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DeTosh posted:Given the setting of Shadow Hearts, I could believe Karin just got some secret, occult first draft of the opera that describes sword techniques.
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Mar 16, 2019 23:12
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I imagine if they actually Lore'd it they'd come up with something along the lines of: Wagner's journey into the deep, pre-Christian myths of the German people tapped into the powers of the near-forgotten gods of old. Without knowing his pen flowed not merely with his human research and imagination, but with the barest touch of the divine spirit of Wotan, King of the Gods and Lord of the Berserker. Each word became a song to empower and revivify their namesakes, and each stage direction, each note of swordplay described in the epic scenes, infused with wisdom meant to lead one to Valhalla. Any German reading these words will commune with their ancient gods and ancestors, and swell with valor with which to make the Valkyries turn their gaze.
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Mar 16, 2019 23:18
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That is cool. I'm just a little torn on whether it's weird enough for the game.
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Mar 16, 2019 23:54
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I'm not sure Karin can properly reenact the Nibelungenlied without wings on her shorts.
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Mar 17, 2019 00:04
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Yeah Karin's outfit is definitely one of the weakest things about the game (and some future events with her that are major spoilers.) It's funny because the other female party members (who I won't spoil) definitely are somewhat more modestly dressed. The sidequests for each character to learn techniques are mostly amazing though. Especially Blanca's.
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Mar 17, 2019 00:49
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Robindaybird posted:yeah, I'm with you there. But the outfit is a big yikes, especially given unlike Alice who is mostly going to be standing around (though her skirt's still way too short), Karin would be moving around a lot, making such a tight skirt an extremely impractical idea. I mean, the slits go so high she's basically just wearing a belt with flaps hanging down. Won't do much to restrict her movement, but won't do much to cover anything, either.
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Mar 17, 2019 00:51
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On the other hand, it's still a step above Ashe's outfit from Final Fantasy 12.
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Mar 17, 2019 01:07
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Robindaybird posted:yeah, I'm with you there. But the outfit is a big yikes, especially given unlike Alice who is mostly going to be standing around (though her skirt's still way too short), Karin would be moving around a lot, making such a tight skirt an extremely impractical idea. Personally,when it comes to these sorts of games(especially JRPGs) I don't much care what the characters are wearing as I'm not the type to get worked up about that and having them isn't a mark off a game for me. In general, i don't mind fanservice designs.That said,i will give you that this design is a bit much. But I agree with AM and think that the other things they do to Karin's character are much worse than a simple cheesecake outfit. InfiniteDreamer fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Mar 17, 2019 |
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Mar 17, 2019 01:26
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Karin also appears on the cover of the game, with Yuri nowhere in sight. Her outfit was definitely made to sell copies to horny teenage boys.
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Mar 17, 2019 01:28
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DeTosh posted:That is cool. I'm just a little torn on whether it's weird enough for the game. Gotta have one normal character to contrast with everyone else.
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Mar 17, 2019 01:59
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Man, sign me up for the "I hate Karin's new outfit" bandwagon. I think I wouldn't dislike it as much if her military uniform hadn't been such a good look for her, it's such a massive step down design wise.
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Mar 17, 2019 02:18
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InfiniteDreamer posted:Personally,when it comes to these sorts of games(especially JRPGs) I don't much care what the characters are wearing as I'm not the type to get worked up about that and having them isn't a mark off a game for me. In general, i don't mind fanservice designs.That said,i will give you that this design is a bit much. But I agree with AM and think that the other things they do to Karin's character are much worse than a simple cheesecake outfit. The larger problem to me? Fanservice is kinda whatever really. I mean, let's be real, there are no shortage of people way, way more excited about that army uniform on a well-endowed red head than Karin's main outfit. But it's also just kinda an ugly outfit. I'd argue that another PC in Covenant and Shania from FtNW are higher on just overall intentional sex appeal, and that Alice's outfit is probably more fanservicy for sheer fetish factor, but all of those outfits are more aesthetically coherent and interesting than Karin's weird tiny shirt, huge belt, and high-slit shorts all in different colors. It's not just fanservice, it's badly done and doesn't look like something the character (or any person) would choose to wear. It looks like what it probably is: some artist checking off a bunch of boxes for their target demo.
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Mar 17, 2019 02:19
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CmdrKing posted:I imagine if they actually Lore'd it they'd come up with something along the lines of: It's still a fantastically odd choice for a swishy rapier moveset. Sure, German aristocracy loved their fencing and all, but it doesn't exactly scream Teutonic Myth. Also I don't know if you've ever seen the Ring of the Nibelung but fast-paced action it is not. Dragonball Z has a lower prefight-blather-to-kill ratio.
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Mar 17, 2019 02:21
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CmdrKing posted:It's not just fanservice, it's badly done and doesn't look like something the character (or any person) would choose to wear. It looks like what it probably is: some artist checking off a bunch of boxes for their target demo. I mean they literally say it's old clothes from the creepy magic puppet rather than actual clothes a person would be wearing, that makes it significantly creepier that she never changes this outfit.
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Mar 17, 2019 02:28
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Night10194 posted:I mean they literally say it's old clothes from the creepy magic puppet rather than actual clothes a person would be wearing, that makes it significantly creepier that she never changes this outfit. I just thought that was a thing straight guys do. They don't keep giant puppets with clothes that can barely fit over a grown woman?
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Mar 17, 2019 02:45
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So Karin's Sword Arts moves are supposed to have German names, since she's a German officer and learns them from a German opera and all. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have survived the German->Japanese->English translation very well, and are pretty mangled as a result. So while 'Heuervelk' is sort of German-looking, it's not an actual word. I think I remember reading someplace that it was meant to be 'Feuerwerk' ('Fireworks'), but that could be speculation.
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Mar 17, 2019 03:05
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Night10194 posted:I mean they literally say it's old clothes from the creepy magic puppet rather than actual clothes a person would be wearing, that makes it significantly creepier that she never changes this outfit. Well... Let's say there's a couple inaccuracies in that statement. And also there are... shenanigans with the doll's outfits too. Not that this negates "okay so those where the only feminine clothes in Geppetto's apartment, but why didn't she change the next time you have a pit stop?", but I just find examining from the creative standpoint more informative because there's ways to integrate your fanservice into story and they didn't bother. Which is weirder because other instances of this sorta crap are either used for jokes or to inform character or the like.
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Mar 17, 2019 03:18
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Don't forget her single lace trimmed opera glove. It's like she rummaged through some drawers and just put on the first things she found that were capable of fitting onto her body. I don't mind cheesecake designs either, and at least she's not creepy like being 14 or something, but good lord there's no color coordination or design throughline for it. It's a prime example of the hodge podge outfits that were kinda common in RPGs of the time. Like the protags of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance/A2, but with more skin. I don't hate it, but it could've been done better. Honestly doesn't really detract from the game for me though. Unless I'm blinded by nostalgia, this game is honestly super solid and charming in it's eccentricity.
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Mar 17, 2019 04:33
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I mean, it always felt like Shadow Hearts was going for a kind of 'anime pulp' kind of feel, and this is definitely a step above the classic pulp 'nude woman chained to pillar/rock for sacrifice', but that's not saying much. Anyway, still, Karin is a very good party member. I mentioned before I had Yuri as an adaptable physical attacker, Gepetto as a powerful spellcaster and Blanca as a switch hitter/support. I built Karin as an offensive support: Buff the party and then go on the offensive herself with her sword skills.
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Mar 17, 2019 04:40
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W.T. Fits posted:On the other hand, it's still a step above Ashe's outfit from Final Fantasy 12. I dont know what even the stupid gently caress is going on in that image but i am angry.
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Mar 17, 2019 05:33
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12 had a lot of bad Character design.
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Mar 17, 2019 05:45
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ZeusCannon posted:I dont know what even the stupid gently caress is going on in that image but i am angry. EDIT: I can't keep my lovely FF designers straight. Okay, Akihiko Yoshida is to blame for this one (not to be confused with the Yoshida who saved FFXIV) Robindaybird fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Mar 17, 2019 |
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Mar 17, 2019 05:46
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Robindaybird posted:EDIT: I can't keep my lovely FF designers straight. Yeah, I assumed it was Nomura but instead it's some other guy who just designs costumes the same way, i.e. by cutting up fashion catalogues and then gluing the scraps together at random with his eyes closed.
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Mar 17, 2019 05:51
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And weirdly, both Nomura and Yoshida's designs are way better in non-FF games - TWEWY actually looks stylish even if every character needs to gain a few pounds and Yoshida did Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together which looks nice, it's something about the FF that brings out - that.
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Mar 17, 2019 05:57
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Mentioning the party limit upgrade makes me sad that I still haven't found a jrpg that lets you use your entire expanded party in combat at once. Like when a game gives you like seven or eight people, I wanna see all of them crowding a field and beating on stuff at the same time.
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Mar 17, 2019 06:33
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Brainamp posted:Mentioning the party limit upgrade makes me sad that I still haven't found a jrpg that lets you use your entire expanded party in combat at once. Like when a game gives you like seven or eight people, I wanna see all of them crowding a field and beating on stuff at the same time. Star Ocean 5 has all party members on screen at the same time! 
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Mar 17, 2019 06:48
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Brainamp posted:Mentioning the party limit upgrade makes me sad that I still haven't found a jrpg that lets you use your entire expanded party in combat at once. Like when a game gives you like seven or eight people, I wanna see all of them crowding a field and beating on stuff at the same time. The two Mana Khemia games had three frontliners with a total party size of six/five*. The combat system revolved around constantly rotating everyone between the active frontline and the backline, while backliners recovered HP and SP at a decent clip. Not exactly what you asked for, but it's a decent way for everyone to contribute. *In the first game a 7th character joins in somewhat late but you still can only bring 6 people in the party, in the second game you occasionally get a guest character as 6th and in the postgame the two ateliers join up for a 10 man group, choose any six.
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Mar 17, 2019 08:37
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Brainamp posted:Mentioning the party limit upgrade makes me sad that I still haven't found a jrpg that lets you use your entire expanded party in combat at once. Like when a game gives you like seven or eight people, I wanna see all of them crowding a field and beating on stuff at the same time. The problem is that it's kind of terrible for balance just because of action economy. Having 4 active party members is about as far as you can go before you just become that much more unkillable just because you have so many actions you can take in a turn, even if there are equally as many enemies to deal with.
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Mar 17, 2019 08:49
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Omobono posted:The two Mana Khemia games had three frontliners with a total party size of six/five*. The combat system revolved around constantly rotating everyone between the active frontline and the backline, while backliners recovered HP and SP at a decent clip. Not exactly what you asked for, but it's a decent way for everyone to contribute. Otherwise you're not going to find a JRPG that allows you to fight with a party size of more than, say, 5 or 6 max, because like somebody else said, as you add more actions and skillsets to a party, you decrease difficulty exponentially (or at least in a faster than linear progression).
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Mar 17, 2019 11:18
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Commander Keene posted:Likewise, Breath of Fire 4 did a similar mechanic with its backline, iirc. It has been years since I've played through that game, but you had your three-man fighting party up front, and the rest of the playable cast was in the back, which recovered HP/AP. I also seem to recall a JRPG that had an almost Marvel vs. Capcom style switching mechanic, where you could switch in a character for free and they'd get an attack when switched in. BoF IV is also unique in that the backline folks still contributed to the fight even if they were automated and only had a few moves. I think the aforementioned Star Ocean 5 is the only one with a large endgame party (9 or 10 iirc) that has them all actively fighting and even then you only direct four at a time. It's also a game completely wrecked by having a shoestring budget and sone really questionable character designs. There was actually a good discussion in the RPG megathread about how often a predetermined party can be the best design wise because you'll never be neglecting characters over games with a larger party that only let you bring a few into battle. Thankfully everybody in SH2 is quite useful and can be effective from the moment they join right to the end. Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Mar 17, 2019 |
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Mar 17, 2019 13:17
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The mobs being thinly veiled Combatmen is fitting, I guess, because the Combatmen (and Shocker in general) are already even more thinly veiled Nazis. They even do the salute and everything. It's a couple decades early in game for that, though
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Mar 17, 2019 13:23
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DukeofCA posted:Karin also appears on the cover of the game, with Yuri nowhere in sight. Her outfit was definitely made to sell copies to horny teenage boys. Well, not on the Japanese cover, that one just has Yuri. But yeah, the outfit is terrible. I wish I could switch her back to her uniform.
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Mar 17, 2019 13:33
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Malachite_Dragon posted:The mobs being thinly veiled Combatmen is fitting, I guess, because the Combatmen (and Shocker in general) are already even more thinly veiled Nazis. They even do the salute and everything. It's a couple decades early in game for that, though
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Mar 17, 2019 14:31
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Alaan posted:12 had a lot of bad Character design. The fact Vaan was the main protagonist because they thought Basch wasn't engaging/attractive enough to sell the game on his own still pisses me off. FF12 had a LOT of bad choices, but the Vaan/Basch one was probably the worst of the lot...so much beginning padding...
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Mar 17, 2019 14:43
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Kemix posted:The fact Vaan was the main protagonist because they thought Basch wasn't engaging/attractive enough to sell the game on his own still pisses me off. FF12 had a LOT of bad choices, but the Vaan/Basch one was probably the worst of the lot...so much beginning padding... Well, it's not the first time square enix picked the wrong person to be a protagonist. Yuna should have been the lead in Final Fantasy X. That is a fact.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:49
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FF kind of had a bad habit of refusing to make their female protags the actual protag from time to time, i.e. Yuna is the real protag of 10 and Ashe is the one for 12 As exceptions go 6 had Terra and Celes as the protags, X-2 finally gives Yuna the spot, and then Lightning pushed the series into having the the female protag be the real protag more often than not.
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Mar 17, 2019 14:57
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only problem is Lightning is a loving terrible character and clearly someone's waifu to the point Square going "FIRST FEMALE HERO!!!" while downplaying Yuna, Terra and Celes' importance.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:35
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Robindaybird posted:only problem is Lightning is a loving terrible character and clearly someone's waifu to the point Square going "FIRST FEMALE HERO!!!" while downplaying Yuna, Terra and Celes' importance. Whats even funnier is that if you replace Lightning's Protagonist Slot with the character who has the most story importance...you still end up with a female lead in Vanille or Fang. But they don't look like Female Cloud with the personality of sand so obviously they're not good leads.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:53
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Sgt Thud posted:Whats even funnier is that if you replace Lightning's Protagonist Slot with the character who has the most story importance...you still end up with a female lead in Vanille or Fang. Question: Would YOU want the protagonist of a JRPG to have an high pitched, intentionally overblown* Australian accent? Because Vanille would be far more likely than Fang to get the nod in that scenario, and I don't know how much of that voice a lot of people can take. *Her VA, while definitely Australian even in normal speech, apparently got told to super exaggerate it during recording
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Mar 17, 2019 15:57
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Sordas Volantyr posted:Question: Would YOU want the protagonist of a JRPG to have an high pitched, intentionally overblown* Australian accent? without knowing anything about Vanille or Fang my answer is "yes, duh"
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Mar 17, 2019 16:00
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