|
I really feel like the people decrying Disco as edgelord fascist Trek haven’t watched anything in season 2, or even anything past the admittedly awful season 1 openers. At worst Disco is trippy nonsense Trek.
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 17:16
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 20:31 |
|
|
They're still doing dumb poo poo like "oh we killed the mansplaining guy we're so progressive" instead of anything remotely meaty, it's still pathetic and it's fundamentally not going to improve lmao but certain people are going to keep apologizing for it because they're going down a little checklist lol have some bread
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 17:29
|
|
|
Don’t worry. The season will be over soon and these threads will return to the same 4 people posting how much they dislike it every day.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 17:31
|
|
|
Everyone loves Star trek discovery! Yaaay
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 17:51
|
|
|
Angry Salami posted:I think Discovery would have been a lot stronger if they'd just ditched the three Brian Fuller scripts entirely. A lot of the thematically weird stuff is in those episodes - like the prison labor references - and then the rest of season one seems to be trying to get away from everything set up there as quickly as possible. Burnham being an ex-con is basically dropped entirely, the Klingon War ends up taking a backseat to anything and everything else, and in general, the characters lighten up a lot. Honestly, Fuller should have been fired a lot sooner than he was.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 17:52
|
|
|
Tighclops posted:lol have some bread Are you seriously invoking “bread and circuses”?
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:03
|
|
|
I am convinced no one has ever loved the smell of their own farts more than Fuller. I haven’t watched a ton of his stuff, but what I’ve seen has been super self-indulgent.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:07
|
|
|
Geekboy posted:Don’t worry. The season will be over soon and these threads will return to the same 4 people posting how much they dislike it every day. I dunno why you love Discovery so much. Like I say the representation is nice but it's such a boring vehicle for it. If I wanted Doctor Who I'd watch Doctor Who, I guess.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:15
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:Are you seriously invoking “bread and circuses”? lol no Geekboy posted:I am convinced no one has ever loved the smell of their own farts more than Fuller. I haven’t watched a ton of his stuff, but what I’ve seen has been super self-indulgent. Absolutely. This show never really had a chance.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:17
|
|
|
I seem to remember everyone was tripping over themselves when Fuller was announced, to say that it was a good thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:20
|
|
|
I thought he might have been good at least initially since he's worked on some previous trek episodes that were good, but in the time since I've gone and checked out other stuff he's worked on and now it's like yeah he's he's not so good
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:24
|
|
|
Tighclops posted:They're still doing dumb poo poo like "oh we killed the mansplaining guy we're so progressive" instead of anything remotely meaty That was one tiny moment in the series premiere that took up all of ten seconds total and was never mentioned again.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:32
|
|
|
Tighclops posted:yeah Well, it's good to know we can agree on some things
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:34
|
|
|
Tighclops posted:I thought he might have been good at least initially since he's worked on some previous trek episodes that were good, but in the time since I've gone and checked out other stuff he's worked on and now it's like He's an excellent ideas guy, generally. Pushing Daisies, Dead Like Me, Wonderfalls, Hannibal, they're all in the range of good to excellent. Fuller as a producer is loving terrible and is a massive drama queen. There's a reason he got fired from Dead Like Me, American Gods and Discovery. Amazon declined to pick up Hannibal for a fourth season because he insisted on having all 13 episodes written before production began, Amazon looked at what a shitshow behind the scenes Hannibal was, and basically said, "gently caress no, because it'll be years before you get a single episode out." Basically, he's the poster child of thinking that all his problems are someone else's fault. What's the old saying? "If you think everyone else in the room is an rear end in a top hat, you're the rear end in a top hat." Timby fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Mar 17, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:36
|
|
|
ashpanash posted:Well, it's good to know we can agree on some things This is the real beginning of the Federation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 18:58
|
|
|
Taear posted:And Tasha's planet specifically wasn't in the federation although it wasn't ever really explained how human colonies outside the federation exist. The colony may have been established before the Federation itself was founded, or it may have left the Federation. Why wouldn't they allow them to leave? Self-determination is a pretty important value to the Federation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 19:12
|
|
|
"Night" (VOY S05E01) was a good episode. The Night Aliens had a nice deisgn. There are questions like if they live "in the void", then I suppose they don't live physically on the surface of a planet somehow, but then what do they eat, but I don't care about that and I like the idea nevertheless. The wiki entry mentions that it was unrealistic for Janeway to go through depression and get over it in one episode, but given the "nearly everything must be self-contained in one episode" nature of the show, it's probably better they did it in one episode than not at all. Voyager is at its best when it plays to the premise of the show, rather than using plots which could fit in any sci-fi show, like "Unforgettable", the forgettable episode where Chakotay falls in love with an alien who can't be remembered.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 19:29
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:The colony may have been established before the Federation itself was founded, or it may have left the Federation. Why wouldn't they allow them to leave? Self-determination is a pretty important value to the Federation. "We'd like to leave so we can create a scarcity society" would have me there investigating it at least. Timby posted:He's an excellent ideas guy, generally. Pushing Daisies, Dead Like Me, Wonderfalls, Hannibal, they're all in the range of good to excellent. I really, really liked the idea of it being an Anthology show. And the first series definitely feels like that's what he wanted what with the whole Voq thing.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 19:40
|
|
|
Taear posted:I really, really liked the idea of it being an Anthology show. And the first series definitely feels like that's what he wanted what with the whole Voq thing. That's precisely what he originally pitched.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 19:41
|
|
|
Timby posted:That's precisely what he originally pitched. I...know? That's what I'm saying. I liked the idea and you can see it really heavily in Voq.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 19:45
|
|
|
who the gently caress is voq
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 19:49
|
|
|
Disco under Fuller would've been fine, just a year and a half late. A rushed takeover job from Fuller to Kurtzman was really the worst case scenario. It's basically like what happened to the Hobbit; they dragged in a replacement at the last moment and wouldn't let them redo the pre-production so they were making someone else's vision, doing it poorly because it wasn't what they wanted, and rewriting scripts on the fly. and poking holes in all the ships and sharpening the points
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Mar 17, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 19:50
|
|
|
Tighclops posted:who the gently caress is voq Clem Fandango?
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 19:58
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Disco under Fuller would've been fine, just a year and a half late. It already was a year and a half late. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:03
|
|
|
Casting and every single other aspect of production makes a Trek anthology series basically impossible to finance unless you’re cool with cardboard sets. And considering half the posts about problems with the show are about feeling like side characters don’t get enough development (a criticism I and members of the cast agree with), I can only imagine how much worse that would be. I think an anthology sounds way better than it could possibly be. And I acknowledge this has all been said before in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:05
|
|
|
Geekboy posted:Casting and every single other aspect of production makes a Trek anthology series basically impossible to finance unless you’re cool with cardboard sets. There's plenty of other anthologies that work fine, I don't think the casting part is true at all. Making new sets for a sci-fi anthology would be expensive as hell though. Nobody would care about the side characters in an anthology series because that's not really the idea. People are mad that Decker and etc aren't developed because it's supposed to be a proper series with them in it all the time, less of a bother if there's only 13 episodes or something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:13
|
|
|
Timby posted:It already was a year and a half late. Oh that's just because CBS thought they could poo poo out a trek show in three months or something.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:14
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:Here's a tip: the members of the Federation are full of poo poo. They talk a big game and act holier-than-thou because they don't obsess over the contents of their bank accounts, but Miles and Julian are still there in Quark's buying drinks and holosuite time. I would say the actual answer is that capitalism is dead in Star Trek until the plot requires someone to buy something. This is true of even OG Star Trek.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:18
|
|
|
Sodomy Hussein posted:I would say the actual answer is that capitalism is dead in Star Trek until the plot requires someone to buy something. This is true of even OG Star Trek. Right, so post-scarcity capitalism. Nobody goes without the necessities of life, but any time you want a specialty item it’s back to capital or barter.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:22
|
|
|
They don't have to go Orville-style on the sets but they could probably turn them around cheaper and quicker for an anthology style show if they were willing to accept slightly less fidelity. Especially if you designed the sets in a modular way so that they could be relatively easily redressed and rearranged to depict different ships.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:31
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Oh that's just because CBS thought they could poo poo out a trek show in three months or something. Fuller farting around and not getting scripts written had something to do with that too. At least Roddenberry had the excuse of being a sickly and senile old man.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:33
|
|
|
Phylodox posted:Right, so post-scarcity capitalism. Nobody goes without the necessities of life, but any time you want a specialty item it’s back to capital or barter. Yes, but this is handled inconsistently, so Picard will say things that are straight-up untrue when taken with the totality of Star Trek. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H5uPyU2oKE Whereas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_EdJmj8szQ ... In which McCoy finds himself stranded on an unfinished Star Wars script draft (it was 1984, after all). Maybe Picard's full of poo poo and we're meant to think that (we're not), or maybe decades of television and movies that were following different guidelines and have no internal consistency happened. There are plenty of things about Trek that do not make sense, because it is not hard sci-fi but a Morality Tale of the Week format. Sometimes the writers intentionally broke continuity, despite the fact that Star Trek had a team of technical consultants to vet scripts for technological continuity errors. So when I go on and on criticizing the Prime Directive as a concept that doesn't work in or outside of the show, and yet Picard stans for it in every episode he has to deal with it, I am taking umbrage at the writing, not the internal logic of the show, which beyond broad strokes usually does not exist. I could also question why and how the Neutral Zone in TNG works when space is not a flat plane and ships can go many times the speed of light, but that would be vastly missing the point.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:38
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Fuller farting around and not getting scripts written had something to do with that too. At least Roddenberry had the excuse of being a sickly and senile old man. Yeah, I know. CBS underestimated what was reasonable and Fuller can never make even reasonable schedules anyway. They really should've done the mid-TNG thing and had double but seperate responsibility showrunners working together like Puller and Berman, one for creative and one for making poo poo actually happen. (Before Berman decided to stick his grubby hands in creative as well) Maybe they tried that at some point, Discovery's gone through like five producers, hasn't it? MikeJF fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Mar 17, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:43
|
|
|
Christ. So Fuller was showrunner, Kurtzman a producer, then Fuller was fired right before production started and Berg and Harberts made showrunners, Goldman brought on as supporting producer, together they managed to force out Season 1, Goldman was fired between seasons, Berg and Harberts were fired midway through season 2 production, Kurtzman was made sole showrunner from there, and for Season 3 they've promoted a writer Michelle Paradise to be co-showrunner with him.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Mar 17, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 20:59
|
|
|
When 50 Year Mission becomes, like, 75 Year Mission, there’s gonna be some super saucy stories in there about the production of the first 2 seasons of Discovery.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 21:06
|
|
|
I'm still of the opinion that if Discovery had been set another 100 years after DS9/Voyager, it would at least be tolerable: Showing Section 31 going out of control in a post Dominion-era galaxy war cuz you gotta make your show GRITTY? Okay. Crazy futuristic technology in the same era when old Trek embrased the 60's look ala Relics/Trials and Tribulations? Okay. Stupid John Eaves designs to Federation ships? Ugh gently caress but at least bearable. Having the "Klingon" be another warlike race that tries to even out Klingons the Klingons? Okay! Stupid loving Spore drives that are never mentioned again EVEN in a life or death war against the Borg and Dominion? Ugh gently caress nevermind gently caress this show. Gotta cash in on that Spock poo poo though. jeeves fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Mar 17, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 22:20
|
|
|
Big Mean Jerk posted:I really feel like the people decrying Disco as edgelord fascist Trek haven’t watched anything in season 2, or even anything past the admittedly awful season 1 openers. Why would anyone watch the show beyond the, in your words, "awful" season 1? Taear posted:"We'd like to leave so we can create a scarcity society" would have me there investigating it at least. Sodomy Hussein posted:Yes, but this is handled inconsistently, so Picard will say things that are straight-up untrue when taken with the totality of Star Trek. I think Picard is telling the truth; but it's a truth within a certain cultural and ideological context. There is no money/capitalism in "the federation" (using an admittedly human-centric view of the federation); that's the ideal they aspire to, and as far as earth and most of the human settlements is concerned, also the practical reality. However, there are exceptions. Starfleet is one such exception; they and the colonizing efforts that Starfleet support are explorers and so are often put in situations where they're exposed to, or even expected to coexist with other cultures. Starfleet and colonists are sometimes placed in situations where scarcity is a factor, or where cultural norms demand trade; it would severely threaten the primary mission of Starfleet to refuse to engage with any culture engaging in Capitalism, although I would love to have seen episodes that dealt with human efforts to maintain and protect their ideology when threatened by the corrupting influence of Capitalism. Most of the stuff we see in the show is explicitly "the wild west". It's the unknown and the frontier. They make fun of this in the first episode of DS9, where Bashir pretty much embodies the idea of the white man come to bring western medicine to the natives, but it's the basic truth of the show. Chief O'Brien is crazy to want to raise his daughter on DS9. The Federation are committing a huge amount of resources to rebuild Bajor and control this sector of space, but it's still the fringes, and Sisko clearly cannot replicate the whole planet for the Bajorans. Trade is meant to be the exception to the rule, and most episodes take place in exceptional circumstances because that is where the drama is. So, while Picard might technically be saying something false out of context, I believe the reality he is describing is the reality for most humans in that universe, just not always the people we follow. thotsky fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Mar 18, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 22:35
|
|
|
I'd certainly believe in the Klingon Empire balkanizing after DS9. Ezri laid the smackdown on the Empire out to Worf, and I'd have no trouble believing that Martok would be a highly controversial reformer who might see a civil war start during his time, or during that of his inevitably less capable successor.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2019 22:36
|
|
|
The way DISCO most feels like TOS is that sense that they're making it all up as they go along. This is even mildly annoying in TOS. It's just frankly disappointing in DISCO
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2019 00:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 3, 2024 20:31 |
|
|
Cythereal posted:I'd certainly believe in the Klingon Empire balkanizing after DS9. Ezri laid the smackdown on the Empire out to Worf, and I'd have no trouble believing that Martok would be a highly controversial reformer who might see a civil war start during his time, or during that of his inevitably less capable successor. I dunno, in a way I could see the events of DS9 helping to stabilize the Empire. Remember, the rot in the Empire is not a new thing that DS9 brought to the table; it dated back to TNG season 3 when Worf and Picard find out that the entire High Council knows it was the father of Duras that sold out Khitomer Outpost to the Romulans, and explicitly pinned the blame on a dead guy because they knew the alternative was immediate civil war. And then a succession crisis a year later leads to a civil war anyway... which theoretically resolves some of it (even if the Duras sisters are still out there trying to gin up support for another bid at power) but still leaves Gowron with a lot of baggage (Picard's role in succession) and the overall imperial aristocracy still thirsting for a war with outsiders. DS9 gives the Klingons the big war they've been hoping for and a lot of new songs to sing about it, and eventually topples Gowron as well. Now they've got a pragmatic war vet with a long list of glories behind him for a chancellor, and new bonding experiences with their allies in the Federation. I mean yeah you could go from there and write it as "in the 24th/25th century there is ONLY WAR  " but last I checked this was Star Trek and not Warhammer 40,000.
|
|
#
?
Mar 18, 2019 00:07
|
|