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Fat Samurai posted:Not if you finance the car, then you can consider VAT a expenditure that you spread over the life of the loan, by transforming the entire thing into sort of a rental. Alternatively, annual depreciation of the car (an asset) will mean less taxes anyways (that's the expenditure, not the initial purchase), although this isn't related to VAT in particular. I see. So if I understand you correctly, purchase a car directly, the input VAT gets reimbursed but if I rent the car instead, the input VAT on the cash amount I pay is transformed does not get reimbursed and that way becomes an expenditure lowering my profit and therefore the tax base? (Disregarding the capitalization and depreciation of the asset, because that seems like it is only a timing effect.)
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Mar 27, 2019 13:23
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Dawncloack posted:I mean..... mistaking if it be called so because how long do you have to gently caress up till it's malice? Let's be real, it's never been a mistake. They know exactly what they are doing because their platform is simple and effective: 1. More money for us. 2. gently caress you.
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Mar 27, 2019 13:57
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Randler posted:I see. So if I understand you correctly, purchase a car directly, the input VAT gets reimbursed but if I rent the car instead, the input VAT on the cash amount I pay is transformed does not get reimbursed and that way becomes an expenditure lowering my profit and therefore the tax base? (Disregarding the capitalization and depreciation of the asset, because that seems like it is only a timing effect.) A business charges VAT to their customers for what they sell, both other businesses and individuals. At the end of the month they subtract the VAT they paid for purchases and costs and send the difference to the state. VAT does not affect their business at all except for the administrative burden of collecting it (and reduced demand maybe). Buying a car as a business will save them the VAT, pretty much straight up. For that reason (in the Netherlands at least) there are a lot of rules and extra taxes around using a company car privately, but from what I hear this may be a lot less in other countries.
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Mar 27, 2019 14:21
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Cerv posted:You picked two examples, bread and milk, which are zero rated in the UK. And I'm certainly in favour of zero-rating food staples and basic needs. My point was that any increase in VAT for basic goods will scale for an equivalently sized household, but only up to a point. I'm not going to set the heat to 45c, or pay 100 euros for a loaf of bread just because I'm taking home 150k. So every increase in income past a certain point will just mean more discretionary income to me, and any increase in the costs of nondiscretionary items, be it through price raises or VAT increase, will hurt me substantially less than if I were making 25k. (I don't think we disagree on this) Randler posted:I don't really understand how that is supposed to work.
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Mar 27, 2019 14:58
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Hambilderberglar posted:Take a self employed person in the Netherlands. You get a kleinschaligheidsaftrek (deduction) worth 10k. You buy yourself a nice new motorcycle, claim vat back as it's a business expense, deduct the post-VAT price of the motorcycle from your income, depreciate it over five years and then sell it to yourself for the accounting value of the bike (very little). Congrats on your VAT-free and heavily discounted motorcycle. If you can set up a private limited you can get even bigger fiscal advantages, but you need (obviously) a lot more money than 10k to make it worth it. Thanks for explaining, although that seems to be very reliant on the tax situation in the Netherland and not on the (European) VAT system itself. Because in Germany, for example, that would not work. (Unless you count "I'll just lie about stuff", but that theoretically works for everything until you're caught.) Edit: And regarding the VAT aspects, I'm not sure what the Netherlands are doing is compliant with the Art. 16 and 72 of directive 2006/112/EC 28 November 2006, because that should make the second sell subject to VAT on the basis of a FMV regardless of the bike being sold at only the accounting value. 
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Mar 27, 2019 15:10
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Hambilderberglar posted:And I'm certainly in favour of zero-rating food staples and basic needs. My point was that any increase in VAT for basic goods will scale for an equivalently sized household, but only up to a point. I'm not going to set the heat to 45c, or pay 100 euros for a loaf of bread just because I'm taking home 150k. So every increase in income past a certain point will just mean more discretionary income to me, and any increase in the costs of nondiscretionary items, be it through price raises or VAT increase, will hurt me substantially less than if I were making 25k. (I don't think we disagree on this) Of course with business expenses you can really make some real magic happen especially if you're willing to cheat a bit.
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Mar 27, 2019 16:37
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The Forum for Democracy (the crypto-fascist party that just won a plurality of seats in the regional elections in the Netherlands) have started up a 'snitch-line' where students and pupils can report their professors/teachers for perceived leftist indoctrination. https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/03/pupils-urged-to-report-left-wing-indoctrination-to-forum-hotline/ It's horrifying how quickly this country is barrelling towards Spain and Italy-levels of open authoritarianism. I was already bummed out when the FvD scored a big win last week, but now I'm genuinely scared.
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Mar 27, 2019 18:49
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Took less than a week. Literally yesterday the whole media and political sphere was going "poor Thierry" (leader of the FvD) due to a 21 year old woman singing she wanted to shoot this motherfucker during an Antifa protest in Amsterdam last saturday. We used to give out medals for shooting fascists for fucks sake.
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Mar 27, 2019 18:57
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Randler posted:Thanks for explaining, although that seems to be very reliant on the tax situation in the Netherland and not on the (European) VAT system itself. Because in Germany, for example, that would not work. (Unless you count "I'll just lie about stuff", but that theoretically works for everything until you're caught.) You are also right that the second sale (from company to personal property) is subject to VAT being charged by the company. VAT-Free was a misnomer. However, assuming you're depreciating over 4 to 5 years, FMV on the day of sale is liable to be substantially lower than the new value, so you will be able to realise significant VAT savings, on top of the (income)tax savings you were able to take advantage of every year you depreciated the asset. That's assuming you even want to transfer at all, which shouldn't strictly be necessary unless the "company", such as it is, is closing up shop and has to liquidate its possessions. Nothing is stopping you from driving the motorcycle as a company asset until the cows come home. mobby_6kl posted:You're not buying 100EUR bread (which would be, like most basic goods, at lower rate or exempt altogether anyway) but you might be buying a 100k car while a poor person might get a 5k used car without any VAT. So really the only part you won't pay VAT on would be your savings and investments. Not disputing that it affects poor people more but it's probably not as skewed as everyone tends to think.
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Mar 27, 2019 19:18
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Fat Samurai posted:Not if you finance the car, then you can consider VAT a expenditure that you spread over the life of the loan, by transforming the entire thing into sort of a rental. Alternatively, annual depreciation of the car (an asset) will mean less taxes anyways (that's the expenditure, not the initial purchase), although this isn't related to VAT in particular. brb, registering small company
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Mar 27, 2019 19:49
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JordanKai posted:The Forum for Democracy (the crypto-fascist party that just won a plurality of seats in the regional elections in the Netherlands) have started up a 'snitch-line' where students and pupils can report their professors/teachers for perceived leftist indoctrination. There's no way this isn't going to be pranked to oblivion
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Mar 28, 2019 10:56
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JordanKai posted:The Forum for Democracy (the crypto-fascist party that just won a plurality of seats in the regional elections in the Netherlands) have started up a 'snitch-line' where students and pupils can report their professors/teachers for perceived leftist indoctrination. Brazilian fascists do the same thing
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Mar 29, 2019 09:41
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JordanKai posted:The Forum for Democracy (the crypto-fascist party that just won a plurality of seats in the regional elections in the Netherlands) have started up a 'snitch-line' where students and pupils can report their professors/teachers for perceived leftist indoctrination. How the gently caress is this legal? How the gently caress does a country go from zero to fash in less than a week and we are not even in a recession yet?
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Mar 29, 2019 09:48
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AceOfFlames posted:How the gently caress is this legal? How the gently caress does a country go from zero to fash in less than a week and we are not even in a recession yet? The idea that we started at zero is nonsense. Few countries were as accommodating to the Nazis.
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Mar 29, 2019 09:53
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Who owns the newspapers in the Netherlands? Are you like the UK in that the largest ones are owned by foreign fascists?
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Mar 29, 2019 10:07
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required reading: https://twitter.com/L_deJonge/status/1078984209073668096 or to summarize in a nice infograph:  basically when your gatekeepers respond in "oooh, controversy, let's place it front-page and really give a spotlight to it. But don't critique it, that wouldn't be neutral and balanced" you get a rise of fascist parties.
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Mar 29, 2019 10:15
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Gort posted:Who owns the newspapers in the Netherlands? Are you like the UK in that the largest ones are owned by foreign fascists? Oh, they don't own the media, but they hate it too. They don't want you to believe the media, they don't want you to believe experts on climate change and they don't want to you to "influenced" by your teacher. It's kind of like Trump in that they don't want you to listen to to any form of critical thought, clearly you should only listen to them! A big issue in province of Groningen has been the gas exploration over there. People have suffered from cracks forming and their houses being damaged, and all the stress and trauma which came with it. Throughout the years, the government was both slow and (originally) inadequate in their response. They also feel that the money gained from the gas drilling has not been spent on the province at all. I think the FvD is the only party who would want to continue the drilling, which is completely in line with their general response to climate: "it's not that big of a deal!". I'm still amazed at that, because it's such an opportunity to poo poo on the current government coalition and yet they're already starting to reveal that they don't care about common people. I hope that will end up biting them in the rear end, but it's a question if it really will. Mierenneuker fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Mar 29, 2019 |
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Mar 29, 2019 10:55
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Even in the villages most affected by the man-caused earthquakes (due to the gas being extracted in the area) the FvD became the 4th largest party, and the socialist party, the party most visibly and clearly trying to help the people in the area by shutting down the gas extraction and getting the people affected a solid and fair compensation scheme saw their voter share greatly reduced. It's completely insane what is happening.
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Mar 29, 2019 11:00
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Orange Devil posted:Even in the villages most affected by the man-caused earthquakes (due to the gas being extracted in the area) the FvD became the 4th largest party, and the socialist party, the party most visibly and clearly trying to help the people in the area by shutting down the gas extraction and getting the people affected a solid and fair compensation scheme saw their voter share greatly reduced. The world is going to burn because of idiots.
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Mar 29, 2019 12:14
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If people in the Netherlands don't educate themselves on what the parties stand for and only go by what they see on t.v. or in the papers they will vote more and more right. This is because the news, especially on television either in an effort to remain 'unbiased' or because they are being bought out by rightwingers, will go way more critical on a leftwing than a rightwing politician. And rightwing groups get a lot more airtime anyway. Before an election I'll see 2-3 FvD or PVV as before I see a single SP one.
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Mar 29, 2019 12:30
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dutch media seems awful
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Mar 29, 2019 12:37
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That's hardly Dutch media, that's media. Big surprise, capital owners buy media and then the media spouts their propaganda. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?? It's the thing that kills me most of the conspiracy nuts that I encounter on a regular basis. There's this big conspiracy to fool people and, what a coincidence, their lines (moosleeems get all the benefits, there are no go zones, The conspiracy is right there to be seen YOU MORONS!! ... I gotta go outside for a bit.
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Mar 29, 2019 13:02
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I know there's already a Scandithread, but I'd like to draw some attention to this, because it's so loving heinous and illustrates how far Denmark has slid into insanity. Three facilities housing refugees—Sandholm, Ellebæk and Sjælsmark, the latter housing families with small children—are situated right in the middle of army training grounds. Nearly every day there's continuous gunfire and explosions echoing throughout the area. Much like denying them access to refrigeration and ensuring the cafeteria serves barely edible slop, this is absolutely deliberate, meant to force them to return to Syria or wherever. A lot of these people have severe PTSD, many are suicidal, including some of the 93 children housed there. 70 are from countries that won't receive them, 24 were actually born here, and majority of them have remained in this hell for over a year. It's incredible that this doesn't qualify as torture. https://twitter.com/24syv/status/1110851949849726976 A soldier with PTSD gives his opinion at the end of the clip. He says the torture of children is "a little naughty". Orange Devil posted:Even in the villages most affected by the man-caused earthquakes (due to the gas being extracted in the area) the FvD became the 4th largest party, and the socialist party, the party most visibly and clearly trying to help the people in the area by shutting down the gas extraction and getting the people affected a solid and fair compensation scheme saw their voter share greatly reduced. Seems like the problem will eventually solve itself. SplitSoul fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Mar 29, 2019 |
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Mar 29, 2019 13:03
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SplitSoul posted:A soldier with PTSD gives his opinion at the end of the clip. He says the torture of children is "a little naughty". A normal person wouldn't use those specific words; he's going out of his way to use them, and it's maddening. The placement of those camps has to be deliberate, right? Only evil can make something like this happen; normal circumstances would've caught it, surely. Normal feels so long ago.
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Mar 29, 2019 13:30
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THE BAR posted:A normal person wouldn't use those specific words; he's going out of his way to use them, and it's maddening. Of course. The food situation is deliberate and part of a political settlement reached under the previous government, it's meant to be intolerable, so there's no reason to think that placing not one, not two, but three facilities in the area is accidental - children weren't supposed to be housed there until Støjberg took over, though.
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Mar 29, 2019 14:05
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Denmark legit seems like the most far right country in the EU outside of like, Hungary and maybe Poland? And it flies completely under the radar or is even used as a shining example, like with your insane laws to punish certain people (it's brown people) harsher for the same crime.
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Mar 29, 2019 14:33
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Oh don't worry. The opposition is slated to win next election. Shame they both run the exact same politics, one's just being more smug about it.
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Mar 29, 2019 14:36
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Orange Devil posted:Denmark legit seems like the most far right country in the EU outside of like, Hungary and maybe Poland? Croatia. We have state-funded holocaust deniers promoting their books in catholic churches, women getting abortions without anesthetics because every available anesthesiologist had a "conscientious objection" to the procedure, police beating up migrants and stealing their cell phones, list goes on and on and on.
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Mar 29, 2019 16:10
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Gervasius posted:Croatia. We have state-funded holocaust deniers promoting their books in catholic churches, women getting abortions without anesthetics because every available anesthesiologist had a "conscientious objection" to the procedure, police beating up migrants and stealing their cell phones, list goes on and on and on. Eh. Besides the catholic church being bad that's not that far on the scale of terrible things in the modern world. I mean at least you have abortions in the first place, for one.
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Mar 29, 2019 16:56
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Gervasius posted:Croatia. We have state-funded holocaust deniers promoting their books in catholic churches, women getting abortions without anesthetics because every available anesthesiologist had a "conscientious objection" to the procedure, police beating up migrants and stealing their cell phones, list goes on and on and on. I don't think Croatia is even in the upper (righter?) third.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:25
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My experience with VAt In Portugal is that it punishes the poor and makes them pay more in taxes just to live, but in America where I am right now sales taxes and the various stealth taxes added to everything can be worse than VAT as places don't advertise prices with tax but without, so the price of everything automatically gets jacked up at checkout and most poor people won't see it, it also happens to have the same issue as VAT of penalizing the poor for simply existing.
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Mar 29, 2019 19:46
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Gort posted:Who owns the newspapers in the Netherlands? Are you like the UK in that the largest ones are owned by foreign fascists? The largest newspaper (De Telegraaf) is literally the one that published Nazi propaganda during WW2. They were officially banned for 30 years but this was unfortunately overturned a lot earlier. They also own and operate a bunch of Breitbart-lites, . Again, the Netherland has more than enough native fascist to not require foreign imports or influence.
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Mar 29, 2019 20:29
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Celexi posted:My experience with VAt In Portugal is that it punishes the poor and makes them pay more in taxes just to live, but in America where I am right now sales taxes and the various stealth taxes added to everything can be worse than VAT as places don't advertise prices with tax but without, so the price of everything automatically gets jacked up at checkout and most poor people won't see it, it also happens to have the same issue as VAT of penalizing the poor for simply existing. Yeah, if the choices are between a tax that jacks up all prices at the store and a slightly lower one is deliberately left off the price tag and you only see when you actually pay, I will take the former any day of the week. It's particularly insidious if you are a tourist: "Wow, this jacket is SO much cheaper than back home! ...oh".
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Mar 29, 2019 22:18
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No idea what on earth the "stealth taxes" are supposed to be, but if you're visiting a new place you can just look up what the tax rates will be. Laws about sales tax regions tend to make it impossible to advertise prices with tax in, and if your shelf prices don't match the advertised prices it's easy to get in the poo poo with the authorities. So it's way simpler to just advertise the price as the price and the several different tax rates in any major metropolitan area will be applied locally. Products that don't get advertised in price at all (usually cuz its illegal) like fuel, alcohol, tobacco etc just get their prices listed at the sales location with the taxes in. Same deal with vending machines. AceOfFlames posted:Yeah, if the choices are between a tax that jacks up all prices at the store and a slightly lower one is deliberately left off the price tag and you only see when you actually pay, I will take the former any day of the week. Sure seems stupid to demand you pay easily 3x-4x higher tax rates on your purchases rather than remember "i'm in x place, the rate is y here". Especially on something like a jacket where in a lot of places you'd pay 0% tax, or would only be subject to task if was already very high cost or contained real fur...
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Mar 29, 2019 22:34
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That's why you do your shopping in Oregon on the west coast and NH on the East. I never noticed, are there different rates of sales tax based on types of product (in the same jurisdiction)? As I mentioned before, VAT is usually significantly lower or absent for most necessities.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:37
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fishmech posted:Sure seems stupid to demand you pay easily 3x-4x higher tax rates on your purchases rather than remember "i'm in x place, the rate is y here". The "Stealth" part of it comes from the fact it isn't advertised, nor is it on the shelf but added on at the till at the end. Compared to most countries where the post-tax price is already on the shelf where the actual rate of sales tax is immaterial as you already know what the gross cost to yourself will be. A 500ml bottle of soda with a £1.50 price tag is going to cost you £1.50 regardless if where you're staying has a sales tax on soft drinks or not. This makes budgeting much easier compared to an additional charge and if you're not focused on the shopping for a myriad of reasons, the tax being added on at the end can screw you over. Going back to the example you quoted, the premise was that the Jacket had a price tag that was lower than what it would have cost AoF at home, but actually cost more due to it being a net price instead of gross.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:57
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AceOfFlames posted:It's particularly insidious if you are a tourist: "Wow, this jacket is SO much cheaper than back home! ...oh". Can confirm, as someone who was a tourist in California, and buying a jacket.
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Mar 29, 2019 23:02
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mobby_6kl posted:That's why you do your shopping in Oregon on the west coast and NH on the East. I never noticed, are there different rates of sales tax based on types of product (in the same jurisdiction)? As I mentioned before, VAT is usually significantly lower or absent for most necessities. Yes most states/cities have categories of goods that have no tax at all. There's all kinds of exceptions, the most common by far being groceries and prescription medication. Then in decreasing likelihood are intangible services, non-prescription medication/medical supplies, and clothing. As I mentioned before places where clothing ordinarily has no tax often impose the tax again on items sufficiently expensive or containing fur - NJ taxes all fur-containing items at the regular sales tax rate but no other clothes, New York meanwhile only taxes items that individually cost over $110. You also have things like cities choosing to tax certain sugary drinks but not others at an additional rate or other things like that, but those will be consistent across the tax jurisdiction involved. Finally, most states have some sort of provision to grant reduced state-level sales tax rates to designated areas or subsets of a city's area, usually with a goal of encouraging business in some manner of hard-off area. So many towns and cities have a lower prevailing tax rate in one part of themselves and usually some manner of new shopping complex has been built there specifically for it. Of course, businesses in those areas make sure you know about it:   Manic_Misanthrope posted:The "Stealth" part of it comes from the fact it isn't advertised, nor is it on the shelf but added on at the till at the end. Compared to most countries where the post-tax price is already on the shelf where the actual rate of sales tax is immaterial as you already know what the gross cost to yourself will be. A 500ml bottle of soda with a £1.50 price tag is going to cost you £1.50 regardless if where you're staying has a sales tax on soft drinks or not. This makes budgeting much easier compared to an additional charge and if you're not focused on the shopping for a myriad of reasons, the tax being added on at the end can screw you over. Yeah see that's not stealth. It's widely publicly known, outside the relatively tiny amount of foreigners who show up and also have not heard about taxes? Places with no sales tax or reduced tax actively advertise the fact too. Budgeting isn't hard either. Because again, people know that sales tax exist and can do basic math. Besides to go with the 500 ml coke bottle analogy, you don't expect to pay a uniform price even before the taxes, unless you're going to a specific store that advertised the price... and in most places tax wouldn't apply on it either. You'd hardly expect to pay the same for an item like that across a single city much less the whole country.
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Mar 29, 2019 23:15
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Just lol that you're even trying to defend the American system when there already is a hands-down simpler, better and more transparent system for everyone involved.
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Mar 29, 2019 23:20
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MiddleOne posted:Just lol that you're even trying to defend the American system when there already is a hands-down simpler, better and more transparent system for everyone involved. It's already transparent here, considering the tax rates vary quite a bit. I might as well complain that Europeans can't even sort out having the same currency and tax rates across the continent yet for all the sense that makes.
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Mar 29, 2019 23:32
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