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I was wondering if I could get an informed opinion of Clause 4 from some OG Labour supporters ITT? I hear a lot from a group of people who want the original Clause 4 to be reinstated, but wonder if this is A: Important B: Something that could cause instability in the party.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:06
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| # ? Jun 11, 2024 18:54 |
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Irate backbenchers have the best takes: https://twitter.com/rosschawkins/status/1111668336692203520
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Mar 29, 2019 19:08
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Blair rewriting it was pretty symbolic of him being a neolib poo poo. It's a symbolic thing all round, really, but if it could be reinstated that would definitely be the left wing of the party doing a big sweaty teabag on the right wing.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:09
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Azza Bamboo posted:I was wondering if I could get an informed opinion of Clause 4 from some OG Labour supporters ITT? I hear a lot from a group of people who want the original Clause 4 to be reinstated, but wonder if this is A: Important B: Something that could cause instability in the party. As someone who unironically believes in the eventual abolition of private property clause 4 is extremely cool and good
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Mar 29, 2019 19:10
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OwlFancier posted:Civil war I guess. Nothing recent really, unless you count mining strikes or the riots in... 2011 was it? 2011 wasn't really a political riot (well it had political causes but there wasn't any ideology beyond "smash poo poo, nick stuff"). For political riots going back from the present you've got the anti-austerity marches of 2010/11, the various May Day protests and some of the periphery of Occupy, arguably the Iraq War protests, the Poll Tax riots of course... we've got some history of political violence in this country, just not any particular record of it working (where's General China to argue about the outcome of the Poll Tax riots when you need him?)
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Mar 29, 2019 19:10
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Yeah that's the thing about 2011 it wasn't really organized, everyone seemingly just got a bit fed up and decided to break poo poo. Bit weird. Political causes as you say cos the government was shite but no real unified political front to the violence. I'd not personally class protests as violence, cos they don't work. If they were violent they probably would work better, but without the threat the government can and does just ignore them.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:12
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2011 Riots were something to do with police brutality IIRC. If your law enforcement is the thing you're up in arms against then you're not going to give a poo poo about staying inside of the safety fencing and going down the prescribed route.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:15
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OwlFancier posted:Whether or not mass violence against the state happens has nothing to do with either of us, though, is the point. Not nothing, maybe not much but not nothing (may involve leaving house and keyboard). If you really believe that why the gently caress do you keep pissing and moaning about how all the 'dumb' voters got it wrong? Nothing you or they do will make any difference anyway by your philosophy. Combat Theory posted:Does the UK actually have any kind of history with massive political uproar and violence outside of northern Ireland which I think would be pretty hard to compare to street fights in front of Westminster? How far back do you want to go? There's been some biggish riots but never anything to compare with say '68 in Paris or what RAF or the Italians got up to for quite a bit. e:clarification EmptyVessel fucked around with this message at 19:18 on Mar 29, 2019 |
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Mar 29, 2019 19:15
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Azza Bamboo posted:2011 Riots were something to do with police brutality IIRC. If your law enforcement is the thing you're up in arms against then you're not going to give a poo poo about staying inside of the safety fencing and going down the prescribed route. yeah, mark duggan. pretty sure nothing ever happened to the cops about that (as you'd expect)
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Mar 29, 2019 19:16
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah that's the thing about 2011 it wasn't really organized, everyone seemingly just got a bit fed up and decided to break poo poo. Bit weird. Political causes as you say cos the government was shite but no real unified political front to the violence. truly massive protests are a sign that something is profoundly unpopular in a career-defining way amd risks burning an awful lot of voters since you don't get that big without a feeling of betrayal smaller protests are mostly just networking opportunities though yeah, but that is also important political work
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Mar 29, 2019 19:16
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EmptyVessel posted:Not nothing, maybe not much but not nothing (may involve leaving house and keyboard). Because it's a descriptor of the state of the world that people are systemically incapable of making the correct decisions. Decisions matter, but on aggregate they are controlled by systemic factors that override any notion of individual choice. And it's annoying to watch, so I whinge about it.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:18
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Azza Bamboo posted:2011 Riots were something to do with police brutality IIRC. If your law enforcement is the thing you're up in arms against then you're not going to give a poo poo about staying inside of the safety fencing and going down the prescribed route. Just like the riots of the 80s and early 90s, police brutality was the match but you had a huge pile of kindling that a worse political cartoonist than yourself wouldn't be able to stop themselves marking "cuts to services", "racism", "unemployment", "lack of prospects", etc. Cutting of the EMA was probably the most important individual factor in the sheer scale of the riots because you suddenly had an entire generation of mid-late teenagers who'd been told their only hope of a better life was college/FE and now that was completely out of reach.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:20
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iraq was so shocking in part because blair had basically promised not to do anything unpopular, and the war was a blatant violation of that promise. he bought himself the ideological freedom to mercilessly triangulate and poll-chase with his weird techno-populism, so when he actually took a stand on something it was not well received
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Mar 29, 2019 19:20
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OwlFancier posted:Because it's a descriptor of the state of the world that people are systemically incapable of making the correct decisions. Decisions matter, but on aggregate they are controlled by systemic factors that override any notion of individual choice. I move that your decision to whinge is therefore a priori incorrect. Or would if I accepted your premise, which I do not.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:25
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How did Iraq ever seem like a good idea? I mean I know that Powell burned an entire lifetime of credit and reputation to sell it as "Not a complete disaster" but still.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:25
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Nuclear Spoon posted:yeah, mark duggan. pretty sure nothing ever happened to the cops about that (as you'd expect) Even Plod were surprised by just how far they got away with it - they were expecting at least a manslaughter verdict because it was blatantly obvious that he was unarmed and even the most innocent explanation was an accidental discharge, but nope, the jury not only found that it was a lawful killing, but that Duggan somehow managed to levitate a gun out of the car into some grass over a fence without ever touching it.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:26
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He also stayed prime minister for seven more years so I'm not sure that it was a particularly strong threat at the time.EmptyVessel posted:I move that your decision to whinge is therefore a priori incorrect. Whingeing is the method by which the mind diffuses irritation at a state of affairs which it dislikes but has no method to remedy. It's always correct.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:26
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Weird doesn't he know from this thread that Englishness doesn't actually exist
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Mar 29, 2019 19:27
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah that's the thing about 2011 it wasn't really organized, everyone seemingly just got a bit fed up and decided to break poo poo. Bit weird. Political causes as you say cos the government was shite but no real unified political front to the violence. Almost all political violence starts off as protests, and all of the examples I cited did lead to large-scale violence. The Poll Tax riots and the first May Day protests were probably the largest-scale.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:27
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Azza Bamboo posted:I was wondering if I could get an informed opinion of Clause 4 from some OG Labour supporters ITT? I hear a lot from a group of people who want the original Clause 4 to be reinstated, but wonder if this is A: Important B: Something that could cause instability in the party. I left the party when Blair changed it, and dislike the new version as meaningless piety, but fighting over a sentence is a pointless waste of time. What matters is that we should try to get the message of anticapitalism across to people, to explain to them why capitalism is bad. We can probably do that in better ways than restoring a sacred text.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:28
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Katt posted:How did Iraq ever seem like a good idea? Oil profits?
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Mar 29, 2019 19:29
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Azza Bamboo posted:I was wondering if I could get an informed opinion of Clause 4 from some OG Labour supporters ITT? I hear a lot from a group of people who want the original Clause 4 to be reinstated, but wonder if this is A: Important B: Something that could cause instability in the party. Clause IV refers to part of the Labour Party constitution. The original was penned by Sidney Webb who helped found the London School of Economics, and stated "To secure for the workers by hand or by brain the full fruits of their industry and the most equitable distribution thereof that may be possible upon the basis of the common ownership of the means of production, distribution and exchange, and the best obtainable system of popular administration and control of each industry or service". It was always a symbolic reference to Labour's dedication to socialism & it pretty much always made the Labour right mad and they blamed it for making Labour unelectable. Hugh Gaitskell tried to replace it in 1959, Blair then succeeded 35 years later. I don't think replacing it would be a particularly huge deal though I'm sure that some "grandees" from the Blair years will piss and moan, but who cares? But ultimately action matters more than meaningless words.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:29
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Hentai Jihadist posted:Weird doesn't he know from this thread that Englishness doesn't actually exist Belieiving that it does is a sizeable part of why english nationalists are idiots. They appeal to a non existant homogenaity of some fantasyland notion of england that seems to mostly be about football and that godawful cover of the sun with all the monuments on it.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:31
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OwlFancier posted:Belieiving that it does is a sizeable part of why english nationalists are idiots. ... Lol
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Mar 29, 2019 19:32
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Also my personal theory about why the riots were so widespread in 2011 - based on nothing other than the blatantly obvious evidence of my own eyes - is that Plod deliberately did not attempt to contain the riots on Saturday and particularly on Sunday, and the only reason that makes any sense at all is they were indulging in a very pointed form of protest at the massive cuts Cameron had imposed on them.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:33
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Just like the riots of the 80s and early 90s, police brutality was the match but you had a huge pile of kindling To me the question seemed to be not "what were people angry about?" but "Why did it become a riot that time?" There is still just as much of this fuel piling up in the collective psyche of the downtrodden, but purely as an answer to why this issue became a riot I suggest that it's because we were shown firsthand that the authorities themselves do not uphold their end of the contract, and so why should we when faced with their barricades and their blue line? in English: it's harder to overcome the police when you're not directly angry at them.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:36
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Hentai Jihadist posted:Weird doesn't he know from this thread that Englishness doesn't actually exist What is on display there is a poisonous extreme nationalist ideology. I certainly didn't claim those don't exist. Don't be so loving facile.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:36
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OwlFancier posted:Belieiving that it does is a sizeable part of why english nationalists are idiots. They appeal to a non existant homogenaity of some fantasyland notion of england that seems to mostly be about football and that godawful cover of the sun with all the monuments on it. Nobody is an idiot because they're a nationalist. They're nationalists because they're idiots.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:38
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crispix posted:What is on display there is a poisonous extreme nationalist ideology. I certainly didn't claim those don't exist. Don't be so loving facile. Not even sure who you are mate, sorry
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Mar 29, 2019 19:39
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Don't these fash marches usually have some form of counter-protest going somewhere nearby? Previous ones have always been small and outnumbered by the counterprotesters. These idiots having free reign is really worrying.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:40
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Jedit posted:Nobody is an idiot because they're a nationalist. They're nationalists because they're idiots. I'd suggest that there isn't so much a causal relationship there as they're just comorbid.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:40
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OwlFancier posted:Whingeing is the method by which the mind diffuses irritation at a state of affairs which it dislikes but has no method to remedy. So even you don't accept your premise. Nice to see you're getting practiced at shaking your fist at impotently clouds I guess. You'll be a grumpy old git before your time. Me, I'd rather re-invent the umbrella from stuff in my closet. E: Azza Bamboo posted:To me the question seemed to be not "what were people angry about?" but "Why did it become a riot that time?" There is still just as much of this fuel piling up in the collective psyche of the downtrodden, but purely as an answer to why this issue became a riot I suggest that it's because we were shown firsthand that the authorities themselves do not uphold their end of the contract, and so why should we when faced with their barricades and their blue line? I had friends in both Brixton and Toxteth riots and something that I think might be a factor in the same fuel piling up on similar underclass but not getting the same result is that it is easier to mobilise as a community when you have a direct connection to your physical neighbours, these days so much of communal life is done online that there's a lack of that immediate connection to the guys next door and downstairs. Certainly my friend who was in Brixton said that you could just feel the energy of the whole thing growing as people slipped from house to house passing on speculation and anger until it reached a critical mass and just went. May be bollocks and I'm not explaining it well I think but... tldr: Find your local allies in real space. EmptyVessel fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Mar 29, 2019 |
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Mar 29, 2019 19:41
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Also my personal theory about why the riots were so widespread in 2011 - based on nothing other than the blatantly obvious evidence of my own eyes - is that Plod deliberately did not attempt to contain the riots on Saturday and particularly on Sunday, and the only reason that makes any sense at all is they were indulging in a very pointed form of protest at the massive cuts Cameron had imposed on them. I honestly don't think enough was made of this because the inability of the state to control the police was frankly too scary to publicise.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:45
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How's brexit going I thought it was today
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Mar 29, 2019 19:47
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Azza Bamboo posted:To me the question seemed to be not "what were people angry about?" but "Why did it become a riot that time?" There is still just as much of this fuel piling up in the collective psyche of the downtrodden, but purely as an answer to why this issue became a riot I suggest that it's because we were shown firsthand that the authorities themselves do not uphold their end of the contract, and so why should we when faced with their barricades and their blue line? The match and kindling metaphor still applies - you need a specific incident to get enough heat to ignite the rest of it. It applies for almost any mass violence, from punch-ups outside nightclubs to large-scale genocide. To my mind, the particular spark *wasn't* the shooting of Duggan itself (police shooting black men for no particular reason isn't as common as the US, thankfully, but still common enough that it tends to end up in the fuel rather than the ignition department). Instead it was the televised and very loving blatant overreaction of Tottenham police to an individual young woman throwing something (some say a leaflet, some a stone, some a bottle - it happened off-camera so nobody's sure) but in what was otherwise a peaceful event ha;f a dozen fully kitted up riot cops swarmed her, beat the poo poo out of her, and dragged her off*. That's the sort of thing that makes people angry enough to riot, and then of course it becomes self-sustaining. * intriguingly the professional footage, shown multiple times on TV that evening, seems to be entirely gone from Youtube, only mobile phone footage that could show anything is left.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:47
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SSJ_naruto_2003 posted:How's brexit going I thought it was today
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Mar 29, 2019 19:50
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brexit is now every day for eternity
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Mar 29, 2019 19:51
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Nuclear Spoon posted:brexit is now every day for eternity Cheers
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Mar 29, 2019 19:52
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Hentai Jihadist posted:Not even sure who you are mate, sorry Sorry I thought you were referring to the discussion that touched on this yesterday that you took part in, albeit with posts much like those you are making now.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:53
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Brexit is on the 12th April unless parliament can come up with a consensus as to what to do and pass a motion telling May to ask for an extension so it can be implemented. Well, it won't be that simple, but theoretically that's the gist.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:53
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