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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 26, 2019 03:35
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I don't think it's a given that Hu would have done the same things as Xi in Xinjiang. The worst of the violence by far, the Urumqi riots, was in 2009, but the total surveillance state and the camps have only come about in the last few years. Hu had 3+ years under his watch to deal with Xinjiang post-riots, and while they did take some fairly harsh measures (iirc they literally just disconnected the entire province of Xinjiang from the internet for a year or so) it was nothing like what's happened under Xi.
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Mar 26, 2019 03:57
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I'm inclined to view the escalation in Xinjiang as part of a cycle of escalation of colonial violence and response that has been more or less locked in for some time, so I'd say if you'd wanted to avoid the current situation you'd have to go back to when Hu Yaobang was still around opposing Han settlement in the region. Since then Deng, Jiang, and Hu all worked to open up Xinjiang to Han settlement and I imagine even if they'd avoided the concentration camp system a different leader would have come up with other repressive measures to continue the cycle
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Mar 26, 2019 04:04
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Zohar posted:I'm inclined to view the escalation in Xinjiang as part of a cycle of escalation of colonial violence and response that has been more or less locked in for some time, so I'd say if you'd wanted to avoid the current situation you'd have to go back to when Hu Yaobang was still around opposing Han settlement in the region. Since then Deng, Jiang, and Hu all worked to open up Xinjiang to Han settlement and I imagine even if they'd avoided the concentration camp system a different leader would have come up with other repressive measures to continue the cycle I agree in general but I don't understand the reeducation camp. What is the end game? I understand checking your phone every week but what's the point of sending people to the camp. I have never met any Chinese who can explain it online because this subject matter is a no-no.
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Mar 26, 2019 05:46
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tino posted:I agree in general but I don't understand the reeducation camp. What is the end game? I understand checking your phone every week but what's the point of sending people to the camp. I have never met any Chinese who can explain it online because this subject matter is a no-no. The end goal of any socialist reeducation camp? To turn American backed separatists into productive citizens? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 26, 2019 06:03
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The end goal of any socialist reeducation camp? To turn American backed separatists into productive citizens? It doesn't work, China has done it more than ones. See rightists reeducation camp.
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Mar 26, 2019 06:05
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:The end goal of any socialist reeducation camp? To turn American backed separatists into productive citizens? Not all Uighyrs need to be subjected to things like that. Besides, if it's a small cell shouldn't it be easy to take care of without affecting the larger populace?
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Mar 26, 2019 07:22
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Are they basically Chinese gulags designed for erasing the 'more rebellious' Uyghurs of Xinjiang? Xi's trying to see how far he can get away with that.
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Mar 26, 2019 07:25
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Besides, the Uighyr people have their own culture and it shouldn't be a problem to proudly have it be part of the tapestry of China, right beside the Han. Minority voices help shape a country, you know.
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Mar 26, 2019 07:53
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tino posted:I agree in general but I don't understand the reeducation camp. What is the end game? I understand checking your phone every week but what's the point of sending people to the camp. I have never met any Chinese who can explain it online because this subject matter is a no-no. I kind of figure there wasn't any deep reason for it, and the government just got spooked by recent flareups in the Middle East. Especially considering a bunch of Uighur fighters went off to Syria to fight with TIP and hosed with Assad pretty effectively.
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Mar 26, 2019 07:58
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Grapplejack posted:Not all Uighyrs need to be subjected to things like that. Besides, if it's a small cell shouldn't it be easy to take care of without affecting the larger populace? Not all of them are subjected to things like that? The "1 million" figure thrown around is a VOA invention that they arrived at by extrapolating from a document "leaked" by exile groups: quote:The first estimate, from Adrian Zenz, a social scientist at the European School of Culture & Theology, is based on an accounting of the detention camp populations totalling some 892,000 individuals in 68 Xinjiang counties as of the Spring of 2018. These numbers are from a document leaked by Chinese public security authorities to Istiqlal, a Uighur exile media organization based in Turkey, and also later appeared in Newsweek Japan. Istiqlal TV's internet presence is minimal and seems to be centered around this youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClimdqKrS9Jr65jQh8_nNqw Certainly the most credible source for leaked documents. The second estimate, which is based on even more spurious methodology, comes from China Human Rights Defenders, a known NED-funded regime change NGO, asking people in a few villages how many they think are being detained: quote:The second estimate comes from the Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit Chinese Human Rights Defenders (CHRD). Between mid-2017 and mid-2018, CHRD interviewed eight ethnic Uighurs located in eight different villages in southern Xinjiang. Each person gave their own estimate of the number of people detained in their village, which CHRD used to surmise a detention rate for each village. These village detention rates ranged from 8 to 20 percent, averaging out to 12.8 percent across all eight villages. Just as Zenz did, CHRD “conservatively” rounded down to reach a 10 percent estimated detention rate. CHRD then applied this rate to all of southern Xinjiang, assessing that “approximately 240,000 rural residents may be detained in ‘re-education’ centers in Kashgar Prefecture, and 660,000 in the larger Southern Xinjiang [area].” This methodology is highly subjective (for obvious reasons), and would be like asking 8 French Muslims how many people in their banlieue they think are being held in a French prison, then multiplying throughout to achieve a preconceived number that plays well with the media.
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Mar 26, 2019 13:34
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Fojar38 posted:Most of China's geopolitical woes right now were brought about by Xi, who has a highly nationalist (and imperialist) vision of China's future, at least going by the rhetoric. Hu may have done similar stuff in Xinjiang but absent a Belt and Road propaganda offensive it may not have brought about the international attention that it has now (and subsequent circling of the wagons by the CCP regarding the Uyghurs.) I don't know if there would have been a trade war if Hu was in charge as he was far more interested in maintaining positive relations with the USA than he was in trying to build a "China strong" international image and behave really really blatantly economically predatory (emphasis on blatant because China's economic policy has always been one-sided.) I forget but aren't you the same poster who thought China shouldn't be building trains because they were too good at it?
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Mar 26, 2019 14:17
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I mean the French Muslim population is also going to be incarcerated at higher levels, because of racism, even though they only make up something like 12% of Frances population. The Uighyr situation is similar, they're only something like 1.5% of China's population. Why focus so much policing and correction elements in a predominantly minority area?
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Mar 26, 2019 14:26
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Grapplejack posted:Why focus so much policing and correction elements in a predominantly minority area? Why are there so many US backed terrorists back from their spring break in Syria and Libya? Basically, Americans have no problem with Islamic terrorism (unless you're OBL and start biting the hands that feed you), especially when its being perpetrated in other countries.
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Mar 26, 2019 14:41
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Raenir Salazar posted:I forget but aren't you the same poster who thought China shouldn't be building trains because they were too good at it? Nope, whoever that was wasn't me. Not sure what it has to do with the topic at hand though.
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Mar 27, 2019 02:22
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Fojar38 posted:Not sure what it has to do with the topic at hand though. Hey I was wondering, in somewhat recent history what are some tragedies committed by Chinese people against non-Chinese people? Off the top of my head all I can think of is the February 28th incident, but I don't know how many people killed in that were Taiwanese natives. Tibetans and Uighers are the obvious ones but they would be "Chinese". Maybe there aren't any, but I have a feeling there are. I'm wondering cuz I was told some "white people are essentially violent towards others, also other kinds of Asians are essentially violent towards others, but Chinese aren't." stuff.
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Mar 27, 2019 05:41
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BrainDance posted:Really? I mean a quote like that isn't exactly hard to counter so I don't think it matters? Not sure what you're really looking for. China has objectively started fewer wars than US and Russia but obviously that can't be boiled down to just "peaceful". If you're just looking for aggression there's the Sino-Indian and Sino-Vietnamese wars I guess.
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Mar 27, 2019 05:58
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:Why are there so many US backed terrorists back from their spring break in Syria and Libya? i agree, the united states should incarcerate conservative Muslims until they adhere to civilized norms and are no longer a threat to the dominant cultural paradigm
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Mar 27, 2019 06:13
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Redmark posted:I mean a quote like that isn't exactly hard to counter so I don't think it matters? Not sure what you're really looking for. I'm not trying to counter it, the actual conversation wasn't worth my time. I was just thinking about it. The argument assumes essential characteristics to races, and was that all races besides Han Chinese naturally commit atrocities towards other races. And the evidence is "look at all the atrocities this people have committed, and this people, etc. But Han Chinese would never do that to non-Chinese people." The person who said it was very fuzzy about what it means to be Chinese. I thought "Is their evidence even really close to right?" because of 228. I wasn't really considering wars, tbh. Wars are too defensible.
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Mar 27, 2019 06:30
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BrainDance posted:Really? The Boxer Rebellion.
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Mar 27, 2019 06:34
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BrainDance posted:I'm not trying to counter it, the actual conversation wasn't worth my time. I was just thinking about it. The argument assumes essential characteristics to races, and was that all races besides Han Chinese naturally commit atrocities towards other races. And the evidence is "look at all the atrocities this people have committed, and this people, etc. But Han Chinese would never do that to non-Chinese people." The person who said it was very fuzzy about what it means to be Chinese. I thought "Is their evidence even really close to right?" because of 228. please cite one single solitary case of the Han mistreating a subject race you can't
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Mar 27, 2019 06:34
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 27, 2019 06:40
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A buddy spent some time in Mongolia and he said they hate Chinese intensely, don't so much mind Russians. I assumed the context was how they were treated while subjugated, but I don't know enough to back it up.
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Mar 27, 2019 07:09
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My favorite way that the Mongolians dislike about the Chinese is that they think the Chinese food is "yucky". When I was a tour guide running 2-day Niagara Falls cheap bus tour, I had a group of 5-6 Mongolians. They really didn't look like Chinese and I thought they were from East Europe. I could tell they didn't care about a Chinese tour guide. I explained to them that the "guide tips" was entirely optional and they didn't have to tip us. They had a very intense discussion between themselves and tipped us. That's my only Mongolian story.
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Mar 27, 2019 12:20
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Mongolia was traditionally aligned with the Soviet Union and even today you can see a significant about of influence from Russia on consumerism and daily life. (Granted a lot of Americans are surprised to meet Asians from Siberia and find how assimilated they are in to Russian society. Recently there were riots in Yakutia against Central Asian immigrants by both Russians and Yakuts.)
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Mar 27, 2019 12:59
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Redmark posted:China has objectively started fewer wars than US and Russia but obviously that can't be boiled down to just "peaceful". If you're just looking for aggression there's the Sino-Indian and Sino-Vietnamese wars I guess. Are we not doing 5,000 years of history any more or?
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Mar 27, 2019 13:41
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Barudak posted:Are we not doing 5,000 years of history any more or? kicks tapestry depicting the Ten Great Campaigns under the bed
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Mar 27, 2019 13:55
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So like why are Taiwan and Inner Mongolia and Manchuria and Ningxia and East Turkestan and Tibet and Everything Besides the Yellow River Valley part of China(s) now??
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Mar 27, 2019 14:25
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By right of conquest, see Robert Baratheon.
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Mar 27, 2019 14:29
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Bloodnose posted:So like why are Taiwan and Inner Mongolia and Manchuria and Ningxia and East Turkestan and Tibet and Everything Besides the Yellow River Valley part of China(s) now??
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Mar 27, 2019 14:39
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Bloodnose posted:So like why are Taiwan and Inner Mongolia and Manchuria and Ningxia and East Turkestan and Tibet and Everything Besides the Yellow River Valley part of China(s) now?? Every great power in like 1918 wanted China to be a fairly stable but not too powerful country that would buy their stuff. Having the country be the Qing Dynasty: Now Under New Management was the easiest way to do it. Mongolia (or half of it, anyway) managed to get out and stay out with support from the USSR, Taiwan ditto with US support
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Mar 27, 2019 14:52
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In other news, Lu Wei, the former deputy head of the Propaganda Department and former head of the Cyberspace Administration of China, has been sentenced to 14 years in prison for bribery. You all may remember him from the NYTimes piece done on his visit to the US in 2014, where he was wined and dined by the Silicon Valley types but some political leaders were more skeptical. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/12/08/a-trip-to-california-for-chinas-internet-czar/  Grouchio posted:The Qing Dynasty conquered all of them in the 18th century. Which included a genocide of the Dzunghars in Xinjiang. There was that outraged rant by some guy in the CASS who said that modern historical studies of the Qing Dynasty, Manchu identity, and Qing Dynasty's military campaigns were Western imperialism. Don't ask me how you do those intellectual gymnastics. Here is the whole thing but I can't be assed to translate it.
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Mar 27, 2019 14:54
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GreyjoyBastard posted:please cite one single solitary case of the Han mistreating a subject race I have had enough dumb conversations with Chinese nationalists to fear that you might actually be serious. sincx posted:While it is true that those who identify as Han spent a lot more of their energy killing each other than those outside of that self-identified group, I think you can attribute that more to circumstance than some innate characteristic. Han identity is also more like whiteness than it is like Englishness. This is a nebulous thing to define that has been constantly killing, subjugating, displacing, intermixing, and assimilating other cultures and ethnic groups over the course of thousands of years. The Han obviously viewed the Baiyue as many different tribes of people, but most modern Cantonese people simply think of themselves as undeniably Han regardless if that history gets preserved in museums. This conveniently allows for anarchonistic claims like “those who identify as Han spent a lot more of energy killing each other” when it took a long time for the demographics in newly conquered territory to change and for the Han to accept the various native tribes as “Han”. tino posted:My favorite way that the Mongolians dislike about the Chinese is that they think the Chinese food is "yucky". Lol. My only Mongolian story is that years ago, I had a roommate who immigrated to the US from Inner Mongolia, and he very proudly identified as both Mongolian and Chinese. Dude was very charming and slept around with quite a few of neighbors to the point where we had to warn him if we ever saw some of them doing laundry in our apartment building. He also got his visa to the US by seeing some shady immigration lawyer who coached him on how to pretend like he was religiously persecuted.
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Mar 27, 2019 15:39
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Redmark posted:I mean a quote like that isn't exactly hard to counter so I don't think it matters? Not sure what you're really looking for. I'll grant you Vietnam even if there's some intra-comintern conflict context for it, but India started the Sino-Indian conflict gambling that China couldn't fight a serious conflict that high up and figured they had an effective fait accompli and got very effectively bounced by Chinese Korean war veteran mountaineers.
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Mar 27, 2019 18:50
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Barudak posted:Are we not doing 5,000 years of history any more or? The question was about recent history  Y'all really take any chance you get to flex. Raenir Salazar posted:I'll grant you Vietnam even if there's some intra-comintern conflict context for it, but India started the Sino-Indian conflict gambling that China couldn't fight a serious conflict that high up and figured they had an effective fait accompli and got very effectively bounced by Chinese Korean war veteran mountaineers. I don't actually know much about the Sino-Indian war so I'll take your word for it. All I remember is that Nehru apparently felt really betrayed and it sunk relations with India so probably not worth it.
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Mar 28, 2019 07:07
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Mar 28, 2019 08:16
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Redmark posted:I don't actually know much about the Sino-Indian war so I'll take your word for it. Relations weren't really all that good to begin, Nehru was one person and like many strongmen leaders had some fanciful notions that weren't entirely mired in reality and waffled back and forth between notions of an Asian Axis between India and China and distrusting Zhou Enlai.
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Mar 28, 2019 13:31
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sincx posted:Exactly, which is why I said "those who identify as Han." My family is from a part of Guangdong not far from Hong Kong, and I can confirm that one DNA database identified my sister as being more closely related to the Vietnamese than to the Beijingers. Our parents were not amused although it seems obvious to me that this would be the case for many if not most Cantonese people.
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Mar 29, 2019 10:18
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My theory is the group of people who lived in Pearl delta about 2000 years ago got pushed by the northerners and a lot of them migrated to (north) Vietnam. And the people who live around Guangzhou today has more Northerner (Han) intermixing. Notice how authentic "Cantonese" is only spoken around Guangzhou and other part of Guangdong/Guangxi speak different dialects/languages. Cantonese is also a more faithful descendants of Middle Chinese. The northern part of SEA also went through a process of changing from toneless languages to tonal languages. This will be pretty clear when China has more extended national DNA survey. tino fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Mar 29, 2019 |
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Mar 29, 2019 11:02
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The connection between language and genetics is sketchy as hell, though. Especially when you're talking about an hypothetical population replacement that happened around 200 AD.
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Mar 29, 2019 11:39
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