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WhatEvil posted:Lol no it won't, it'll be the fault of immigrants and there'll probably be a new war somewhere as a distraction. Gort posted:No, it will be a time to make tough choices on how much to accelerate the deaths of the poor Which of these wins out is signficiantly affected by who's in power, and it's not looking like the tories are going to be in power much longer either way. Crises are necessary parts of left wing progression, they are when we can make gains. Plus it's not like we've got a labour party leader with Views about the last financial collapse. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Mar 22, 2019 |
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Mar 22, 2019 21:49
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Jose posted:I missed this if anyone posted it but it's a very good behind the scenes of people's vote https://twitter.com/wariotifo/status/1058834041095503873
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Mar 22, 2019 21:50
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kustomkarkommando posted:The deal in question is the withdrawal agreement I'm pretty sure, which has very little to say about the future relationship with the EU bar "we will agree that later" - it's not designed to slowly lower the UK towards a free trade agreement but to set the terms of the transitional period to allow those negotiations (you could make a point such a transition period would not have been necessary if we had speedily concluded a withdrawal agreement and progressed to future relationship talks before the article 50 window closed but that's pretty moot now) and what will happen if the EU and UK can not agree a future relationship. Eh, I feel like if the future relationship were completely separate we wouldn't have so much opposition to May's "deal" - the WA doesn't just set out neutral terms for separating from the EU with a transition period for whatever future relationship is agreed, it at least defines a shape for that relationship and sets everyone on a course to wind things down, start implementing new procedures, setting up new agencies etc. The backstop is the most explicit part of that shape, but other stuff fits with the terms outlined in the future relationship's political declaration It's just hard for me to see how that "deal" is really compatible with single-market access (and everything that entails) except as a template to rip the substance out of. I guess what you're saying is it would be a completely different thing everyone was voting on, but we'd be keeping the bit that says "here's the fallback for NI and also there's a transition period if we need it" which would always be there in some form no matter what they were voting on? And that bit is what they're calling "May's deal" Like if we were going for customs union + single market, would we even need a backstop? That's... pretty much what customs union + single market is, and the EU only seems to have had a problem with the "UK-wide backstop" idea because May was trying to cherry pick access and make it time-limited. If we want full access and commitment, without a time limit... then we'd be fine with that as a backstop, and if that backstop is what we want anyway... not sure there'd be a lot left of the current WA and future relationship documents if we did that, is what I mean
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Mar 22, 2019 22:02
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baka kaba posted:Like if we were going for customs union + single market, would we even need a backstop? Well yeah the backstop is about avoiding a hard border in Ireland and if there's a customs union then there's no need for one is there? Free movement is the other thing I guess but then there was always gonna have to be free movement between I+NI otherwise that violates the GFA doesn't it?
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Mar 22, 2019 22:07
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I'm not sure at this stage the EU will be happy with an agreement where the UK stays in a customs union without a conditional agreement on what would happen if the UK unilaterial decides to leave such a union considering our track record and parliament's changing fancy... Domestic legislation might not be able o bind a parliament but an international agreement in principle can. The mumbles out of the EC was that if the UK was interested in changing tack to a customs union then they would be willing to backtrack to an NI specific backstop, which was always their original preferred offer
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Mar 22, 2019 22:22
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/politicshome/status/1109152767371890691 This is literally the Kyle/Wilson amendment. What is your problem?
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Mar 22, 2019 22:25
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Tom Watson is the problem.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:26
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kustomkarkommando posted:I'm not sure at this stage the EU will be happy with an agreement where the UK stays in a customs union without a conditional agreement on what would happen if the UK unilaterial decides to leave such a union considering our track record and parliament's changing fancy... A few miles down the road when May isn't relying on the DUP, no one will give a poo poo about the Irish border problem and will happily accept a border at sea between NI and the rest of the UK.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:27
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OwlFancier posted:Tom Watson is the problem. I thought you didnt believe in celebrities?
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Mar 22, 2019 22:27
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I don't he's just a knob.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:28
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V. Illych L. posted:frankly, this situation has been a long way coming Hmm, do you mean "defecting"? Regardless I don't quite follow, can you elaborate
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Mar 22, 2019 22:28
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Defecating.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:29
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So what is the issue with Tom Watson on general? I have not followed his escapades, but I thought he used to be fairly well regarded.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:34
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NotJustANumber99 posted:A few miles down the road when May isn't relying on the DUP, no one will give a poo poo about the Irish border problem and will happily accept a border at sea between NI and the rest of the UK. No one? Not even you? While you're eating whatever America decides to sell us and whatever we get via Lichtenstein? You don't mind that part of the UK still gets access to the single market but for some reason you don't?
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Mar 22, 2019 22:35
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happyhippy posted:Uri is so sue happy these days himself if you mention it. I have a fantastic story about that but because of that there's no loving way I'm ever telling it on the public internet, so someone remind me once Geller dies (or if I ever bother turning up for a goonmeet).
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Mar 22, 2019 22:35
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Right but I mean if our new approach was to aim for the softest brexit possible (which would include free movement anyway), and the EU didn't reject that outright, there wouldn't be a lot to discuss. In that case our preferred backstop would basically be the deal we want anyway If it comes down to a sticking point about the UK being able to unilaterally nope out in the future and what happens to NI in that situation... Well that's where we are right now in our current status as an EU member. Doesn't seem too weird to BRINO and replicate Article 50 in our agreement with the EU. Doesn't solve the issue for the future but it doesn't change anything right now either
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Mar 22, 2019 22:35
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NotJustANumber99 posted:A few miles down the road when May isn't relying on the DUP, no one will give a poo poo about the Irish border problem and will happily accept a border at sea between NI and the rest of the UK. Labour at the time also said it was unacceptable
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Mar 22, 2019 22:36
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I have a fantastic story about that but because of that there's no loving way I'm ever telling it on the public internet, so someone remind me once Geller dies (or if I ever bother turning up for a goonmeet). I'm going to go to the Isle of Dogs and flag down every motorcyclist who looks like they know way too much about telecommunications infrastructure
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Mar 22, 2019 22:38
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I think a Deal(of some kind) vs remain referedum is the best way to put the issue to rest, since it forces people to see defended the EU vs whatever is negotiated, and for a general realization that [X] deal is worse than remaining.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:41
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fatelvis posted:So what is the issue with Tom Watson on general? He opposes Corbyn and there's talks of him trying to work with others to form a new centrist party. IMO pick a good time and throw your career in the bin with the other new centrist parties.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:43
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https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/134359094411796480
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Mar 22, 2019 22:43
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fatelvis posted:So what is the issue with Tom Watson on general? He's a backstabbing piece of poo poo who's spent far more time trying to undermine Corbyn than doing anything of value.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:44
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fatelvis posted:So what is the issue with Tom Watson on general? Watson is a Blairite who delved into the shadows to make sure Blair stood down as PM. He is the person who dragged the Murdoch liches into He won an internal election for a post most people considered a side-show (if they considered it at all) by the time it concluded who had an acceptance speech longer than the person who won election as Leader. TLDR: Tom Watson considers himself the moral arbiter of Labour and also appears to consider Labour members to be the ones spoiling his personal grand strategy game
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Mar 22, 2019 22:45
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May is Wheatley in this analogy, right? "I! AM NOT! A MORON!"
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Mar 22, 2019 22:46
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Sulphagnist posted:I've been thinking about No Deal Brexit and the narrative of what a horrible thing it will be. This is the point I've been making, although maybe without enough force, for a while now. They will ensure that medication for the most media-friendly diseases gets through, along with enough food that nobody *with disposable income* is in trouble, and exactly like the 150k excess deaths they've already caused, it will be written off as lefty whinging about the Tough Decisions and Noble Sacrifices they had to make. Waitrose were out of extra-virgin olive oil but we made do with some old virgin oil they had at M&S, bootstraps bootstraps why don't the poor cook more? Within 5 years folk memory and the sheer crushing force of soft propaganda will have painted it as our new Finest Hour, and the fact that every structure larger than a molehill is now owned by a web of brass-plate companies and your rent is 99% of your income from your 120-hour job stirring battery acid with your bare hands will be lauded as proof that Global Britain is Open For Business!
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Mar 22, 2019 22:46
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goddamnedtwisto posted:I have a fantastic story about that but because of that there's no loving way I'm ever telling it on the public internet, so someone remind me once Geller dies (or if I ever bother turning up for a goonmeet). If you have any purely fictional stories about Rory Mellor, the fork bender with the famously small penis otoh, I'd love to hear them.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:47
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What kind of reprobate plays portal 2 on the xbox?
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Mar 22, 2019 22:47
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Party Boat posted:I'm going to go to the Isle of Dogs and flag down every motorcyclist who looks like they know way too much about telecommunications infrastructure Jokes on you, that's most of them.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:50
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jaete posted:Hmm, do you mean "defecting"? Regardless I don't quite follow, can you elaborate nah it's jargon, sorry in prisoner's dilemma, you have a situation analogous to two guys having collaborated in a crime or w/e they've been caught by the police, and are each offered to rat the other out. however, if both keep mum the police haven't actually got much on them, so the basic situation is something like: we both shut up: 1 year each i rat you out, you keep mum:3 years for you, i go free you rat me out, say nothing: 3 years for me, you're free we both rat each other out: 2 years for both of us in this situation, no matter what i do, it's better for you to talk. it's the same for me. so, the theory goes, a self-interested actor will always talk - even though this apparently rational behaviour leads to a worse outcome for everyone involved (you and me, obviously, the prosecution's happy but they don't count). deficiting means breaking the compact, basically loving over the other player and taking the gain wffectively the way this usually works in reality is that we play this basic game over and over and over and establish trust that we won't play silly buggers. this is what leads to e.g. good-faith conversations. if people systematically avoid deficiting, everyone's better off, so we try to coordinate our society to that end (except that we fundamentally don't, anymore - another huge problem of late-stage capitalism is the systematic erosion of this sort of structure to our relations in the name of short-term profit and the sacrifice of long-term relationships in favour of efficient allocation of labour). a huge amount of contemporary microeconomic and behavioural theory is based on this sort of interaction game when someone starts rocking the boat, though, you will eventually want to respond. may has been rocking the boat a lot, and one can argue that cameron did the same thing in calling the bloody referendum in the first place. basically, may has taken every shred of goodwill offered to her and subverted it to her own purposes without ever giving any back, and this has been done in a very obvious manner. when she then tries to blame other people for not showing good-will, even the notoriously Wrong british public realises that this is entirely unreasonable reverting this was pretty much corbyn's "kinder politics" initiative, but the other lot were more interested in the short-term victories (and making him look stupid and naïve) than improving the long-term outcome of the game
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Mar 22, 2019 22:57
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Oh man the Times sure did a cartoon today. Cloud Potato posted:
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Mar 22, 2019 22:58
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OwlFancier posted:What kind of reprobate plays portal 2 on the xbox? I played it on PS3. Half Life 2 as well. No regrets.
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Mar 22, 2019 22:58
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Jokes on you, that's most of them. I'll also have Bradley from S Club as a lure
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Mar 22, 2019 22:59
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kingturnip posted:Watson is a Blairite who delved into the shadows to make sure Blair stood down as PM. brownite; it's a non-trivial distinction
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Mar 22, 2019 23:01
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Necrothatcher posted:I played it on PS3. Half Life 2 as well. No regrets. i played half life 2 on the original xbox Was still a great game
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Mar 22, 2019 23:04
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Party Boat posted:I'll also have Bradley from S Club as a lure He'd never betray me.
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Mar 22, 2019 23:05
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I never knew the S Club Party was a political party.
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Mar 22, 2019 23:06
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Okay I've just had the most galaxy-brained idea of my entire life. What if second referendum *and* general election at the same time? Take Brexit out of the GE equation altogether.
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Mar 22, 2019 23:08
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That'd be one hell of a shared ballot initiative.
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Mar 22, 2019 23:09
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Failed Imagineer posted:Post-hardcore. Bands using some of the dynamics/timbre/aesthetics of hardcore without necessarily adhering to the song structure or common lyrical themes What I love about post-hardcore is it allows me to admit to listening to emo while insisting I'm not, I'm just listening to post-hardcore, clearly that's different. (Though obviously this doesn't work with My Chemical Romance & Fall Out Boy & Dashboard Confessional & all that side of emo, much more so the stuff like Embrace & Jawbreaker & Braid & Sunny Day Real Estate & Heroin etc) V. Illych L. posted:brownite; it's a non-trivial distinction I mean it kind of is at this point. It's 9 years since either of them was leader of the party and they've both basically hosed off to irrelevance as far as the modern Labour Party goes. Besides, the Blair/Brown split was always far more personal ego than it was ideological.
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Mar 22, 2019 23:09
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I vote UKIP and remain.
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Mar 22, 2019 23:09
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