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Farg posted:elector thanks for joining our campaign you seem like a fun dude and your character concept is cool but your being a little aggro about this, can we talk about that Would you for-real push a player to the point where they say "I'm not having fun with this can we please just roll the dice and skip forward" and then react like that, or is this some extremely funny internet persona thing?
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Mar 20, 2019 02:51
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If there's such a huge disconnect between what people want out of the game, wouldn't it be the right thing to do to not play the game with them? Not all my friends are into WWWRPG, so I don't ask them to play when I run it.
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Mar 20, 2019 02:56
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jesus christ it's been 2 days of this already
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Mar 20, 2019 03:05
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Sadly, that post wasn't enough to let you pass the Persuasion check to get everyone to shut up. 
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Mar 20, 2019 03:15
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Would you for-real push a player to the point where they say "I'm not having fun with this can we please just roll the dice and skip forward" and then react like that, or is this some extremely funny internet persona thing? To be honest, if a player immediately bristled that hard the first time they were asked for more information about their persuasion attempt, I think I'd probably laugh it off and just go with one of the options I provided and then approach them after the game and ask them if they were comfortable with that sort of very light RP. I'd want to make it clear that while other players were definitely getting into the RP with all the discussion and voices and what not, they were not expected to do so if they weren't comfortable. I'd want to let them know that providing info on how their character is attempting something when prompted is something that will continue to come up, and if there was a something in particular that was making them nervous or worried about doing so. If they steadfastly were against doing anything of the sort after some more time to warm up to the group, they probably aren't having a good time considering a good chunk of our sessions can be taken up by people talking and describing actions in character. It might not be a great fit for them if they are totally against describing how they go about talking to someone even if they don't have to roleplay it IC.
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Mar 20, 2019 03:39
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Farg posted:elector thanks for joining our campaign you seem like a fun dude and your character concept is cool but your being a little aggro about this, can we talk about that Heres a extremely common one, 'I've just worked an 8 hour shift and I'm loving exhausted but I want to keep playing this game with these people I like and enjoy their company. I'm a bit checked out here but for 'reasons' im the one taking point here to get past this guard, can I just say what my intent is and lets see what happens cause my character wouldn't have just worked 8 hours dealing with IT support calls and would be on his game here.'
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Mar 20, 2019 03:41
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PublicOpinion posted:If there's such a huge disconnect between what people want out of the game, wouldn't it be the right thing to do to not play the game with them? Not all my friends are into WWWRPG, so I don't ask them to play when I run it. I mean at the end of the day this is going to be the end all be all. It isn't wrong for a table to have little-to-no RP and move through actions in a more abstracted way, nor is it wrong for a table to expect a little more RP buy-in. Ultimately, a player/dm who prefers Table A or Table B in this scenario would likely be unhappy at the other and seek out a different group (ideally), so it isn't like we need to treat this as an ideological war that must be one less the Others invade our games and destroy our way of life.
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Mar 20, 2019 03:44
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"I attempt to persuade" is insufficient in the same way that "I attack" is, because there's no intent, there's no goal, and there's no target. But nobody ever just says "I attempt to persuade". This is 100% a strawman. "I attempt to persuade the guard to let me through" is closer, better, warmer. Arguably, it's still lacking as far as identifying what leverage the player has over the guard, but it does have intent, and a target, and I'd fall more on the side of this statement being passable, than not. "I attempt to persuade the guard to let me through by threatening to bring up their alcoholism to their superior" should be entirely sufficient.
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Mar 20, 2019 03:55
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Kingcom beat me to it, but dude you're not getting it, you're still strawmanning this player who will never ever ever ever engage with that stuff. The player might just not wanna right now. Not "never ever", just this time they either can't or don't feel like engaging solidly with this particular bit of roleplay. Maybe it's something they usually enjoy, maybe their least favorite thing, either way that might be why they made this character to be good at it. But... Because I laboured 8 hours outside today and am physically wrecked Because I'm training for an IRL fight and the gym's kicking my rear end today Because my kid's sick and kept me up for roughly 57 hours so far Because I drove 18 hours in 24 yesterday Because I just got done with my volunteer work and another one of the kids told me a brand new hosed up story and I can't even get my head into the "I need to deceive and manipulate" rp space without getting upset about it Because I'm distracted in general lately because my mum's sick Because my wife is working late and I'm worried about her but didn't want to just not show up Because I have medicated, usually-ok anxiety and it's loving with me real hard today Because I just don't want to do this bit today, ok, and it's none of your fuckin' business why not, Magnifico the Bard is the only one likely to succeed here, and he just simply doesn't have any trouble with this poo poo, so may I please be allowed to pass on this spotlight moment without stranding the whole group? Then can we do the cool part with the tower climb? I've been looking forward to that. Farg posted:Ultimately, a player/dm who prefers Table A or Table B in this scenario would likely be unhappy at the other and seek out a different group (ideally), so it isn't like we need to treat this as an ideological war that must be one less the Others invade our games and destroy our way of life. But that's quite literally what you've been doing with your I just don't get it, why don't they play a computer game instead and agreeing wholeheartedly with a sarcastic then they don't deserve to be playing the game. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Mar 20, 2019 |
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Mar 20, 2019 03:58
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whole lot of projecting going on in this thread
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Mar 20, 2019 04:01
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Besesoth posted:Sadly, that post wasn't enough to let you pass the Persuasion check to get everyone to shut up. If only there was a dice to throw to settle whether or not that Persuasion check was reasonable. Oh wait! https://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm I rolled an 18. What's the modifier for being a goon?
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Mar 20, 2019 04:06
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Besesoth posted:I think you and I have come to an agreement. I'm specifically referring to mastershakeman's "There's a certain baseline to be expected" comment. I'm not ok with a kid playing a high wisdom/int character and saying "my character solves the problems " , I've mentioned several times it's a problem just like charisma scores. But more specifically , the skills associated with those abilities - nature, arcana, etc, aren't real life skills people have so it's ok to have them in game for their character since it's not supplanting roleplaying People know how to persuade, lie, intimidate. If they don't, they wouldn't be able to even communicate and show up at the table. I don't have a problem with someone saying "I'm gonna try to persuade the npc with these ideas, remember I have a high / low charisma score and am dressed like this and of that race and bla bla". I do have a problem with going *rolls* I am now the king because I roll a 20 , just like I would have a problem with trying to solve a combat with a single roll Social skills are a half measure that make things worse. The rolling ends up being a crutch and has absolutely no benefit and actually makes things worse due to the concept of a "party face," instead of saying hey why don't we have the barbarian negotiate with his barbarian tribe , the elf with other elves, and don't let the dwarf sweet talk orcs even if his character sheet says he has the biggest bonus. And that's why DMs should house rule them away. Plus it actually makes martials a more valuable class since they (outside of paladins) aren't usually able to do party face duties if they're using the standard rules I seriously wonder what some of you want to do besides roll dice over and over while being completely silent mastershakeman fucked around with this message at 04:17 on Mar 20, 2019 |
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Mar 20, 2019 04:14
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Do you all just loving stare at the player who's been asked how they do things or what. How the gently caress is your group and/or GM not throwing out some examples of stuff they could do. "I wanna convince the guard to let us through." "Ok, how do you wanna do that?" *pause* "Do you wanna try to bribe him, convince him you're his bud, threaten him...?" This entire conversation is the most pathetic thing imaginable.
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Mar 20, 2019 04:37
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Kingcom beat me to it, but dude you're not getting it, you're still strawmanning this player who will never ever ever ever engage with that stuff. You know these people in real life, right, so they'll get it. Fortunately, there's only one hard and fast rule in D&D, which is that the DM is god. There's no ambiguity in "GTFO with that, I want more RP" or "I'm good with just stating intent" Play however you wanna play. How you want to play is clearly not how a lot of us feel, and you're not gonna convince us. Please stop.
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Mar 20, 2019 04:41
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evol262 posted:You know these people in real life, right, so they'll get it. Yes, ok, you're the god-king of nerds, the dungeon master, and your word is law. But still, even with all your mighty power, you had to cut off the bit of the post that contains the point that you're responding to. A player says Elector_Nerdlingen posted:may I please be allowed to pass on this spotlight moment without stranding the whole group? And I want to know what do you do, oh mighty and powerful boss of all nerds? Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Mar 20, 2019 |
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Mar 20, 2019 04:53
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Dude, if a player literally asks for a scene change because the material is too intense or stressful for him to engage with... that seems like the kind of accommodation that anybody with a shred of empathy would agree with. Likewise saying "I can't see my character finding a way to make this happen" might mean the DM and other players brainstorm a script that moves the story along for you. It's not exactly beginner level DMing, but sometimes a plot/encounter/scene falls flat or gets bogged down. An experienced DM recognizes when he's got to change gears and get things moving, and hopefully does just that.
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Mar 20, 2019 05:34
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ProfessorCirno posted:Do you all just loving stare at the player who's been asked how they do things or what. How the gently caress is your group and/or GM not throwing out some examples of stuff they could do. Or to over emphasize this, there are a lot of game systems that actively encourage you to roll first then work out what you said and how you said it AFTER you determine if you succeeded or fail and its perfectly reasonable to do so in D&D. evol262 posted:Fortunately, there's only one hard and fast rule in D&D, which is that the DM is god. There's no ambiguity in "GTFO with that, I want more RP" or "I'm good with just stating intent" lmao. I'm a forever GM and get the gently caress out here with that nonsense.
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Mar 20, 2019 05:41
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evol262 posted:Fortunately, there's only one hard and fast rule in D&D, which is that the DM is god. Thou must driveth me to Taco Bell, for I am the unconquered Brandon from your physics lab! Look ye upon my DM screen and despair!
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Mar 20, 2019 05:48
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evol262 posted:Fortunately, there's only one hard and fast rule in D&D, which is that the DM is god." 
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Mar 20, 2019 05:52
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https://twitter.com/tmorello/status/1107044869321572352?s=21
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Mar 20, 2019 05:55
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I'm somehow not surprised that this thread manages to dispute "the DM decides the rules in their campaign" Let's have a 10 page debate about it
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Mar 20, 2019 05:57
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theironjef posted:Thou must driveth me to Taco Bell, for I am the unconquered Brandon from your physics lab! Look ye upon my DM screen and despair!
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Mar 20, 2019 06:00
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evol262 posted:I'm somehow not surprised that this thread manages to dispute "the DM decides the rules in their campaign" I just want to discuss proper tithes to the church of Brandon. There's gotta be a reason we're calling him God and not just "The guy running this game." Perhaps he's huffed enough of his own farts to forget that games aren't weird dictatorships and one of the players is going to throw a taco at him if he keeps acting like they are? NGDBSS posted:Weren't you also the guy who said that "no subsystem should be less abstract than combat"? I always feel like that's good advice for whenever people get too fussy about needing description before any attempt at rolling/other resolution. Yep. I've seen the dumbass debate enough times to skip over it, but basically that's my thought on the matter, coupled with a belief that all the stats on a character sheet need equal verisimilitude. If you can imagine your character doing a strong thing, you should be able to imagine them doing a smart thing. No one ever asks a player to lift a fridge over their head to prove they can bend bars. theironjef fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Mar 20, 2019 |
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Mar 20, 2019 06:01
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evol262 posted:I'm somehow not surprised that this thread manages to dispute "the DM decides the rules in their campaign" Changes to rules should be a group-wide collaboration, hth.
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Mar 20, 2019 06:08
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evol262 posted:I'm somehow not surprised that this thread manages to dispute "the DM decides the rules in their campaign" lol, is this hell timeline infecting this thread now? This is a group activity and everyone should be involved and have input in making group decisions hth.
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Mar 20, 2019 06:13
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NGDBSS posted:Weren't you also the guy who said that "no subsystem should be less abstract than combat"? No, because I only started reading this thread yesterday, and now I wish I wouldn't have, since it's apparently populated by extremely literal grognards who can take extremely uncontroversial statements like "the DM makes the rules" (in the context of "rolling for social skills is not sufficient for my playgroup" or "firearms are not allowed here" or "classes/races from these sourcebooks only") to mean that I believe the DM has the purview to alter the fundamental rules of the game on the fly, rather than setting expectations at session zero
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Mar 20, 2019 11:02
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evol262 posted:No, because I only started reading this thread yesterday, and now I wish I wouldn't have, since it's apparently populated by extremely literal grognards who can take extremely uncontroversial statements like "the DM makes the rules" (in the context of "rolling for social skills is not sufficient for my playgroup" or "firearms are not allowed here" or "classes/races from these sourcebooks only") to mean that I believe the DM has the purview to alter the fundamental rules of the game on the fly, rather than setting expectations at session zero lol
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Mar 20, 2019 11:25
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wait why is the 3.5 MM there
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Mar 20, 2019 13:46
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Probably just to fill the photo.
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Mar 20, 2019 13:51
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ProfessorCirno posted:Do you all just loving stare at the player who's been asked how they do things or what. How the gently caress is your group and/or GM not throwing out some examples of stuff they could do. That quickly turns into quarterbacking other players
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Mar 20, 2019 13:52
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Stroop There It Is posted:wait why is the 3.5 MM there Tom Morello doesn't play by the rules. *sick guitar riff*
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Mar 20, 2019 13:57
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mastershakeman posted:That quickly turns into quarterbacking other players Or it's a 100% normal conversation prompt which is better than "ok, how?" because it gives the player something to start off of if they're uncomfortable/stuck
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Mar 20, 2019 14:08
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Then can we do the cool part with the tower climb? I've been looking forward to that. Which side of the tower and which window do you want to.. I don't loving care about that bullshit I just want to roll a die and get into the tower! OK you're now on *rolls* the fourth floor in the *rolls* uh the guard house, roll for initiative. Why did you put me in there??? That's clearly not where I want to be?!? *leaves*
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Mar 20, 2019 14:33
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gradenko_2000 posted:"I attempt to persuade" is insufficient in the same way that "I attack" is, because there's no intent, there's no goal, and there's no target. This is a reasonable and sensible approach to take and I don't know why everyone is ignoring it.
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Mar 20, 2019 14:51
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mastershakeman posted:I'm not ok with a kid playing a high wisdom/int character and saying "my character solves the problems " , I've mentioned several times it's a problem just like charisma scores. Like I told Farg, this is a position that you have made up out of whole cloth. Nobody is arguing that this should be how it works. You've invented a straw man to argue against and are now passionately insisting that everyone arguing with you holds that straw man's beliefs. Until you can discuss this without being dishonest about the other viewpoint, I think we're (or at least I'm) done here. SneezeOfTheDecade fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Mar 20, 2019 |
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Mar 20, 2019 14:55
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Besesoth posted:Like I told Farg, this is a position that you have made up out of whole cloth. Nobody is arguing that this should be how it works. You've invented a straw man to argue against and are now passionately insisting that everyone arguing with you holds that straw man's beliefs. I mean, then what is your viewpoint? I don't think anyone is arguing that roleplay should be required. I think the difference in opinion is if asking "how do you go about persuading the guard" is unreasonable. If someone was extremely uncomfortable doing even that I'd be happy to assist them or just handwave past it but I also can't imagine someone who can't handle that but can handle the other decision making points in a game
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Mar 20, 2019 15:06
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tbh have any of you actually played DnD with a group of people cuz this whole conversation seems like that answer is a no mechanically speaking the rules do not require much of anything because it's a simple manner of conflict resolution, can I do this let's see etc. that's always been the case. how you get there and how you play it out is up to you. but if you just use the conflict resolution then you're going to have a very wooden game and, for that matter, probably aren't going to be using social mechanics and just combat/trap dungeoning it up
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Mar 20, 2019 15:12
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Gamerofthegame posted:tbh have any of you actually played DnD with a group of people cuz this whole conversation seems like that answer is a no yeah to be honest I've never encountered someone who played anything like that, it seems more of an excercise in managing a theoretical player than anything
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Mar 20, 2019 15:16
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gradenko_2000 posted:"I attempt to persuade" is insufficient in the same way that "I attack" is, because there's no intent, there's no goal, and there's no target.
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Mar 20, 2019 15:20
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Gamerofthegame posted:tbh have any of you actually played DnD with a group of people cuz this whole conversation seems like that answer is a no I didn't know this was a Debate & Discussion thread!! (I'm sure I'm the first one to make that joke)
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Mar 20, 2019 15:41
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