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Chaiki's Reason is brought about by her valuing her high status, and now that it's been ripped away from her, she becomes obsessed with getting it back, and paranoid that people are taking what's "rightfully" hers. Her just wanting things to go back to her comfortable rich life so badly that she gets a tree arm honestly makes sense to me Isamu's Reason just seems kind of born of loneliness and dissatisfaction, extremely normal themes out of a teenager. When your life isn't perfect, and adulthood is looming in front of you, everyone just loving off into their own happy place sounds pretty great. I think there's probably way less in the game to paint this picture of Isamu, it's been too long for me to remember, but I like the idea at least. I don't remember Isamu being a bad dude really
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Mar 17, 2019 08:45
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Listen, don't give me an optional dungeon and all the cool bosses and then lock me into an ending when I go kick its rear end and then maybe I'll get a chance to explore my other options. Looking at YOU, Nocturne.
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Mar 17, 2019 10:02
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If you wanna do both the labyrinth and get a non-TDE end all you have to do is not talk to Lucifer after you beat Metatron
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Mar 17, 2019 10:08
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Saagonsa posted:If you wanna do both the labyrinth and get a non-TDE end all you have to do is not talk to Lucifer after you beat Metatron I dunno, locking the game's one superboss behind one specific ending that also requires you to go through the entire optional dungeon is such a "this is the correct ending" flag that I can't imagine that anyone would get that far and say "you know what the ending where everyone gets to be alone sounds cool, goodbye The Devil"
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Mar 17, 2019 10:21
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(I wouldn't actually consider any of the other endings even if I could. The complete table flip of TDE is just too good.)
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Mar 17, 2019 10:27
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PMush Perfect posted:(I wouldn't actually consider any of the other endings even if I could. The complete table flip of TDE is just too good.) I really see it as the "original" White Ending. Everyone is trapped in YHVH's vicious cycle and this is probably embodied most by Hijiri. So the only answer is to just kill everyone and be free at last. Although the writers of Nocturne clearly favor TDE while the writers of IV, despite their being awesome enough to include that ending, clearly think it's wrong. Cleretic posted:I kind of got the idea that being in the Vortex World twisted Isamu and Chiaki's minds--either directly or just as a natural consequence of being the only humans left in a world full of demons--thus explaining why their Reasons, or at least their articulation of them, are pretty unhinged. Hikawa has no excuse, though. If every ending was clearly flawed, that be appreciated. People can usually sense or tell what ending the creators favor and naturally gravitate towards it. The inclusion of TDE and Freedom kinda screws that up. If all you had were the Reasons, that be ideal. Then people could endlessly debate which is least bad and honestly that shows what a person values most I think. And I think the fact Neutral kicks the can down the road is the entire point. People look at the genocide and brainwashing in Law or Chaos endings and are like "oh no!" But in Neutral, all that death will still be happening. It just won't be happening now so people feel less guilty. The problem is Neutral is Humanity gently caress Yeah and humans will never be without war or starvation or other problems. I figure that's what Neutral represents from a thematic perspective. There's also the original Blood Omen where sitting on a throne, drinking blood and damning the world turns out to be the right choice.
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Mar 17, 2019 10:55
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:I'm mixed about it. Strange journey redux is awesome in this way as the plus endings are you directly addressing the extremist factions in the original ending in order to give you a pretty good ending that doesn't involve genocide or brainwashing (and neutral plus has it a little bit but it's def not as happy an ending)
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Mar 17, 2019 12:19
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NikkolasKing posted:And I think the fact Neutral kicks the can down the road is the entire point. People look at the genocide and brainwashing in Law or Chaos endings and are like "oh no!" But in Neutral, all that death will still be happening. It just won't be happening now so people feel less guilty. The problem is Neutral is Humanity gently caress Yeah and humans will never be without war or starvation or other problems. I figure that's what Neutral represents from a thematic perspective. This is absolutely how Neutral is generally taken; you're only bringing things back to the pre-game status quo, with at best some vague discussion about how maybe things can change now that we know the consequences. IV's a bit different in that regard just because of circumstances, but it's the exception there. I don't know if it was ever confirmed or denied, but I liked the notion that SMTIV takes place after Strange Journey's Neutral ending, and that the Schwartzwelt survivors took that undertaking seriously enough to become the 'Country A' mentioned in IV as the source of the Demonicas. But maybe that's just because I like the idea of us seeing someone who's done this all before, to drive home that Neutral's approach really is just staving off the inevitable.
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Mar 17, 2019 12:26
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The arguments against Law and Chaos, especially Law, tend to center on arguments about coercion and autonomy. "Sure people are happy and peaceful but they aren't free so what does it matter?" This argument never really flew with me because it seemed to me Neutral violates peoples' freedom, too. Who are you to kill their gods? SMTIVA is all about how tons of people sided with Merkabah and Lucifer. Where is their autonomy in your Neutral world? But then somebody pointed out that YHVH and Lucifer are eternal beings precisely because people want them both and Neutral is the only route where people are still allowed to think and act as they see fit. This ensures the war between angels and demons will continue indefinitely, though.One of the more n interesting discussion in the first Devil Survivor game was Naoya asking me if I thought humans were more like gods or demons. I said demons as I tend to be rather Hobbesian about how I think people would act if given no restraints. Or too many restraints. Can't get more Chaotic than that. But Naoya disagreed, claiming he had observed masses of humans and deemed them a mix of both, and I guess the respawning of YHVH and Lucifer proves him right. Human...ambiguity and "vagueness" to use his term are endlessly frustrating to both him and me. I told Lucifer I want "a sublime world without ambiguity" and he applauded my efforts. Law and Chaos want to stamp out the other because they know if humans are left to their own devices, they will stray to the opposite path. I think Blasted Akira yearning for Chaos and Infernal Akira yearning for Law are meant to show this. The result is that Neutral kinda defeats itself in a way. It perpetuates Law and Chaos both. All well and good in theory but "theory" has deep repercussions in the SMT world where ideas create beings who destroy universes.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:05
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NikkolasKing posted:Ya know, I used to be hardcore Law when I got into the franchise with SJ and then Nocturne. But Hikawa is really the least charismatic and convincing Law proponent of all time. He actively persuaded me out of agreeing with him. Hikawa's version of 'law' is the only time law sounded like an actual coherent ideology instead of just a bunch of dumb robots going "YOU SHOULD WORSHIP YHVH AND SUBMIT TO HIS WILL BECAUSE.....I MEAN HE'S GOD SO IT JUST MAKES SENSE YOU KNOW?" Every Law ending that isn't in nocture or SJ Redux is just the escape of the weak of mind because they couldn't be assed to live their own existence and give it up to a slightly higher power. They're always utterly pathetic and weak and go apeshit when you step out of line a little bit. At least the chaos forces usually go "Well gently caress, we lost but hey you're pretty tough so that's cool."
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Mar 17, 2019 15:25
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The White use those same arguments when they try to get you to just wipe out everything and then in Apocalypse you learn how pointless and futile it is to even try to achieve their nihilistic wet dream
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Mar 17, 2019 15:26
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HerraS posted:The White use those same arguments when they try to get you to just wipe out everything and then in Apocalypse you learn how pointless and futile it is to even try to achieve their nihilistic wet dream I mean it's not a good ideology but it's at least something compared to the usual LAW schoolmarm coming up and trying to get you to give up free will for lent.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:28
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Hikawa's version of 'law' is the only time law sounded like an actual coherent ideology instead of just a bunch of dumb robots going "YOU SHOULD WORSHIP YHVH AND SUBMIT TO HIS WILL BECAUSE.....I MEAN HE'S GOD SO IT JUST MAKES SENSE YOU KNOW?" i said earlier I relate to Zelenin because she's a person who just wants somebody to tell her it's okay; to keep her safe and give her life meaning. I think a lot of people are like that, maybe even most. Not everyone wants to stand on their own, even if they could. The appeal of Law is the freedom to give up your freedom and people have done that since forever. When you think about it, freedom is more terrifying than almost anything in the world. Even Chaos isn't real freedom it's still putting you in a hierarchy, it's just a hierarchy of constant flux. Dagda recognized that, I think. You still define yourself in relation to others and gain validation from them, it's just by beating them instead of bowing to them.
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Mar 17, 2019 15:48
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NikkolasKing posted:i said earlier I relate to Zelenin because she's a person who just wants somebody to tell her it's okay; to keep her safe and give her life meaning. I think a lot of people are like that, maybe even most. Not everyone wants to stand on their own, even if they could. The appeal of Law is the freedom to give up your freedom and people have done that since forever. When you think about it, freedom is more terrifying than almost anything in the world. Zenelin's break down leads her to become a literal statue who's entire existence is an object that exists to be the middle man to a grander power that no one can actually communicate or form connection to. It's a motivation to de-personalize herself and forcefully do it to everyone around her regardless of their wishes. Chaos is also just as stupid in other ways but seeing what Zelenin does when she arrives at the conclusion of "I am weak and need help" makes he just as monstrous as "Kill Em All 1996" Jiminez. Her being afraid and wanting help is relatable, just like Jiminez's anger at the cruelty of those in power, it's that second step they do that makes it immediately "Oh you've lost your loving mind."
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Mar 17, 2019 18:05
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NikkolasKing posted:Ya know, I used to be hardcore Law when I got into the franchise with SJ and then Nocturne. But Hikawa is really the least charismatic and convincing Law proponent of all time. He actively persuaded me out of agreeing with him. The haircut alone makes me not understand how ANYONE wanted to work for/with the drat dude. Expect My Mom posted:Chaiki's Reason is brought about by her valuing her high status, and now that it's been ripped away from her, she becomes obsessed with getting it back, and paranoid that people are taking what's "rightfully" hers. Her just wanting things to go back to her comfortable rich life so badly that she gets a tree arm honestly makes sense to me These descriptions make a lot more sense than anything actually mentioned to me in the game far as I can remember. They kind of both just...start being assholes and you're not really sure why exactly. Obviously bad poo poo probably happened to them since they decided to wander around alone as powerless humans and all, but it's not said what and it's just kind of like....uh ok I guess you are Ms. Kill or Be Killed now? Maybe I missed some lines somewhere. Maybe there was something with Isamu spending time in prison and being like "yeah actually being alone rules"? From my perspective it mostly seemed like I was bailing my classmates out of dangerous situations and they got all in my face instead of saying thanks.  Also just using this as an excuse to post  joots Light Gun Man fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Mar 17, 2019 |
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Mar 17, 2019 18:18
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NikkolasKing posted:i said earlier I relate to Zelenin because she's a person who just wants somebody to tell her it's okay; to keep her safe and give her life meaning. I think a lot of people are like that, maybe even most. Not everyone wants to stand on their own, even if they could. The appeal of Law is the freedom to give up your freedom and people have done that since forever. When you think about it, freedom is more terrifying than almost anything in the world. I, uhh, think it's less because that "freedom is terrifying" and more "people look for easier solutions" and that no man is truly an island. We're social and we're supposed to rely on each other and community for help. But when you're atomized in a modern society, that urge doesn't magically go away, but it does make it easier for that urge to latch onto authority figures, especially if they come across as populist. Saying "people are actually afraid of freedom" just makes it sound like ideologies like Facism are valid, and I cannot and will never accept this as true. Sorry. Getting back to SMT, though, I think the Law and Chaos endings being extreme and maybe not what their advocates initially wanted or pictured is part of the point. It actually leads back to what I was saying about stuff like Facism not actually being "valid", because at least with the Neutral endings, your wish can't become twisted and corrupted by authority figures. Even if it resets to the status quo or gives you more time, it's still more time to think of a more complex solution to the problem that would have everyone better off in the long run than to have either God or Lucifer come in and magically fix things.
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Mar 17, 2019 18:25
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HerraS posted:The White use those same arguments when they try to get you to just wipe out everything and then in Apocalypse you learn how pointless and futile it is to even try to achieve their nihilistic wet dream   "We believe in nothing, Flynn! Nothing!"Seriously, gently caress the White.
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Mar 17, 2019 18:38
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Light Gun Man posted:Also just using this as an excuse to post Her jirt and her jop look more purple than blue to me. Blurple.
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Mar 17, 2019 18:38
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Light Gun Man posted:These descriptions make a lot more sense than anything actually mentioned to me in the game far as I can remember. They kind of both just...start being assholes and you're not really sure why exactly. Obviously bad poo poo probably happened to them since they decided to wander around alone as powerless humans and all, but it's not said what and it's just kind of like....uh ok I guess you are Ms. Kill or Be Killed now? Maybe I missed some lines somewhere. Maybe there was something with Isamu spending time in prison and being like "yeah actually being alone rules"? From my perspective it mostly seemed like I was bailing my classmates out of dangerous situations and they got all in my face instead of saying thanks. their demonic forms look sick as hell tho
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Mar 17, 2019 18:44
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Wark Say posted:
Say what you want about the tenets of all the extremist Law and Chaos factions, at least those are ethoses.
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Mar 17, 2019 18:50
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Expect My Mom posted:Yeah a lot of what I said could just be my headcanon, I think Chiaki might be rude and violent and Isamu more of a coward. I do not remember Nocturne that well, but I tried to make those two weirdos make sense to myself It's been a long time since I've played Nocturne, but that's pretty much what I remember of them too. And I've said it before, but the fact that there's no boss fights against these two forms is drat travesty  
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Mar 17, 2019 18:55
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Isamu looked better before becoming a Pseudo-Fiend.  Chiaki looks super rad tho
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Mar 17, 2019 18:57
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important distinction is that the faces on isamu's body undulate and write the cutscene direction in nocturne is so good
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Mar 17, 2019 19:00
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iirc chiaki spends most of the early game very timid and overwhelmed by her surroundings, her Reason is partly a reaction to her earlier behavior
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Mar 17, 2019 19:02
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BaDandy posted:I, uhh, think it's less because that "freedom is terrifying" and more "people look for easier solutions" and that no man is truly an island. We're social and we're supposed to rely on each other and community for help. But when you're atomized in a modern society, that urge doesn't magically go away, but it does make it easier for that urge to latch onto authority figures, especially if they come across as populist. Saying "people are actually afraid of freedom" just makes it sound like ideologies like Facism are valid, and I cannot and will never accept this as true. Sorry. Some of the most ardently anti-fascist thinkers of the 20th Century are where I get my inspiration on this matter. Jean- Paul Sartre said it best when he said man is condemned to be free. His whole philosophy of existentialism and his idea of 'living in bad faith" said things like going to a religion or whatever for guidance was living wrongly because you are just looking for somebody else to tell you what the meaning of your life is and only you can make that. There was also Erich Fromm who wrote a book called Escape From Freedom which offered a theory about why German citizens worked with the Nazis. "Freedom" entails a lot more than just politics. It entails everything you do and are. People are scared of that for a lot of reasons. In a world without answers, where the choice is to succeed or fail, isn't it easier to just let somebody do it all for you? Just let somebody tell you why you are here and what you are destined for. It's the underlying principle of religion and religion is as old as mankind itself. Being afraid to think for yourself is not a modern invention by any means. This is how the SMT writers see things, I think. The entire series and Persona are dripping with Existentialism. Law and Chaos are looking without when the answer for man's future is in himself and him alone.
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Mar 17, 2019 19:16
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Dragonatrix posted:Isamu looked better before becoming a Pseudo-Fiend. He looks like he should have been / merged with Sakihagi but he...has nothing to do with him? It's weird. Also, the implications with the souls in the maze / Sakihagi and Futomimi are kinda neat.
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Mar 17, 2019 19:23
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NikkolasKing posted:The entire series and Persona are dripping with Existentialism. Law and Chaos are looking without when the answer for man's future is in himself and him alone.
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Mar 17, 2019 19:23
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I have a very soft spot for Strange Journey as it was my first ever foray into SMT-land, and was actually the first video game I'd played in years by that point. As awful as it was to slog through a couple of the maps, the law-chaos dichotomy fascinated me. I didn't realize I had a third choice really until I was already locked in to the Law route, but I remember thinking that every character was insane and that both Zelenin and Jimenez were going to straight up kill my rear end so I went with mindless robot rather then getting torn limb from limb by demons. Of course, as soon as my playthrough was over I ordered like 5 SMT/persona games to sate my newly found hunger for demons  . I haven't gotten Redux yet, but I'm really looking forward to the improvements.
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Mar 17, 2019 22:12
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sandnavyguy posted:I have a very soft spot for Strange Journey as it was my first ever foray into SMT-land, and was actually the first video game I'd played in years by that point. As awful as it was to slog through a couple of the maps, the law-chaos dichotomy fascinated me. I didn't realize I had a third choice really until I was already locked in to the Law route, but I remember thinking that every character was insane and that both Zelenin and Jimenez were going to straight up kill my rear end so I went with mindless robot rather then getting torn limb from limb by demons. Of course, as soon as my playthrough was over I ordered like 5 SMT/persona games to sate my newly found hunger for demons As we all know, you msut rend, slaughter, devour your enemies.
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Mar 17, 2019 22:17
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MonsieurChoc posted:As we all know, you msut rend, slaughter, devour your enemies. DDS was awesome, I loved my Hindu SMT time  Seriously though, I looked up so, so much mythology after getting into this series.
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Mar 17, 2019 22:25
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Does anyone else think "Halloween DJ" when they look at these two or is it just me? I bet they both have some SICK beats.
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Mar 17, 2019 22:30
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sandnavyguy posted:DDS was awesome, I loved my Hindu SMT time How many mythologies has SMT used? And are there any that haven't been used yet?
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Mar 17, 2019 22:41
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Mraagvpeine posted:How many mythologies has SMT used? And are there any that haven't been used yet? Not enough vodou. Someone's Persona should be Baron Samedi.
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Mar 17, 2019 23:05
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sandnavyguy posted:I have a very soft spot for Strange Journey as it was my first ever foray into SMT-land, and was actually the first video game I'd played in years by that point. As awful as it was to slog through a couple of the maps, the law-chaos dichotomy fascinated me. I didn't realize I had a third choice really until I was already locked in to the Law route, but I remember thinking that every character was insane and that both Zelenin and Jimenez were going to straight up kill my rear end so I went with mindless robot rather then getting torn limb from limb by demons. Of course, as soon as my playthrough was over I ordered like 5 SMT/persona games to sate my newly found hunger for demons SJ was also my first MegaTen game and I also was on the Law Route. I was so Law that when Gore is supposed to give you questions to try and change your alignment, he just said DIE DOG OF YHVH instead. I got into it precisely because the Law vs. Chaos stuff interested me so much. It still does hence why I finally sat down and played the Devil Survivor games. And I'm glad because they're both really good. I think after I'm done with DS2 I might finally play SJ Redux myself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jm0WlKRR3YU Still my favorite normal boss theme in SMT. So many...well, I guess you could call them fond memories of dying against Ouroboros and Gore. edit: 
NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Mar 17, 2019 |
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Mar 17, 2019 23:36
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Devil Survivor 1 was my first game after SJ since they were both on the same shelf at the store on base, and oddly there was only like three other NDS games in the store. So I basically started it up right after I beat the first one and went hog wild. It was my first ever tactics game, and I love the genre now, so I ended up playing through 4 routes before Persona finally arrived. I definitely agree with people that the Law route in DS1 is one of the best in the SMT series, but I liked the "Human's Rock" neutral one better myself. I haven't played DS 2 yet, don't know why I haven't gotten around to it but I'd have to dig up my 3ds from somewhere.
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Mar 17, 2019 23:56
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Funky Valentine posted:Not enough vodou. Someone's Persona should be Baron Samedi. And Ogoun Feraille.
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Mar 18, 2019 00:07
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the DeSu2 anime was doing a lot of work to ship the MC x Yamato iirc. Like it's in the game to some degree but the anime was really into those two
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Mar 18, 2019 00:10
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And then the Triangulum arc happens! 
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Mar 18, 2019 00:23
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Expect My Mom posted:the DeSu2 anime was doing a lot of work to ship the MC x Yamato iirc. Like it's in the game to some degree but the anime was really into those two The anime did it to such an extreme it just unceremoniously kills off like half the cast before the 5th day just so it doesn't have to waste time on characters not named Hibiki or Yamato.
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Mar 18, 2019 00:29
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That seems pretty ridiculous to me, if you wanted to lean into a grimdark story then DS 1 was right there. If you wanted more ensemble cast with wacky antics, that's when you go for DS 2.
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Mar 18, 2019 00:37
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