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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I dunno, in a way I could see the events of DS9 helping to stabilize the Empire. I don't think replacing Gowron with a more competent and less corrupt leader really fixes the problems plaguing the Klingon government. Martok may be cool, but most of the other members of the high council as of the end of DS9 are probably the same people who agreed to cover up Duras's crimes back in TNG S3. The problem with the Klingons' government is that it's autocratic and breeds a culture of intrigue that runs totally counter to the Klingons' stated honorable values, and having the lead guy be someone who's actually honorable is probably not enough to fix that.
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Mar 18, 2019 00:21
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" but last I checked this was Star Trek and not Warhammer 40,000.
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The differences between Klingons and Feds are still far too great for Klingons to be buddy-buddy with them forever. Their society is based on rule by which warlord can swing the most dick at other warlords. They don't believe in the rule of law, you can freaking kill the boss of all Klingons and get to take his place as long as you do it openly. Martok might have enough respect that he can rule effectively, but how about the guy who comes after him? I don't know if I'd expect balkanizing per se, but at the very least I would expect a scrap over the succession because you know, that's what's happened with EVERY transition of power in the empire in the entire franchise.
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Mar 18, 2019 00:24
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Pakled posted:I don't think replacing Gowron with a more competent and less corrupt leader really fixes the problems plaguing the Klingon government. Martok may be cool, but most of the other members of the high council as of the end of DS9 are probably the same people who agreed to cover up Duras's crimes back in TNG S3. The problem with the Klingons' government is that it's autocratic and breeds a culture of intrigue that runs totally counter to the Klingons' stated honorable values, and having the lead guy be someone who's actually honorable is probably not enough to fix that. My read on why I think the Klingon Empire would collapse is that I think Martok is a genuinely honorable man - and the Klingon Empire at its bones is not honorable. It's a feudal society, and Martok is the kind of man who'd probably try very hard to reform the Klingon Empire. I'm skeptical that he'd succeed, with how entrenched Klingon politics and feudal government are. While I love Martok as a character, I think as ruler of the Empire he'd likely end up assassinated, or at least dealing with outright rebellion in the Empire. Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I mean yeah you could go from there and write it as "in the 24th/25th century there is ONLY WAR I see the Klingon Empire as fundamentally unstable. Discovery got that much right, at least: in the absence of an external enemy, the Klingons tend to turn on each other. The Dominion War was a great external enemy for the Klingons to focus on, sure. But the question then becomes: what next? What happens with the next generation of Klingon warriors and leaders who are spoiling for a fight because that's what Klingon culture and society is dedicated to producing? I think Martok would either need to find an enemy for the Klingons, or the Klingon Empire would turn on itself. Now sure, there's plenty of enemies they might find. Gowron was riding high pretty well with his victories in the war with the Cardassians. But who would Martok pick as an enemy? The Tholians? Whatever's left of the Romulans? The Tzenkethi? The Breen? The Cardassians again, if they haven't been absorbed by the Federation by that point? Martok's canny enough to realize all of this, and the Federation would then find itself with a Klingon Empire spoiling for a fight and more than likely starting a war with some convenient nearby galactic power. And this would probably break off the Federation-Klingon alliance again, just like what happened when the Klingons invaded the Cardassians. The alternative is Martok trying to resist and reform that recurring pattern in Klingon society, and that alternative by all accounts is civil war in the Klingon Empire. Unless there's a sea change in Klingon culture, I just can't see the Klingons of the 25th century going any other way. Either picking a fight with another race and losing their alliance with the Federation, or civil war.
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Mar 18, 2019 00:44
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I would be happy to hear that Disco is getting better (or is it people just still liking it?). I watched it with a friend while moving him into an apartment, and the nipple-clamped tardigrade and neon deck party scenes were the biggest turn offs/most memorable things but not for good reasons. Obviously I hated the more ENT-like ship design and interior, but it wasn’t a deal breaker. I just felt like I was watching “24: Star Trekking” from FX or something. I am aware that my complaints are probably like two years out of date at this point.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:25
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I’ve watched basically all of 24 ever (minus a bit of that attempted reboot) and it’s never as dark as that show. Disco is a lot better this season than last but it still has issues. Adding Pike was a smart move.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:43
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Seconding that season two is a massive improvement. Whereas the first season really didn’t know what it wanted to be, it’s finally settled into a charmingly goofy, enjoyable groove, with mostly successful emotional beats.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:46
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Disco has improved from season 1 and in some ways, it is moving in the right direction. But it still has a really long way to go to get good. They have had the balls to do what Voyager and Enterprise didn’t do, and make sweeping changes to aspects of the show that don’t work. You can’t fault them for that, they’re clearly under fewer illusions about the quality of the end product than some of their viewers are. But we’re almost two full seasons in and there’s still not really an episode I would ever want to rewatch.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:12
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Yeah there's nothing about Disco that had to be in the past. If you want it to be about a war with the Klingons, congratulations, they're Klingons, you can be at war with them whenever you want. They didn't have to go back to the one war we knew about already.
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Mar 18, 2019 03:18
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but spock tho
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Mar 18, 2019 03:26
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The Spock thing was certainly a dumb gimmick to begin with, but it actually isn't terrible in the event.
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Mar 18, 2019 03:29
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lol but seriously I posted:but spock tho Shows a fundamental insecurity. They thought they needed more of a hook than crazy mirror universe mushroom highway. This pitch ended with "And maybe some of of our favorite Star Trek friends will drop in!"
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Mar 18, 2019 03:32
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Disco has the best representation, and the best effects (from a technical standpoint). However, if Disco ended now, it would be worst trek. It has the time and capability not to be, and I hope it happens.
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Mar 18, 2019 03:33
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skasion posted:Disco has improved from season 1 and in some ways, it is moving in the right direction. But it still has a really long way to go to get good. They have had the balls to do what Voyager and Enterprise didn’t do, and make sweeping changes to aspects of the show that don’t work. You can’t fault them for that, they’re clearly under fewer illusions about the quality of the end product than some of their viewers are. But we’re almost two full seasons in and there’s still not really an episode I would ever want to rewatch. Hey that’s cool. Being willing to make changes is all you can really do with criticism or feedback without tossing out baby and bathwater. I identify with not wanting to really watch season 1 again but this makes me feel more like keeping up on it going forward. TNG (my favorite) had to grow a lot too, maybe in my opinion not as much, but still.
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Mar 18, 2019 03:40
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DISCO is now star trek doing an impression of a prestige drama doing an impression of star trek
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Mar 18, 2019 03:54
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A lot of non-federation/semi-federation cultures feel like caricatures of humanity's past. The Klingon obsession with honor could be an attempt to make sense of and bring some semblance of order to their feudal system (and possibly their "savage" nature), which is what a lot of people seem to think religion does or did for humans. And, just like religion, those systems too are flawed and corruptible, which is why you end up with such an exploitable and inconsistent application of honor in episodes featuring klingons. When you bring Kahless into it the analogy becomes even more apparent. Or, you know, klingons have always been badly written and any time they show up after TOS is an inconsistent mess that makes no sense, but that's not a take I want to ascribe to since I like the TNG/DS9 klingons so much. thotsky fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 04:12
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thotsky posted:A lot of non-federation/semi-federation cultures feel like caricatures of humanity's past. The Klingon obsession with honor could be an attempt to make sense of and bring some semblance of order to their feudal system (and possibly their "savage" nature), which is what a lot of people seem to think religion does or did for humans. And, just like religion, those systems too are flawed and corruptible, which is why you end up with such an exploitable and inconsistent application of honor in episodes featuring klingons. When you bring Kahless into it the analogy becomes even more apparent. The Klingons are a dead ringer for feudal Japan more than anything, ignore the Viking aesthetic. A civilization with a society built around 'honor' that's filled with intrigue, stabbing, and generally being nothing resembling honor even as everyone pays lip service to it.
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Mar 18, 2019 04:18
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Um actually Martok can make the world genuinely better you dire gently caress nuts
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Mar 18, 2019 04:29
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I find TNG Klingons just kind of tiresome. For all that TOS Klingons were just stand ins for the Soviet Union, I kind of prefer them.
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Mar 18, 2019 05:15
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Pick posted:Um actually Martok can make the world genuinely better you dire gently caress nuts Yeah I can't help but feel like "well actually Klingon society cannot change for the better and will inevitably make war against its neighbors" is kind of taking Admiral Cartwright's side.
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Mar 18, 2019 06:22
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Yeah I can't help but feel like "well actually Klingon society cannot change for the better and will inevitably make war against its neighbors" is kind of taking Admiral Cartwright's side. Agreed, and that mindset is yet another sign of the times imo. "Actually the Federation is anything but a post-capitalist utopia here watch my five part Youtube series on how we can embrace the Federation's AnCap future" "Klingons are just too warlike and to different from us enlightened humans to ever embrace peace, also did you know they have an extra tendon in their calves that lets them run faster, like/subscribe below" "Is the Grand Nagus actually RIGHT? 8 reasons why females should be forced to go nude! Feminists HATE this!"
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Mar 18, 2019 08:06
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I don't think anyone's saying that, just that their overall society isn't going to change just because there's a different man at the top. Martok can't achieve real social change unless there's a genuine desire for change among the broader population, and we've seen no sign of that.
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Mar 18, 2019 08:28
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I mean we’re shown countless times across 4 different shows that Klingons don’t handle peace very well, including a feature length movie where the villain’s main goal is to disrupt a peace conference because he feels his generation has to wage war to be relevant, but you do you I guess. Thinking the Empire is destined to wage endless war and reject lasting peace isn’t some “sign of the times” sentiment, it’s what we’ve been told about them in every piece of media for the last 30 years. It’s literally an Ezri monologue in DS9. Martok isn’t going to change poo poo, he’s just going to be assassinated at the first opportunity.
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Mar 18, 2019 08:29
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I mean, the counterpoint to that is the Klingons having been allies of the Federation for nearly thirty years up until Gowron (via Founder interference) broke the Khitomer Accords. And even when they weren't outright allies, there was still general peace (in a Cold War way) between them and the Federation for like 60 years before that.Big Mean Jerk posted:including a feature length movie where the villain’s main goal is to disrupt a peace conference because he feels his generation has to wage war to be relevant, but you do you I guess. This is a bad argument, as Gorkon goes just as strongly in the other direction as Chang; to say nothing of Chang's co-conspirators also including two humans, a Vulcan, and a Romulan. The entire point of the movie is that the Klingons are capable of sustained peace despite their culture that values conflict, and that the biggest obstacle to that peace isn't overcoming a culture's inherent nature, it's fighting against hardline elements on all sides who benefit from the status quo. Drone fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 08:35
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It was a thing in Enterprise that Klingon culture wasn't always this warlike, it's a result of the warrior caste bullying their way into power and likely rewriting history to elevate their own importance. (as basically happened in real life, while we're going with Imperial Japan references) It changed once, it can change back.
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Mar 18, 2019 09:14
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Cythereal posted:The Klingons are a dead ringer for feudal Japan more than anything, ignore the Viking aesthetic. A civilization with a society built around 'honor' that's filled with intrigue, stabbing, and generally being nothing resembling honor even as everyone pays lip service to it. Yea, the first episode the "new" Klingons star in during TNG they come across very much like Samurai, particularly those characters. I'd absolutely agree that stopping discovery being a prequel would make it fit a lot better for me. And they'd have fewer stupid scenes like when Ash/Voq is telling them they've got a brand new Klingon ship design and it's just a bird of prey.
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Mar 18, 2019 12:37
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Angry Salami posted:I don't think anyone's saying that, just that their overall society isn't going to change just because there's a different man at the top. Martok can't achieve real social change unless there's a genuine desire for change among the broader population, and we've seen no sign of that. The original context for this discussion is also me explaining why I'd accept Discovery more readily if it was a sequel rather than a prequel - Martok's efforts at reform ending in the balkanization of the Klingon Empire would ring true to me. That being said, we know from Enterprise (via Daniels) that by the 26th century the Klingons have joined the Federation. One scenario that strikes me as plausible for that to happen is the Federation absorbing piece by piece a fragmented Klingon Empire in the power vacuum, and that such a scenario would likely be the kind of thing that might finally break the warrior caste's hold on Klingon society.
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Mar 18, 2019 13:48
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Characters like Grilka and the chef also existed to show there were further and more varied dimensions to Klingons and their society but I GUESS the real take away from Star Trek is we have to send warships into space to pew pew the bad guys
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Mar 18, 2019 14:35
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Regime change by force at the prompting of foreign nationals doesn’t change societies for the better
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Mar 18, 2019 14:51
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Martok had already worked his way up to being a legitimate choice.
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Mar 18, 2019 14:57
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skasion posted:Regime change by force at the prompting of foreign nationals doesn’t change societies for the better Oh, word?
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Mar 18, 2019 14:58
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Pick posted:Martok had already worked his way up to being a legitimate choice.
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Mar 18, 2019 15:02
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Pick posted:Characters like Grilka and the chef also existed to show there were further and more varied dimensions to Klingons and their society but I GUESS the real take away from Star Trek is we have to send warships into space to pew pew the bad guys
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Mar 18, 2019 15:28
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Yeah I can't help but feel like "well actually Klingon society cannot change for the better and will inevitably make war against its neighbors" is kind of taking Admiral Cartwright's side. Let's bring them to their knees, then we'll be in a far better position to
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Mar 18, 2019 15:29
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thotsky posted:Why would anyone watch the show beyond the, in your words, "awful" season 1? While I find this possibility interesting, we're getting really granular here against "Money doesn't exist in the 24th century." Not "We don't need money most of the time," or "We pretend to not have unlimited money/resources to appease other less advanced humans (ultimately everyone in ST is a human)," it just doesn't exist. Until it does. Under First Contact Picard Rules, he clearly means that if you join Starfleet you join it because you want to, not because it has the best retirement and health benefits. If you don't join Starfleet, you can spend your time doing pretty much whatever, because your everyday problems are accounted for. The concept of a post-scarcity society is actually challenging to get across to an audience of capitalist plebs, and the combined forces of Star Trek going through trends just like any other show and the enormous variety of writers means that someone eventually just bridges the gap by going "OK they need money to do plot thing," without grappling with what that really means because Star Trek is not hard scifi. We don't get to simple things like "Well, we pay Quark money, as a joke" or "Why is the ship equipped with a public access VR room that can create or kill living things on its highest settings?" It's not that I prefer it this way, it's just how Star Trek is clearly written. It's a fairly simplistic show most of the time, which is OK because it turns out layered stuff can go over general audiences' heads. We can trust Picard's words unless the plot clearly screams "We can't trust Picard's words."
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Mar 18, 2019 17:36
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Big Mean Jerk posted:I mean we’re shown countless times across 4 different shows that Klingons don’t handle peace very well, including a feature length movie where the villain’s main goal is to disrupt a peace conference because he feels his generation has to wage war to be relevant, but you do you I guess. The central premise of Star Trek is that societies evolve. The problem with Star Trek TV as of late is that it doesn't evolve. I mean, do we really need to discuss what eventually became of feudal Japan? Name Change fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Mar 18, 2019 |
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Mar 18, 2019 17:41
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What, they evolve backwards? Picard et al is 100 years after Discovery. Maybe Federation society changed a bit? You know, evolved?
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Mar 18, 2019 17:44
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How beige is the future we will see in the Picard show? Will the starships have carpets again?
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Mar 18, 2019 18:46
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marktheando posted:How beige is the future we will see in the Picard show? Will the starships have carpets again? Everything will be plush. Even the exploding consoles.
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Mar 18, 2019 18:53
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marktheando posted:How beige is the future we will see in the Picard show? Will the starships have carpets again? The first teaser will be nothing but a slow pan over some LCARS screens while ominous music plays, all nerds will poo poo their pants
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Mar 18, 2019 18:57
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The exact same people who have been making Discovery are making that show. So everything is going to be a hologram. Even Picard's bulging movie muscles. Especially those.
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Mar 18, 2019 18:58
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