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V. Illych L. posted:it does bear mentioning that scotsmen are hardly underrepresented in the top echelons of the major parties, with two out of the last four prime ministers being among them and the likely contender for next tory leader as well as a relatively recent previous leader being from scotland. the SNP chokehold of scottish politics is ironically probably going to make this a lot worse, though You're right of course. Though it's significant that of all of them only Brown was actually a Scottish MP. Also I think worth noting that of Blair, Brown and Gove, only one of them was a graduate of a Scottish university (coincidentally also the only one of the trio not to go to a fee-paying school!). Honestly, I never even realised Blair was born and educated in Scotland after he'd stepped down as PM. Suppose this is why we often joke that Edinburgh is an English enclave. (we being Scottish people, particularly those who've lived on the west coast) TBH, Scottish PMs don't have a particularly good record. March 25th 1306, Robert de Bruce becomes King of the Scots. Big part in Scotland regaining its independence, until 1707 anyway. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 12:27 on Mar 25, 2019 |
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Mar 25, 2019 12:23
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Coohoolin posted:Yeah gently caress that Mandela guy and his lovely ethnostate Just to echo everyone else - we're not black South Africa, we were the loyal enthusiastic sergeants of Empire and we can't kill that Empire when we deny or downplay our own involvement.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:23
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seizure later posted:I've not studied the blade, but I'll huck a tuna crunch baguette with the best of them Is this where you tell me when I was busy studying the blade you were busy taking orders at Subway?
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Mar 25, 2019 12:24
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OwlFancier posted:And people wonder why I don't trust nats to be entirely honest about their thought processes. "Coohoolin is a good representation of the typical SNP voter" is another incredibly tedious line that comes up repeatedly in this thread.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:24
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Yeah yeah but I'm sick of how lazy the "all nationalism bad" thing is when there's some obvious loving nuance to it, and a topic that sociology students spend two semesters working on
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Mar 25, 2019 12:25
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Guavanaut posted:While you were studying the blade, I was busy researching the exact 5 minute window when you can get a cheese and onion bake without it being searing magma or cold mush. It's rare a man is given pause, but this man has been given thusly. My helmet does not have a visor that I might chew on the prowess you profess.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:25
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Coohoolin posted:Yeah yeah but I'm sick of how lazy the "all nationalism bad" thing is when there's some obvious loving nuance to it, and a topic that sociology students spend two semesters working on all nationalism bad
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Mar 25, 2019 12:26
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Scikar posted:"Coohoolin is a good representation of the typical SNP voter" is another incredibly tedious line that comes up repeatedly in this thread. I find it difficult to separate, though obviously I acknowledge that this is a personal problem rather than indicative of reality.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:27
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Coohoolin posted:Yeah yeah but I'm sick of how lazy the "all nationalism bad" thing is when there's some obvious loving nuance to it, and a topic that sociology students spend two semesters working on If you want to inject a bit of nuance, I'm not sure comparing Scots to black people under apartheid is the right way to do it.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:27
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Scikar posted:"Coohoolin is a good representation of the typical SNP voter" is another incredibly tedious line that comes up repeatedly in this thread. But Coohoolin isn't an SNP voter.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:27
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Scikar posted:Why does it bear mentioning? The complaint is not "there aren't enough Scottish people in Westminster" or "the only people with a right to govern Scots are Scots themselves". The fact that Scottish Labour and the Conservatives treat Scottish politics as a stepping stone to Westminster and fail to represent Scotland adequately once there is certainly a problem, but it has little to do with the inherent fact that they are Scottish. it's relevant because it indicates that the problem isn't really one of national representation, but something more structural - it also responds to some of the more hysterical arguments like scotland being a colony or whatever my point being, if you do go indy the metropole will simply shift to edinburgh, and it'll be a somewhat shittier metropole. scotland's status as a periphery is probably what drives the snp's relative progressiveness, and once you go indy you'll get tories of your own this happens every time a left-wing national liberation movement wins out, and the SNP are emphatically not left-wing
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Mar 25, 2019 12:28
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Jedit posted:But Coohoolin isn't an SNP voter. Which makes it even more tedious to use him as your barometer!
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Mar 25, 2019 12:28
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Scikar posted:Which makes it even more tedious to use him as your barometer! Tbh I'm mostly surprised nobody has reminded us he is from Switzerland yet
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Mar 25, 2019 12:29
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Obliterati posted:Tbh I'm mostly surprised nobody has reminded us he is from Switzerland yet That's honestly kind of annoying, if you live somewhere you're as valid a participant there as someone who was born there.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:30
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Jedit posted:Yes, we are aware of your feelings regarding nationalist movements favouring political separation. Ok so see that Jonathan Shafi tweet with the Campbell/sturgeon pic? The old RISE campaigner is disillusioned with Sturgeon because of the lack of progress on a second referendum, and he think she is cosying up to the UK establishment and is just going to keep Scotland in the UK for reasons. Just thought you might be interested in the perspective, it doesn't quite match your own. Tbh I think he's just bored with being marginalised from politics because we've all had to take a back seat to Brexit
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Mar 25, 2019 12:30
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V. Illych L. posted:it's relevant because it indicates that the problem isn't really one of national representation, but something more structural - it also responds to some of the more hysterical arguments like scotland being a colony or whatever You've had enough time with the crystal ball, give it back to Mystic Meg. At least she isn't fatalistic when she tells fortunes
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Mar 25, 2019 12:30
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i'm not unsympathetic to the idea of a closer metropole btw, but i do think that pro-independence people overestimate how much they're going to gain from it and underestimate the costs involved
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Mar 25, 2019 12:31
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Coohoolin posted:Yeah yeah but I'm sick of how lazy the "all nationalism bad" thing is when there's some obvious loving nuance to it, and a topic that sociology students spend two semesters working on Nationalism is bad. However liberational nationalism of former colonial states is less bad than the nationalism of imperialist powers. The civic nationalism of Mandela is better than the racist Afrikaans nationalism. I doubt many would disagree with that. And yet nationalism is still divisive as gently caress and distracts from the only division that matters, class. Shades of grey m8.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:31
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If a corbyn government supported ditching fptp in favour of pr and offered full devo to Scotland I'd vote for it. *this will never happen.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:33
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Seen a 'Lisbon Treaty is surrendering everything' list of fear doing the rounds on facebook, is there a convenient point by point debunking of this anywhere?
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Mar 25, 2019 12:33
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I really don't think FPTP is the problem with UK politics.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:33
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V. Illych L. posted:i'm not unsympathetic to the idea of a closer metropole btw, but i do think that pro-independence people overestimate how much they're going to gain from it and underestimate the costs involved Let me profess the adage you embody, "But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
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Mar 25, 2019 12:33
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jabby posted:If you want to inject a bit of nuance, I'm not sure comparing Scots to black people under apartheid is the right way to do it. Yeah you're right, it was just the first example of an obviously positive nationalist movement that came to mind. Btw I don't vote SNP because as a non-EU foreigner I don't get voting rights. If I could, I'd probably be voting SNP in the generals and SNP/Green in the Holyrood elections, like 95% of every left wing person I know, including the labour members.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:34
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TBH if we got a Corbyn government he'd probably back both of those initiatives, he's previously said he's fine with PR as long as you have a local MP to focus on local issues too.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:34
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OwlFancier posted:I really don't think FPTP is the problem with UK politics. It's not the only problem, but it's certainly a big one.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:34
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mandela's ideology cannot be seen as nationalist in almost any sense of the term, the ethnolinguistic makeup of south africa is insanely diverse that country is simply not a nation-state, even in the pan-african sense of an anticolonial all-africa nation
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Mar 25, 2019 12:35
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thespaceinvader posted:It's not the only problem, but it's certainly a big one. Eh, I'm skeptical. PR would probably result in fewer tory governments but also fewer labour ones, just generally a less effective government.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:35
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Bacon Terrorist posted:Seen a 'Lisbon Treaty is surrendering everything' list of fear doing the rounds on facebook, is there a convenient point by point debunking of this anywhere? Not one that will convince anyone. Is it the usual "they forced Ireland to keep voting until they voted properly" thing?
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Mar 25, 2019 12:35
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OwlFancier posted:Eh, I'm skeptical. PR would probably result in fewer tory governments but also fewer labour ones, just generally a less effective government. I'm not sure it's possible to get a less effective government than our current shitshow which is a direct result of FPTP being awful.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:36
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OwlFancier posted:Eh, I'm skeptical. PR would probably result in fewer tory governments but also fewer labour ones, just generally a less effective government. FPTP: leading to *checks notes, looks out window at people scoping out looting options* effective government???
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Mar 25, 2019 12:37
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OwlFancier posted:Eh, I'm skeptical. PR would probably result in fewer tory governments but also fewer labour ones, just generally a less effective government. If by less effective you mean a minority can no longer trample the will of everyone else I'd agree.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:37
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thespaceinvader posted:I'm not sure it's possible to get a less effective government than our current shitshow which is a direct result of FPTP being awful. That's quite an unusual state of affairs though, and is arguably because of the FTPA and constitutional weirdness more than FPTP. It's quite probable that it would just result in even more coalitions across even more political terrain and even more arguing where nobody can actually command a consistent majority. I'd quite like this government to go away and not come back rather than become the norm.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:38
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Coohoolin posted:Yeah you're right, it was just the first example of an obviously positive nationalist movement that came to mind. This is why it's impossible to take you seriously man. Labour members vote SNP/Green at Holyrood aye? Why are they in Labour then? No, really, why? (I totally voted Labour/Green last time out. First time I'd ever actually voted Labour, purely out of support for the Labour leadership even though the candidate is very much Blairite, was never going to win anyway, and besides, the snp candidate is Fergus Ewing and gently caress that arsehole)
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Mar 25, 2019 12:40
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Christ I hope there is some big brexit news soon to stop this Scotland talk
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Mar 25, 2019 12:40
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OwlFancier posted:Eh, I'm skeptical. PR would probably result in fewer tory governments but also fewer labour ones, just generally a less effective government. The two options that have ever been discussed are the Alternate Vote, which is a Single Transferrable Vote, or... ...at the minute some back benchers are muttering about replacing the Lords with a PR chamber while keeping the HoC as is, meaning you have one chamber with a nationally proportional representation and another chamber of local representatives. The latter proposal was raised in the Lords and was shot down.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:41
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Jose posted:Christ I hope there is some big brexit news soon to stop this Scotland talk Talk about Scott Walker being deid
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Mar 25, 2019 12:41
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OwlFancier posted:That's quite an unusual state of affairs though, and is arguably because of the FTPA and constitutional weirdness more than FPTP. People might actually have to learn to compromise instead of just forcing through their awful ideas with a minority of the votes>? Oh how dreadful.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:41
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Jose posted:Christ I hope there is some big brexit news soon to stop this Scotland talk We wanted our own thread but you saw how that turned out
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Mar 25, 2019 12:42
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Mr.Tophat posted:Let me profess the adage you embody, "But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself."
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Mar 25, 2019 12:42
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thespaceinvader posted:People might actually have to learn to compromise instead of just forcing through their awful ideas with a minority of the votes>? Ah an optimist, who does not believe that this country's political class could not argue pointlessly until the end of time. Azza Bamboo posted:The two options that have ever been discussed are the Alternate Vote, which is a Single Transferrable Vote, or... ...at the minute some back benchers are muttering about replacing the Lords with a PR chamber while keeping the HoC as is, meaning you have one chamber with a nationally proportional representation and another chamber of local representatives. The latter proposal was raised in the Lords and was shot down. To be honest I don't really see the point of an elected lords, the lords sole point really is that they don't give a poo poo about electability. You might as well get rid of the chamber if you're going to make it elected cos it's just going to mirror the commons otherwise.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:42
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