|
Expect My Mom posted:One last thing, I've seen a million questions about this, but ignored the answer cause I didn't have context: I like, def shouldn't send Jinzaemon to the Dungeon right? Or anyone for that matter. I have no other options to do with him so I assume he'll appear later I sent him there. That questline doesn't end well for anyone. it was pretty cool though.
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 17:24 |
|
|
Your Computer posted:oh okay so you were just making a joke Not at all... I was going to post some maps to prove my point, but all I really need to say is look at how many shortcuts you open up in DS3 or BB that *matter*. You're opening up doors to places you've already been in Sekiro all the time but they seem perfunctory and have no impact at all on the way you progress through the game. Like, who cares that you opened the front door to the castle? It has no impact at all.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:21
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:there has never been anyone more enthusiastic to be wrong about everything than forums poster zaphod42 I've been calling this thread Sekiro - Zaphod42 Posts Twice... per minute
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:21
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:I'm sorry but this is just wrong. Kojima himself said that they did focus testing, and designed Raiden after a bunch of girls said that Snake didn't appeal to them and they would "Never play a game about old men".
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:21
|
|
|
Cowcaster posted:i think he meant more in the sense that once you've discovered the optimal stealth/murder route through an area there's nearly no incentive to doing it differently ever again, which is fair, but is a complaint you could level at the souls games easily as well. Though with teleporting, you shouldn't really need to run an area more than once, anyways. Enter zone, explore methodically to find items/secrets/paths and learn where the enemies are, figure out the optimal path, get through, move on. The only reason you're having to replay a zone is if you're getting stuck on one enemy, but then just like stealth your way back to that enemy and practice fighting them. Having an optimal path doesn't seem like a big deal to me, especially since many players will never actually find the true optimal path and will instead find something that works pretty well and just make do with that. Lots of subtle little ways to go through the levels.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:21
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:I'm sorry but this is just wrong. Kojima himself said that they did focus testing, and designed Raiden after a bunch of girls said that Snake didn't appeal to them and they would "Never play a game about old men". Kojima has a bit of a cheeky sense of humor.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:21
|
|
|
The Walrus posted:Not at all... I was going to post some maps to prove my point, but all I really need to say is look at how many shortcuts you open up in DS3 or BB that *matter*. You're opening up doors to places you've already been in Sekiro all the time but they seem perfunctory and have no impact at all on the way you progress through the game. Like, who cares that you opened the front door to the castle? It has no impact at all. I don't see how having shortcuts makes an area less linear
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:22
|
|
|
I think a lot of the difficulty early on comes down to lack of information. I have a friend who isn’t as experienced at souls games as I am who started sekiro after me. He asked for tips on the chained ogre before fighting it and I gave him a ton of information and he proceeded to beat it in two tries, where it took me like 6+ Later on, you get access to additional gourd seeds and resurrections and there’s way more room for error, too. Like, Capra Demon was just as nuts back when people didn’t really get poise or know about the wolf ring, and now he’s just whatever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:22
|
|
|
Speaking of end game stuff, what was I supposed to do with the two snake viscera? Getting them was fun, but I don't remember anyone telling me I needed them for anything and I didn't give them to anyone. Were they part of the incense plot?
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:23
|
|
|
tpink posted:Seriously, for anyone else struggling, change your mindset away from falling back and waiting and switch it to just going HAM on everything. It’s a game changer. This might be my issue. Should I just spam R1 and then parry whenever the enemy attacks in the middle of my attacks? Can you "interrupt" your own attacks with parries? Also, how much do you have to be "pointed towards" an enemy to parry them? If I'm swinging at one enemy and another enemy attacks me from the side, can I still parry them without switching target? edit: "attack enemies a bunch" actually makes a lot of sense in theory, since even if you don't parry (and just regular block) you can presumably do more damage to their posture than they do to yours, assuming they're not a miniboss/boss. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Mar 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:23
|
|
|
MMF Freeway posted:I think saying its a stealth game "at its core" is extremely wrong. It has some pretty light stealth elements but "at its core" its a combat focused action game. Just look at how fleshed out the fighting system is compared to the stealth system. The game is approached with stealth and encourages being stealthy throughout the opening act. Verticality, ninjutsu, being able to shave a pip off by opening with a stealth deathblow on most mini-bosses - it's as important to the game as the direct combat is at least, and in my opinion it's the core of the game. It's fine if we disagree, but pretending like several bosses don't take a lot of your tools away is just objectively incorrect. Andrast posted:I don't think I killed any boss with anywhere near perfect execution. I found that the game is actually pretty lenient with loving up since you are really mobile and get a free res. I think I should clarify that my point is chiefly about two early boss fights - the one at the "end" of the Hirata Estate route, and the one at the top of Ashina Castle. If you made multiple mistakes and recovered, I don't want to deny your experience, but it's clearly an issue or it wouldn't be coming up so often. I get that the meme response is always "git gud" but Sekiro's first act is a bridge too far in my estimation. I don't think it's game-ruiningly bad, but I definitely think it isn't, you know, good. The first act could've used another pass in QA I think. This idea that Miyazaki/FROM is/are infallible seems very weird to me.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:24
|
|
|
Crowetron posted:Speaking of end game stuff, what was I supposed to do with the two snake viscera? Getting them was fun, but I don't remember anyone telling me I needed them for anything and I didn't give them to anyone. Were they part of the incense plot? They are for the "best" ending route
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:24
|
|
|
Crowetron posted:Speaking of end game stuff, what was I supposed to do with the two snake viscera? Getting them was fun, but I don't remember anyone telling me I needed them for anything and I didn't give them to anyone. Were they part of the incense plot? I think that having both of them, in combination with some other stuff, unlocks one of the four endings.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:25
|
|
|
We've already reached this phase of the thread
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:25
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:I'm sorry but this is just wrong. Kojima himself said that they did focus testing, and designed Raiden after a bunch of girls said that Snake didn't appeal to them and they would "Never play a game about old men".
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:25
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:This might be my issue. Should I just spam R1 and then parry whenever the enemy attacks in the middle of my attacks? Can you "interrupt" your out attacks with parries? you'll want to keep an eye on the enemy as you're R1'ing them, if you see an orange flash that means they parried you and they'll do a counterattack, so stop R1'ing and get ready to parry their counterattack.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:26
|
|
|
i definitely play everything that isn't a boss fight like a stealth game.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:26
|
|
|
Andrast posted:They are for the "best" ending route mikeraskol posted:I think that having both of them, in combination with some other stuff, unlocks one of the four endings. Oh, cool. I think I already hosed up my ending based on some other spoilered side quest stuff, but good to know for NG+.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:26
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:This might be my issue. Should I just spam R1 and then parry whenever the enemy attacks in the middle of my attacks? Can you "interrupt" your out attacks with parries? you can interrupt your attacks with parries, but only for the first few frames or so. Once your dude is in the middle of the swing you're committed. You can block slightly to your left and right, but any attacks right from your sides or behind are going to hit
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:26
|
|
|
What does this dude (forgot his name) in the Great Serpent Shrine mean by, "mastered any secret techniques"?
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:26
|
|
|
Andrast posted:I don't see how having shortcuts makes an area less linear it kind of does by definition because now you have the long way and the short way. there are no situations in Sekiro where you are even presented with that simple option, there's just the way. That was DS3's entire design so I'm surprised that people are calling me on it; very complex, intertwining levels (is nobody remembering Cathedral of the Deep?), which replaced the intertwining overworld from DS1. In Sekiro, they said it was more of a return to DS1 style (so more linear levels with intertwining overworld), but the interconnectedness of the overworld is not nearly as intricate and 3 dimensional as BB or DS1. As I said it's basically a DS2 style hub.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:27
|
|
|
lets hang out posted:We've already reached this phase of the thread
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:27
|
|
|
Zaphod42 posted:I'm sorry but this is just wrong. Kojima himself said that they did focus testing, and designed Raiden after a bunch of girls said that Snake didn't appeal to them and they would "Never play a game about old men". Yeah, the aspect that plays into the themes and plot is the fact that they were able to successfully hide the fact that the protagonist wasn't Snake. They went to great lengths to make sure this didn't leak, including altering footage of Big Shell in trailers to show Snake as a main character. The fact that it didn't leak is extraordinary, and I don't know that it'd be possible to pull this off again. The game was largely about information control and the way that information can be manipulated (as well as memes, in the original sense of the word), so this fit in well with that. But a blond pretty-boy anime man in a Japanese video game is not a troll, it's a trope. And it's a trope because it plays well in Japan.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:27
|
|
|
The Walrus posted:it kind of does by definition because now you have the long way and the short way. there are no situations in Sekiro where you are even presented with that simple option, there's just the way. On the other hand Sekiro runs fast as gently caress and with the grappling hook (+ various ninja tools) it has never been easier or faster to just go past stuff. This means those mid-level shortcuts aren't really needed. Andrast fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Mar 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:28
|
|
|
Your Computer posted:honestly faster than I thought its monday at work and everyone just wishes they were playing this amazing game. but please why don't we argue about the actual game instead of metal gear solid.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:28
|
|
|
guts and bolts posted:Do we have to post credentials before we can talk about this game's difficulty? I got the Platinum trophy in all the Dark Souls games plus DLC and Bloodborne. I just finished Dante Must Die S ranking DMC5. I like challenging games quite a bit. Yeah okay.  guts and bolts posted:Sekiro's problems, as I see them, are twofold. Your problem right here is that it's actually not. In stealth games you generally are weak and defenseless in a straight fight and have to rely on tricks or special mechanics to win, usually. In this you're actually super strong compared to most From games, especially with so many resurrections. The blocking/deflect are CRAZY generous and forgiving, and the fact that they're one button means even if you gently caress up a deflect you'll still block, which against the vast majority of attacks still means you take no health damage. Similarly, you have a TON of options to hit enemies through their guard, and a lot of enemies have very specific weaknesses that, once exploited you can just clown on them. There are some exceptional bosses to both these rules, but even with the Castle boss everyone hates - you can back off and recover posture pretty easily (though he will too) and block literally all of his attacks in the first phase without taking any damage, so you can dance around him indefinitely without dying, even if you're bad at the deflect windows. It's like saying Deus Ex is a stealth game because that makes it easier, even though you can just roll in with 3 augs running and blow up everything with a GEP gun when you actually do get caught. guts and bolts posted:The second problem ties into the first. Direct combat in this game is incredibly binary. You either play perfectly, or close to it, and the encounter feels trivial, or you make maybe two mistakes? and then get trapped in a cock-up cascade that renders the fight essentially unwinnable. This is most pronounced early on, which to me is emblematic of poor balance. Sekiro is at its hardest right near start, chiefly when you first attempt to take on Genichiro at Ashina Castle, and that specific boss seems like a litmus test for whether or not you will have the patience to finish the game. You said in your humblebrag opening that you played BB... what the hell did you call Gascoigne if not a litmus test of "get on board with dodging and countering or get hosed?" He's literally the first boss and CRAZY punishing in a game where you're far more defenseless as a lay player who may not fully get the concept of iframes on dodges or that you need to dodge through attacks. guts and bolts posted:What's more, there's a pervasive sense, owing to the fact that there's three different core dodge/deflect mechanics, that each boss effectively has a solution that you adhere to or die. ("This boss does a lot of thrusts, Mikiri Counter" or "This boss does a lot of sweeps, jump kick" is a highly simplified version of what I'm talking about.) So instead of killing ingeniously, as the tagline suggests, you wind up having to figure out what the game wants you to do via insane amounts of trial and error. You largely don't tackle bosses with creativity - you figure out the one solution and employ it. Or, as is the case with the boss at the end of reception room in Hirata Estate, exploiting the gently caress out of them in a way that doesn't feel very satisfying. For reference, anyone struggling with Lady Butterfly, you can wholly ignore 90% of her fight's mechanics by doing the Nightjar Slash over and over and over and over. This is accurate, however. There is a definitive way in which this game should be played, mostly, and deviating from it is making things harder than they need to be. Thing is, plenty of other games do this. Shooters do it all the time, so do platformers. The closest approximation to this game is honestly the recent God of War, though this has even less dynamic gameplay in the sense that you have only one weapon and you can't build your armor around, say heavy usage of power moves. You have far more defensive options, however. Maybe... maybe you guys should just stop typecasting FromSoft and judge each game on its own??? 
Fuzz fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Mar 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:28
|
|
|
Arist posted:What does this dude (forgot his name) in the Great Serpent Shrine mean by, "mastered any secret techniques"? He's asking if you've unlocked any of the skills at the end of any of the skill trees.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:29
|
|
|
The Walrus posted:it kind of does by definition because now you have the long way and the short way. there are no situations in Sekiro where you are even presented with that simple option, there's just the way. sekiro has shortcuts. i think ds3 is amazing and people acting like it aint that great are weirdos but they did give you too many bonfires.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:29
|
|
|
Arist posted:What does this dude (forgot his name) in the Great Serpent Shrine mean by, "mastered any secret techniques"? He means the final skill on any of the skill trees.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:30
|
|
|
Your Computer posted:you only parry from the front, yes, and you can to an extent cancel your attacks into parries Ah, so basically attack a bunch until they parry, at which point I watch for and block/parry the counter-attack? I'm guessing the answer to multiple enemies is just to move around and avoid being flanked (and to rush any ranged guys who might be mixed in).
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:30
|
|
|
Cardiovorax posted:In all fairness, they had a lot of fun doing both of these, what with the literal Solid Snake mask he wears at first and how they then pulled a double bait-and-switch by having Snake wear a Raiden mask at the beginning of MGS3. Kojima definitely has a cheeky sense of humor lol. Ytlaya posted:This might be my issue. Should I just spam R1 and then parry whenever the enemy attacks in the middle of my attacks? Can you "interrupt" your out attacks with parries? Souls games in general definitely tend to punish you for being timid on bosses, some of their nastiest moves tend to be when you're far away and they leap to attack you. Its usually easier to avoid attacks if you get up in their business, but that's obviously a bit stressful until you learn their attacks, so you gotta kinda balance it. Yes, you generally want to spam R1 when you get an opening, but then switch to blocking when they recover. You'll have to get a feel for different enemies through experience. I'm not positive about attack animation cancelling into parries (you're asking about "interrupts", we typically call that a "cancel") it seems to be pretty forgiving, but there are also times where you can't. The way it seems to work to me is (could be wrong) if you keep spamming attack, you cannot interrupt that with a parry once you're already swinging. However, as long as you aren't currently swinging, you can tap the block button and INSTANTLY parry, without any kind of a warm-up period to your parry unlike in dark souls. Because of the way posture works, overwhelming enemies is basically what you HAVE to do. But for enemies that can react to your attacks, just spamming R1 doesn't work because they'll start deflecting at some point and then turn it on you. Sekiro combat is basically all about 2 things: 1. sensing when you can attack, and when your enemy has recovered so you need to deflect, and then when they've exhausted so you can go back to attacking 2. sensing when you can deflect, when you need to dodge away from a grab, when you need to jump or counter a thrust The whole game is just enemies that change things slightly so you have to play with those 2 things in increasingly different and difficult ways. Some enemies have more vitality, some more posture. Some are weak to certain moves. Some use a ton of thrusts that you have to counter, others don't use thrusts but have fast attacks in a row that are simply difficult to deflect. Stuff like that. Slight changes to the formula. Mooks are bad at deflecting so lots of them you can just spam-rush their face and you'll manage to get a posture-break before they can ever swing at you. But usually there's more than 1 enemy so that doesn't work for long.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:31
|
|
|
I honestly never had major trouble with Gascoigne. The comparison to BB I'd make in terms of a lot of the earlygame bosses is Darkbeast Paarl, who while not nearly as hard is the same flavor of weird, bad fight.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:31
|
|
|
lol you can make the fight against O'Rin a lot easier if you jump on her head at the beginning. It makes it so you can backstab her for some reason. Actually fighting her after that is still hard as hell. What's the tech to beat Corrupted Monk?
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:32
|
|
|
I'm not sure I'd say the Souls games don't need their RPG elements, but I will say that I don't think Bloodborne did. I don't think that game gained anything at all from linear weapon upgrades and increasing stats to do more damage. A "build" in Bloodborne only really matters in that it decides which weapons you're allowed to wield, but the more interesting decision is "which weapon do I want to wield right now," I think. I guess. It's still my favorite From Software game but the stat leveling stuff feels entirely superfluous and like it limits your options on a character for no good reason. I don't become a fundamentally different kind of character by building Strength instead of Skill, y'know? I'm generally a fan of advancement systems where every step you take adds some new action or ability that you can do rather than just increasing the numbers some of your existing actions have. That's something I'm enjoying about Sekiro and something I really liked in Nioh as well (though Nioh also has stat leveling alongside the skill trees).
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:33
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Ah, so basically attack a bunch until they parry, at which point I watch for an block/parry the counter-attack? you got it. The game got so much easier once I realized the enemies aren't just randomly deciding to attack and you can actually tell by the orange spark that you should stop hitting them. as for multiple enemies, ideally you just... don't. You're a shinobi! Use your stealth, take out the enemies before they get a chance to spot you. There's no shame in running and hiding if things get hairy. Even regular mooks deal so much damage in this game that if you're fighting multiple enemies you can really get clowned on.
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:33
|
|
|
Ytlaya posted:Ah, so basically attack a bunch until they parry, at which point I watch for an block/parry the counter-attack? When you're taking on mobs, you want to use stealth kills to thin out as many of them as you can. Once you're spotted, you do indeed want to rush down ranged attackers. When you have 3-4 melee guys right on you, it's generally a good idea to run away until you have an opportunity to take on just one of them at a time. BUT there are tools you can use to take on multiple guys (the whirlwind slash is very good), and it's important to remember that kill animations have a ton of i frames so you don't need to worry about taking damage while you're finishing a guy off. il serpente cosmico fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Mar 25, 2019 |
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:33
|
|
|
Arist posted:I honestly never had major trouble with Gascoigne. The comparison to BB I'd make in terms of a lot of the earlygame bosses is Darkbeast Paarl, who while not nearly as hard is the same flavor of weird, bad fight. for some people, like myself, he was a late game boss and died easily. gascoigne can absolutely rock you if you aren't used to the parry system ( i hit a wall with him as i'd totally avoided the system up until then since i never parried in the souls games).
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:34
|
|
|
Andrast posted:I sent him there. That questline doesn't end well for anyone. it was pretty cool though. maybe I will then....
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:34
|
|
|
guts and bolts posted:This idea that Miyazaki/FROM is/are infallible seems very weird to me. Criticism is fair and we definitely shouldn't act like FROM is beyond reproach, that's toxic. I do feel some bosses are a bit tenacious in that even if you survive a tough hit, its hard to get a moment to simply drink the potion without taking another hit. But then you just gotta try to be clever. Lady Butterfly for example you can use the wooden posts, just move so they're between you and her and you can get off a free potion while she throws shurikens at a post
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 17:24 |
|
|
I'm loving the game but one patch I'd appreciate would be to fix the lock on break around walls, it was infuriating against the bull and it killed me on at least one occasion against Genichiro
|
|
#
?
Mar 25, 2019 19:34
|
|
