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Jose posted:Christ I hope there is some big brexit news soon to stop this Scotland talk *draws a card from one of those big gauntlet things they have in Yu Gi Oh, smirking* ... the best Monster Munch is ... Irn Bru
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Mar 25, 2019 12:43
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Talking of Scottish Imperialism, I recently learned that part of the reason for the Union of Crowns was Scotland completely bankrupting itself by failing to conquer large parts of Panama in the 1690s. I find this fact fascinating and hilarious, because I feel like I (and i'm willing to bet, everyone) have a a really fragmented view of history, and this just smashes through that. I know that the Salem Witch Trials, the Golden Age of Piracy, Glorious Revolution, Spain conquering everything in sight, and Louis XIV all occurred in the late 17th century, I just didn't know they were all happening at the same time
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Mar 25, 2019 12:44
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OwlFancier posted:Ah an optimist, who does not believe that this country's political class could not argue pointlessly until the end of time. I'd prefer that to murdering people with austerity and loving up brexit tbh
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Mar 25, 2019 12:44
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Scot posters please rank previous post devo governments based on effective policy. Only one was an absolute majority.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:44
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Jose posted:Christ I hope there is some big brexit news soon to stop this Scotland talk ngl I've spent the past like hour desperately scouring around for fuckin' something to try and distract from this, to no avail
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Mar 25, 2019 12:44
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thespaceinvader posted:I'd prefer that to murdering people with austerity and loving up brexit tbh I mean, this presumes that positive action is required to do those things, rather than absence of positive action, which is sort of what I'm getting at. An ineffective coalition based government has problems because it can't do needed changes easily.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:46
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Guavanaut posted:So sayeth Toby Young. I don't understand. *googles* Hey!
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Mar 25, 2019 12:46
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thespaceinvader posted:People might actually have to learn to compromise instead of just forcing through their awful ideas with a minority of the votes>? in theory this is lovely but in reality Tories would still exist and never compromise on anything, meaning they're the only people who would ever get their way
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Mar 25, 2019 12:47
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I suspect an independent Scotland will be better equipped to deal with its colonial legacy when it is no longer tied to an institution that literally centres its national narratives on that legacy being a good thing
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Mar 25, 2019 12:48
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Am I too late to run in and say I'd support an independent scotland and think nicola sturgeon would make a better taoiseach than leo varadkar.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:48
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OwlFancier posted:I mean, this presumes that positive action is required to do those things, rather than absence of positive action, which is sort of what I'm getting at. An ineffective coalition based government has problems because it can't do needed changes easily. And an effective non-coalition leftist government is basically an impossible dream under FPTP, because lefties are tribal splitters and righties don't give a gently caress. So we're under the boot forever, as opposed to at least havign SOME input. I'm still not seeing how this is a good thing. (And positive action was absolfuckinglutely needed for both things, austerity has been brought about and maintained by positive Tory actions, and Brexit is a positive Tory action through and through. For a given definition of positive, of course.)
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Mar 25, 2019 12:49
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Azza Bamboo posted:The two options that have ever been discussed are the Alternate Vote, which is a Single Transferrable Vote, or... AV is not PR at all. AV Plus, which is AV modified to make it actually proportional, was recommended by the Jenkins commission in 1998. There are also list systems like AMS (which makes it important to control list creation).
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Mar 25, 2019 12:50
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brexit was specifically brought about as an attempt by cameron to compromise with elements of his own party. I'm not sure that compromises are the best argument against brexit. And parliament is presently proving terminally incapable of agreeing on not sinking the country into the ocean even with the weakest government in history.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:50
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Scikar posted:I don't have any problem with opposing nationalism. But I don't think it's very helpful when people are pointing out problems with the union, to talk over them and say they're asking for fascism. This isn't a "lefties saying racism is bad have made me a nazi" thing, people are just completely glossing over your point because they don't see any relevance to what they're saying. i am and always have been entirely willing to discuss scotland, relative to the UK or generally. i am not talking over them, i am screaming - trying to warn people that they are accidentally inviting fascism into their lives, that this force they are so sure they can tame will devour them. and has done so to the left basically every time it has been tried to the point it is now done deliberately. that people do not see the relevance is the core problem and only motivates me to scream louder. i do not pretend to be reasonable about this - nationalism is a moral atrocity. anything that normalizes it or reinforces it is vile and should be hounded from polite society in the same way any moral atrocity is. Nothingtoseehere posted:It's easy to rant about nationalism, easy! necessary! desirable! a moral imperative! quote:but we all currently live under a state of British nationalism that involves rule over other countries, sooooo.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:51
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forkboy84 posted:Talk about Scott Walker being deid I first thought it was the Wisconsin senator and got all happy.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:52
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OwlFancier posted:brexit was specifically brought about as an attempt by cameron to compromise with elements of his own party. I'm not sure that compromises are the best argument against brexit. With far-right elements of his own party. Which was only in government as a single party that didn't require significant balancing compromise with much further-left views because?
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Mar 25, 2019 12:52
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CoolCab posted:i am and always have been entirely willing to discuss scotland, relative to the UK or generally. i am not talking over them, i am screaming - trying to warn people that they are accidentally inviting fascism into their lives, that this force they are so sure they can tame will devour them. and has done so to the left basically every time it has been tried to the point it is now done deliberately. that people do not see the relevance is the core problem and only motivates me to scream louder. cool i look forward to seeing your pathological ramblings the next time varadkar has the gall to say that irish interests differ from british ones
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Mar 25, 2019 12:53
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thespaceinvader posted:With far-right elements of his own party. I'm suggesting that people offer really stupid poo poo in ideological coalitions. The last coalition brought us 5p bags in exchange for more benefit sanctions. And we're on the cusp of a pretty radical labour government, I don't really want their first job being "let's compromise with the tories"
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Mar 25, 2019 12:54
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Nicola Sturgeon has the look of a woman who chides restaurant waiting staff for getting something wrong, and because of that I will be voting No on IndyRef2
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Mar 25, 2019 12:54
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OwlFancier posted:I'm suggesting that people offer really stupid poo poo in ideological coalitions. The last coalition brought us 5p bags in exchange for more benefit sanctions. If by on the cusp you mean the Tories will be in government until 2022 by which time the gammon class will have entirely forgotten how much the Tories hosed them and nothing will change, yes.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:55
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thespaceinvader posted:If by on the cusp you mean the Tories will be in government until 2022 by which time the gammon class will have entirely forgotten how much the Tories hosed them and nothing will change, yes. bold of you to assume they will have ever realised it at all, ever.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:56
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Like ok PR might not necessarily be that bad but I'm just not convinced that settling for eternal centrism of the creaseless mind is really what we should be doing when there's a really strong demographic trend that looks like it's gonna push the country pretty hard left for at least a generation if not moreso taking into account climate change and its roots in capitalism? You've got a lot of people coming up the age ranges who have been systematically hosed up by capitalism and the tories and for the most part they seem increasingly on board with left wing answers to that. I'd like for them to inherit the terrifying power of a majority UK government. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 13:01 on Mar 25, 2019 |
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Mar 25, 2019 12:56
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Coohoolin posted:cool i look forward to seeing your pathological ramblings the next time varadkar has the gall to say that irish interests differ from british ones good! i work very hard on them, it's nice to be appreciated.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:57
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Coohoolin posted:cool i look forward to seeing your pathological ramblings the next time varadkar has the gall to say that irish interests differ from british ones probably better to focus on how nationalism (both Irish and British) has worked out in that place a bit farther north
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Mar 25, 2019 12:57
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thespaceinvader posted:If by on the cusp you mean the Tories will be in government until 2022 by which time the gammon class will have entirely forgotten how much the Tories hosed them and nothing will change, yes. why would they care? as long as it fucks up other people moreso
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Mar 25, 2019 12:58
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Clearly the solution should be for Scotland to join Ireland into a pan celtic-gaelic league  Also something something Wales.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:59
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Samovar posted:I first thought it was the Wisconsin senator and got all happy. Actually he's the ex-governor and I too was happy for a hot second.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:59
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Tesseraction posted:probably better to focus on how nationalism (both Irish and British) has worked out in that place a bit farther north oh no you didn't
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Mar 25, 2019 12:59
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OwlFancier posted:To be honest I don't really see the point of an elected lords, the lords sole point really is that they don't give a poo poo about electability. You might as well get rid of the chamber if you're going to make it elected cos it's just going to mirror the commons otherwise. I was never a fan of replacing the Lords, but to me it's more that the Lords appear to be appointed on the basis of an expertise. For example Winston was brought in so he can throw his voice into discussions about fertility and embryos, which has been relevant since the development of stem cells. It's not perfect, as Lords have no requirement to just stick to their knowledge bases and can vote whenever, but does seem to vaguely work this way and I feel that this could be lost if it becomes truly elected. As for the STV, this is something I voted for. I think there's a sense among the public that votes can be "wasted" and having the option to transfer a vote will get more people engaged but also allow people already engaged to truly express their party of choice. This is largely down to a silly personal belief I have which is that the Green Party is more popular than it appears under FPTP.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:59
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OwlFancier posted:Like ok PR might not necessarily be that bad but I'm just not convinced that settling for eternal centrism of the creaseless mind is really what we should be doing when there's a really strong demographic trend that looks like it's gonna push the country pretty hard left for at least a generation if not moreso taking into account climate change and its roots in capitalism? Because, honestly, *it is a better system that allows mroe people to be better represented than FPTP*. If there's a countrywide powerful leftist movement that is strong enough to win elections under FPTP and horrible electoral fuckery, then it's MORE than strong enough to win under some form of PR, especially when PR should allow more people to fgeel more engaged by allowing their votes to ACTUALLY MATTER when they're in what are current;y unassaibly $whatever constituencies. Because doing the right thing, is what we're here for. Also because FPTP naturally forces every party towards eternal ever-rightwardly-drifting centrism anyway. It's how we got to this point in the first place.
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Mar 25, 2019 13:00
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CoolCab posted:i am and always have been entirely willing to discuss scotland, relative to the UK or generally. i am not talking over them, i am screaming - trying to warn people that they are accidentally inviting fascism into their lives, that this force they are so sure they can tame will devour them. and has done so to the left basically every time it has been tried to the point it is now done deliberately. that people do not see the relevance is the core problem and only motivates me to scream louder. So what is the problem with people wanting Scottish independence in order to be part of the EU (ignoring for a moment whether that is realistic)? I would argue that with Brexit happening, there is an internationalist element to Scottish independence now. It seems strange and counterproductive to see someone wanting to distance themselves from UKIP's flagship policy, and call that nationalism.
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Mar 25, 2019 13:01
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I mean I'm here for crushing tories by any effective means so I'd totally prefer the people like, 10 years younger than me to have absolute power via fptp and I figure after that the world's gonna be sufficiently different that they can do their own voting changes if they want them.
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Mar 25, 2019 13:03
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Bacon Terrorist posted:Seen a 'Lisbon Treaty is surrendering everything' list of fear doing the rounds on facebook, is there a convenient point by point debunking of this anywhere? https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1087258784001654784
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Mar 25, 2019 13:04
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Oh dear me posted:AV is not PR at all. AV Plus, which is AV modified to make it actually proportional, was recommended by the Jenkins commission in 1998. There are also list systems like AMS (which makes it important to control list creation). I'm not suggesting that AV is PR. I'm saying it's the only voting reform that has been discussed. While it isn't direct PR I do like it.
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Mar 25, 2019 13:04
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OwlFancier posted:Ah an optimist, who does not believe that this country's political class could not argue pointlessly until the end of time. Only let them serve a single term
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Mar 25, 2019 13:04
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Scikar posted:So what is the problem with people wanting Scottish independence in order to be part of the EU (ignoring for a moment whether that is realistic)? I would argue that with Brexit happening, there is an internationalist element to Scottish independence now. It seems strange and counterproductive to see someone wanting to distance themselves from UKIP's flagship policy, and call that nationalism. the yes campaign was ALWAYS, from the get go, a pro-immigration, pro-internationalism, anti-racist movement that differentiated itself from the unionist movement that garnered support from every right wing group from the tories to ukip and the bnp and the national front the snp is consistently positive in its messaging about immigration and multiculturalism, and is one of the main reasons why we never had the same hate crime spike that happened in England after the Brexit referendum, and why I actually feel safe and welcome as a Scottish citizen up here despite the rest of the landmass wanting me gone it is absolutely bizarre and an outright re-writing of history to maintain that the independence movement is in any way a right wing project, let alone suggest that it is primarily so
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Mar 25, 2019 13:05
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Tesseraction posted:ngl I've spent the past like hour desperately scouring around for fuckin' something to try and distract from this, to no avail https://twitter.com/SolHughesWriter/status/1110124646068834304
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Mar 25, 2019 13:06
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Tesseraction posted:ngl I've spent the past like hour desperately scouring around for fuckin' something to try and distract from this, to no avail How about the problems of Government not having started the SI process to move 'exit day' to match 'brexit day'? https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1110137715658579968.html original tweet chain https://twitter.com/AdamJTucker/status/1110137715658579968
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Mar 25, 2019 13:06
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I'm here for crushing tories by any effective means so I'd totally prefer the people like, 10 years younger than me to have absolute power via fptp and I figure after that the world's gonna be sufficiently different that they can do their own voting changes if they want them. For as long as Corbyn holds the keys to Labour I can dig this. It forces non tory centrists to prop up socialism with their votes, or waste them. As long as Labour is socialist it uses the threat of vote wastage to its advantage. It's a thing that's morally and democratically dubious but in terms of putting power into the right hands I can understand the argument for it. If Harman and the non Harman Harmans injects someone to the leadership I'll be less understanding. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Mar 25, 2019 |
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Mar 25, 2019 13:06
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Talking of Scottish Imperialism, I recently learned that part of the reason for the Union of Crowns was Scotland completely bankrupting itself by failing to conquer large parts of Panama in the 1690s.  The Union of the Crowns was in 1603 under James the Numbering Argument. Azza Bamboo posted:I was never a fan of replacing the Lords, but to me it's more that the Lords appear to be appointed on the basis of an expertise. For example Winston was brought in so he can throw his voice into discussions about fertility and embryos, which has been relevant since the development of stem cells. It's not perfect, as Lords have no requirement to just stick to their knowledge bases and can vote whenever, but does seem to vaguely work this way and I feel that this could be lost if it becomes truly elected. But you could do that in an elected way, have a bar to entry based on membership of certain professional associations, but allow Scotland, Wales, and the English regions each elect a dozen Senators or whatever on a rolling basis, to secure representation of the regions rather than party donors and business interests, and allow proper scrutiny to be given to bills without having the largest upper house in the world outside of India (pop. 1.34bn).
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Mar 25, 2019 13:07
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