, making you die horribly -> giant carnivorous penis. That's kind of inherently loving scary, is my point. Like, the Xenomorph has only lost fear value because they stopped leaning into this stuff and just started treating it as a weird bug.
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Mar 17, 2019 17:53
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