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Hoodwinker posted:I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that people who become landlords transform emotionally so that they begin to feel direct animosity for their tenants, or is it just that the relationship between landlord/tenant is an unhealthy power dynamic and operates as if the power-holder has animosity for the subordinate person? Both, with the former being a consequence of the latter if I had to choose.
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Mar 29, 2019 21:39
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Kobayashi posted:Both, with the former being a consequence of the latter if I had to choose.
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Mar 29, 2019 21:50
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Hoodwinker posted:Are you speaking from experience? Is there data on this? I'm legitimately asking. I'm not a landlord and I don't have an interest in owning rental property. Why would the psychological profile differ from any other kind of provider/purchaser transaction? Wouldn't farmers then also feel animosity for the people who purchase their goods since sustenance is a living need (if that's the reason landlords feel animosity)? What about the relationship generates animosity? Why is the power dynamic inherently unhealthy? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to bombard you with questions, this is just raising a lot of them in my mind and I'm sorting them out in written form. For some real, meaningful insight into the problem you should read "Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City." This book was pretty eye opening about the asymmetries of power that exist between renter and rentier. Basically even well intentioned people end up jaded, bitter and exploitative in the landlord business. it's because tenets can do substantial, irreversible damage to your property above and beyond your ability to protect your investment and keep it working.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:05
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EAT FASTER!!!!!! posted:For some real, meaningful insight into the problem you should read "Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City." This book was pretty eye opening about the asymmetries of power that exist between renter and rentier.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:06
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Hoodwinker posted:Are you speaking from experience? Is there data on this? I'm legitimately asking. I'm not a landlord and I don't have an interest in owning rental property. Why would the psychological profile differ from any other kind of provider/purchaser transaction? Wouldn't farmers then also feel animosity for the people who purchase their goods since sustenance is a living need (if that's the reason landlords feel animosity)? What about the relationship generates animosity? Why is the power dynamic inherently unhealthy? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to bombard you with questions, this is just raising a lot of them in my mind and I'm sorting them out in written form. I don't have sources, sorry. It's based on my understanding of Marx and anecdotal exposure to people who have gone down the landlord route, and people who have been exposed to venture capital. In other words, it's based on watching friends – and me, if I'm being honest – acquire wealth and turn into raging assholes who can only relate to people transactionally.
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Mar 29, 2019 23:43
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Kobayashi posted:I don't have sources, sorry. It's based on my understanding of Marx and anecdotal exposure to people who have gone down the landlord route, and people who have been exposed to venture capital. In other words, it's based on watching friends – and me, if I'm being honest – acquire wealth and turn into raging assholes who can only relate to people transactionally.
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Mar 29, 2019 23:59
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Rarity posted:The fastest way to redistribute wealth is to distribute it direct to the people that need it. Charities are so entrenched within the social system that they cannot effect the radical change that is needed because they are dependent on the upper classes continuing to bestow them funding. "The best way to make sure people get the help they need is to give it to them directly. The system we live in now favors the wealthy." "Whoa buddy what the hell kind of crazy idea is this into the probate pile for you"
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Mar 30, 2019 01:55
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Ramc posted:"The best way to make sure people get the help they need is to give it to them directly. The system we live in now favors the wealthy." Robespierre was right. 
Somebody fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 01:57
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Nuclearmonkee posted:Robespierre was right. Somebody fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 01:58
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Been thinking about adding another property. Anyone have thoughts about geographic diversification vs. economies of scale? I have 12 units managed by the same PM right now, but adding another in the same area or potentially even the same state seems like a diversification risk. I know leaving the state would invite some tax annoyances though. It seems to me that I might get some degree of diversification just by buying in better/worse neighborhoods in the same place, but not sure how to weigh the risk of regional downturns and regional/state tax increases. My economies of scale work on each property having more units, but I don't think I'm actually getting much in concessions for having more units under the same company, so this makes me want to value diversification at least out of the region of the state I'm invested in. Ramc posted:"The best way to make sure people get the help they need is to give it to them directly. The system we live in now favors the wealthy." If only there were some thread not intended for owners and those would like to own property for the discussion to move to. Hey, perhaps you can make one!
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Mar 30, 2019 02:12
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baquerd posted:If only there were some thread not intended for owners and those would like to own property for the discussion to move to. Hey, perhaps you can make one! I will concede that most posters don't want to deny you a platform. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 30, 2019 02:18
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Ramc posted:I will concede that most posters don't want to deny you a platform. Cool, I am definitely interested in continuing the discussion, and it would be great to have place where we both can air our opinions without derailing the main purpose of the thread.
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Mar 30, 2019 02:21
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If you really want to, get one in a different county in the same metro, but at that size I wouldn’t mess with different markets. The extra units might let you go shop your management company a bit more and beat them up on expenses. Having your properties in the same neighborhood might get you better terms out of the lawncare/snow removal people too.
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Mar 30, 2019 02:32
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And by beat up, I mean they would probably be glad to show their bank/landlord that their recurring service revenue increased by $X, even if it comes with a little erosion of percentage margin.
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Mar 30, 2019 02:42
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Someone send me about $300(*) and I'll make the platform. * Will need to double-check lumber prices. I hope a rope is okay, I don't have a forge (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 30, 2019 03:21
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baquerd posted:Been thinking about adding another property. Anyone have thoughts about geographic diversification vs. economies of scale? I have 12 units managed by the same PM right now, but adding another in the same area or potentially even the same state seems like a diversification risk. I know leaving the state would invite some tax annoyances though. Just a general thought you are entering the difficult donut hole where the number of units starts to become a drag on your time and effort but your operation can't easily absorb the expense of professional management. A lot of landlords get in the 20-50ish unit range and find that they've purchased a full time job dealing with tenants and maintenance, and usually when you hear people say things like "I wish I had gotten into bigger leveraged deals sooner" they are talking about this time in their real estate careers
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Mar 30, 2019 03:23
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Speleothing posted:Someone send me about $300(*) and I'll make the platform. 
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Mar 30, 2019 03:33
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Speleothing posted:Someone send me about $300(*) and I'll make the platform. 
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Mar 30, 2019 03:39
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BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:Just a general thought you are entering the difficult donut hole where the number of units starts to become a drag on your time and effort but your operation can't easily absorb the expense of professional management. A lot of landlords get in the 20-50ish unit range and find that they've purchased a full time job dealing with tenants and maintenance, and usually when you hear people say things like "I wish I had gotten into bigger leveraged deals sooner" they are talking about this time in their real estate careers Ah, interesting. Been keeping my eye on some larger places, and it seems around the 30+ units range I'd be able to consider hiring a single full-time employee directly for less, but I haven't actually looked into those sort of salaries and a part-time person who's mostly a receptionist and scheduler of maintenance and could work from home might be pretty cheap if I wanted to take a more active role. I do actually manage to profitably do full-service PM at 10% rents plus placement commissions and fairly small renewal fees. crazypeltast52 posted:If you really want to, get one in a different county in the same metro, but at that size I wouldn’t mess with different markets. The extra units might let you go shop your management company a bit more and beat them up on expenses. Having your properties in the same neighborhood might get you better terms out of the lawncare/snow removal people too. Thanks, will check with PM's and probably do a little legwork inquiring directly to suppliers about whether PM's are getting good deals. Nothing has seemed egregious, but snow removal is always a bitch to pay for.
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Mar 30, 2019 03:43
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Ramc posted:I will concede that most posters don't want to deny you a platform.
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Mar 30, 2019 06:37
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baquerd posted:Ah, interesting. Been keeping my eye on some larger places, and it seems around the 30+ units range I'd be able to consider hiring a single full-time employee directly for less, but I haven't actually looked into those sort of salaries and a part-time person who's mostly a receptionist and scheduler of maintenance and could work from home might be pretty cheap if I wanted to take a more active role. I do actually manage to profitably do full-service PM at 10% rents plus placement commissions and fairly small renewal fees. Do you give any long term investment strategic thought to the idea that society might find a way to stop individuals from "owning" 30+ units they didn't build, with an employee who does the managerial work, and your justification for taking the considerable profits from this arrangement is no longer tenable? I know I try not just to consider market direction and how it might affect my actions, but also how a changing climate might affect them in 10, 20, 50 years out, but also political changes and how they could impact me. I know I personally believe that we as a society will stop this kind of arrangement somehow, since an element of it is required to address climate change in any way (and if society doesn't, we'll all be dead), and try to ensure my actions don't paint a target on my back via antisocial behaviour with investments and building projects. Like why not get to the 30+ units and then actually make the full time job of managing them *your* job? And leverage this extra time to learn ever increasing repair skills so you can save money on hiring others and have the hands on experience of maintaining your properties? And then managing and repairing them in such a way that you are pleased and your tenets are pleased. poopinmymouth fucked around with this message at 11:25 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 11:22
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So owning 30+ units and taking the profit is fine if you do some of the work on the ground level? What?
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Mar 30, 2019 12:26
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you're overlooking the risk that you don't actually know how to maintain multiple properties over the long-term and are being convinced of your capabilities by the lack of short-term failures when are you replacing the roofs? windows? heating systems? wall render? steel frame inspected? renting a home isn't just patching up emergency repairs as necessary, you need a long-term plan and reselling is admitting you're incapable of doing the job
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Mar 30, 2019 13:24
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poopinmymouth posted:Do you give any long term investment strategic thought to the idea that society might find a way to stop individuals from "owning" 30+ units they didn't build, with an employee who does the managerial work, and your justification for taking the considerable profits from this arrangement is no longer tenable? Yes, the long term strategy is just general investment diversification and not overweighting real estate in any particular way, I personally think it should be less than 20% of one's portfolio. If real estate becomes a less compelling investment for political reasons the diversification should allow for a buffer if the properties need to be sold at a loss.
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Mar 30, 2019 14:12
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Speleothing posted:Someone send me about $300(*) and I'll make the platform. I think with a piece of decently thick sheet steel, an angle grinder, and some patience, a forge is unnecessary for this application. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 30, 2019 14:20
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 The Grenfell Action Group posted:It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster. Reminder that noone has been convicted for this
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Mar 30, 2019 14:31
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Testicular Torque Wrench posted:
The government bought a $16m apartment in new york for one of our diplomats while the homes of the poor burn lol
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Mar 30, 2019 14:37
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Azza Bamboo posted:So owning 30+ units and taking the profit is fine if you do some of the work on the ground level? Well no, it was more a thought experiment, and challenge. I personally think that if the landlord is doing the management themselves with face to face time with their tenets, as well as building up their maintenance skills and does that themselves, that a sustainable end result will be pursued more often than currently out of the various inputs. More than likely the person would reach a sustainable income/labor level around 3-5 units to pay for their life's necessities, and the service they provide as a knowledgeable tradesman and social skills from working with their renters will end up in a much more balanced ratio than a person remote managing 30+ units with paid employees doing the work while they live off the largess. I think the latter both attracts and encourages sociopathy, and the former would attract and encourage philanthropy. Maybe naive, but I think it's possible to be a socialist and have the day job be based around housing maintenance, for people who don't want or can't do that labor themselves. Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:you're overlooking the risk that you don't actually know how to maintain multiple properties over the long-term and are being convinced of your capabilities by the lack of short-term failures Well, myself, the answer is yes, I'm replacing all of those things, windows, heating, insulation, siding, plumbing, tiles, cabinetry, etc. I started slow and built up my skills. It's tangential but I also don't think people should jump into things over their head business wise, start small and build as skills and experience grow. Even if you can't do these things yourself, if you're taking over the management of an asset that contains these things, one should be at least familiar for maintenance purposes. I think ultimately we should be moving toward a collective ownership of housing doling it out based on personal need, but while we're still working under private property, there are ways to move the needle toward better or worse outcomes. For example I think rent control is too little for a sustainable society, but I will still support moves to implement rent control in the interim as I think it's better than leaving rental rates up to the whims of landlord. We set our current rents after finishing making the space livable based on the time and resources it took, as well as what market rates and average incomes of our target demographic were, and haven't raised rent yet in 5 years on any property of ours, but if between tenets we had to do a lot of renovations or something changed in the calculation, it might require a higher rent on the next. Testicular Torque Wrench posted:
I visited London a year ago and was trying to find an indoor playplace, and as I'm not a local, the site of the burned out Grenfell tower really shocked me as we emerged from the nearby station. It was incredibly sobering, and following both the reasons such shoddy materials were used, maintenance delayed, and non justice after the fact is infuriating.
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Mar 30, 2019 14:40
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poopinmymouth posted:I visited London a year ago and was trying to find an indoor playplace, and as I'm not a local, the site of the burned out Grenfell tower really shocked me as we emerged from the nearby station. It was incredibly sobering, and following both the reasons such shoddy materials were used, maintenance delayed, and non justice after the fact is infuriating. Hmm yes, certainly makes you think. 
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Mar 30, 2019 15:19
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baquerd posted:Yes, the long term strategy is just general investment diversification and not overweighting real estate in any particular way, I personally think it should be less than 20% of one's portfolio. If real estate becomes a less compelling investment for political reasons the diversification should allow for a buffer if the properties need to be sold at a loss. We live in a society where one rear end in a top hat flexing their investment portfolio to internet strangers is permitted dominion over the residents of 30+ units. A freer, more democratic society wouldn’t allow itself to be ruled by such psychotic monsters.
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Mar 30, 2019 16:17
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Kobayashi posted:We live in a society where one rear end in a top hat flexing their investment portfolio to internet strangers is permitted dominion over the residents of 30+ units. A freer, more democratic society wouldn’t allow itself to be ruled by such psychotic monsters. I mean, if you feel that landlords are your rulers, maybe educate yourself more about tenants rights and/or advocate for more of them in your area. A tenant is a equal participant in a business relationship.
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Mar 30, 2019 16:22
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over a year what are you doing for your tenants, as opposed to handing off to a property dev company due to your ineptitude?
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Mar 30, 2019 16:26
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Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:over a year what are you doing for your tenants, as opposed to handing off to a property dev company due to your ineptitude? That would be bearing almost all of the financial and liability risk. The heater blows, it's on me, and if I don't fix a heater within 24 hours, it's $500 fines a day per unit. Someone slips and falls because I didn't clear the sidewalks, it's on me. A tenant leaves garbage lying around and rats get in and tear up electrical in their unit and others, it's on me.
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Mar 30, 2019 16:31
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baquerd posted:I mean, if you feel that landlords are your rulers, maybe educate yourself more about tenants rights and/or advocate for more of them in your area. A tenant is a equal participant in a business relationship. lol if you believe this this guy had the correct approach to tenant's rights (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 30, 2019 16:33
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that's the property, so you're doing nothing for the tenant at all? how many times do you talk to a tenant across their entire tenancy? what is your involvement beyond looking at the money coming in?
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Mar 30, 2019 16:33
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Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:that's the property, so you're doing nothing for the tenant at all? how many times do you talk to a tenant across their entire tenancy? what is your involvement beyond looking at the money coming in? They are paying me for a clean and safe place to inhabit with a myriad of rights, which I provide. I rarely talk to tenants one on one, but review property management records every couple weeks or so and make key decisions outside of day-to-day maintenance.
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Mar 30, 2019 16:38
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well regale us on your key decisions and how you're a vital part of the equation property management is incapable of?
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Mar 30, 2019 16:40
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Wiggly Wayne DDS posted:well regale us on your key decisions and how you're a vital part of the equation property management is incapable of? They're not necessarily incapable of making the decisions (and in fact they try to make more decisions than I'd like if I don't ride their rear end on it), I'm just ultimately responsible for them as landlord. That's what it means to be an owner of business or property.
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Mar 30, 2019 16:42
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Hoodwinker posted:Are you speaking from experience? Is there data on this? I'm legitimately asking. I'm not a landlord and I don't have an interest in owning rental property. Why would the psychological profile differ from any other kind of provider/purchaser transaction? Wouldn't farmers then also feel animosity for the people who purchase their goods since sustenance is a living need (if that's the reason landlords feel animosity)? What about the relationship generates animosity? Why is the power dynamic inherently unhealthy? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to bombard you with questions, this is just raising a lot of them in my mind and I'm sorting them out in written form. This is what I meant by being unable to relate to people outside of transactional terms. This is what the accumulation of wealth does to people’s brains: baquerd posted:I mean, if you feel that landlords are your rulers, maybe educate yourself more about tenants rights and/or advocate for more of them in your area. A tenant is a equal participant in a business relationship. baquerd posted:They are paying me for a clean and safe place to inhabit with a myriad of rights, which I provide. I rarely talk to tenants one on one, but review property management records every couple weeks or so and make key decisions outside of day-to-day maintenance. baquerd posted:They're not necessarily incapable of making the decisions (and in fact they try to make more decisions than I'd like if I don't ride their rear end on it), I'm just ultimately responsible for them as landlord. That's what it means to be an owner of business or property.
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Mar 30, 2019 16:51
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Kobayashi posted:This is what I meant by being unable to relate to people outside of transactional terms. This is what the accumulation of wealth does to people’s brains: Bit off track here. Plenty of relationships aren't business relationships, but landlord-tenant is definitely one of them.
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Mar 30, 2019 16:55
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