The Former Best Friends Thread: Woolie, Matt, Pat and Liam's Solo Stuff

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Rapidly Going Deaf > The Former Best Friends Thread: Woolie, Matt, Pat and Liam's Solo Stuff

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Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

The original article says that the game doesn't respect its players' capability to actually make decisions re: difficulty. The title is more absolute but it's Modern Journalism.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 02:02

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# ? May 28, 2024 01:48

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Dias posted:

The original article says that the game doesn't respect its players' capability to actually make decisions re: difficulty. The title is more absolute but it's Modern Journalism.

I dont think that changes the issue really. Ita still a condemnation, not a critique

# ? Mar 30, 2019 02:04

Mystic Mongol: Jan 5, 2007; Your life's been thrown in disarray already--I wouldn't want you to feel pressured.; College Slice

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Like, I understand it was during a heated moment, but a person in here literally said "Miyazaki can go gently caress himself" because he didnt consider a terminal cancer patient in his design.

For the record, I'm standing by that one. The triumph of interactive media is responsiveness to the viewer.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 02:09

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Mystic Mongol posted:

For the record, I'm standing by that one. The triumph of interactive media is responsiveness to the viewer.

Well yeah, but the problem is that games are still in its infancy and the challenge of the game as media and as "game" is unique and still complex. Like, at some point the fundamental functioning of a game limits the ability for it be universally accessible. It's not to say the attempt cannot be made, but I think we also must acknowledge full accessibility is genuinely impossible in the "game" element of the medium

Like, is it a moral failure all games dont consider people with locked-in syndrome when being designed?

# ? Mar 30, 2019 02:14

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I dont think that changes the issue really. Ita still a condemnation, not a critique

It's more of a reaction to another kind of moral condemnation, the argument that Souls games would be ruined for people because they would always take the easy way out outta weakness. That does feel disrespectful and it definitely has a different tone than "THIS GAME DISRESPECTS ME FOR NOT HAVING AN EASY MODE".

I mean, it's not a good article, but we might as well talk about what the author wrote.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 02:25

Roth: Jul 9, 2016

Souls games are actually just an inside job to sell more controllers when gamers keep breaking them in anger and have no value outside of that.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 02:52

Mystic Mongol: Jan 5, 2007; Your life's been thrown in disarray already--I wouldn't want you to feel pressured.; College Slice

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Well yeah, but the problem is that games are still in its infancy and the challenge of the game as media and as "game" is unique and still complex. Like, at some point the fundamental functioning of a game limits the ability for it be universally accessible. It's not to say the attempt cannot be made, but I think we also must acknowledge full accessibility is genuinely impossible in the "game" element of the medium

Like, is it a moral failure all games dont consider people with locked-in syndrome when being designed?

While universal accessibility is impossible, I firmly believe that there is a moral imperative to make your game as accessible as practical. I came up with a particularly dramatic example, but the world is full of people too young or ill or just kinda crap to approach many games, and that's a shame.

As for ole' Miyazaki, there's definitely some nuance to the problem he's grappling with. I can't go into the detail that HBomberguy went into, and I really recommend that video, if you have an hour and a half. In short: Dark Souls 1 had really, really good shields, that you could start the game with, which encouraged a lot of players to play through the game in a slow, defensive, less exciting way. Dark Souls 2 put the good shields further back in the game, so you got used to fighting without them. And Bloodborne didn't even give you the option to lame your way through combat. By reducing and eventually removing the "easy" gameplay of hiding behind your shield 90% of the time, players are encouraged to play in a more thrilling way, and thus have more fun. But as defensive options are removed, the games become harder, and in bloodborne a bad boss fight might have you use up all your heals, and the punishment for defeat gets raised from, "run to the boss and try again," to, "go to a different zone and grind out twenty more bloods, then warp back and try again once you've forgotten the boss's moves."

That's a real interesting question, balancing those different needs against each other. But his answer is just bad. He doesn't say, "We've included a lot of options for letting players to engage the game, and I'd encourage people having trouble to try out sorcery and heavy armor." He doesn't say, "We're thinking about including accessibility options, but we haven't quite lined it up with our game's distinctive multiplayer." He tells people who want an easier experience to pound sand, he's making art here. And yeah, get stuffed buddy. Kill the author, every time.

There are so many ways to reach out to your players!

There's not a wrong way to do it. Just... don't turn your back on people who you could be helping.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:09

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Mystic Mongol posted:

That's a real interesting question, balancing those different needs against each other. But his answer is just bad. He doesn't say, "We've included a lot of options for letting players to engage the game, and I'd encourage people having trouble to try out sorcery and heavy armor." He doesn't say, "We're thinking about including accessibility options, but we haven't quite lined it up with our game's distinctive multiplayer." He tells people who want an easier experience to pound sand, he's making art here. And yeah, get stuffed buddy. Kill the author, every time.

I'm not familiar with Miyazaki ever saying anything close to that.

Also, I dont think that's a fair use of death of the author. The death of the author is about a medium's significance being determined by the reader of the medium. It has nothing to do with a creator not being allowed to have a creative vision. The reader is allowed to have a vision of the work not shared by the creator, but it doesnt.mean the creation itself must be adjusted to the readers preference.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:18

Viridiant: Nov 7, 2009; Big PP Energy

The idea that difficulty levels disrupt or distort the "intended" experience of the game as art is kinda flimsy imo.

First, you are almost never getting the original piece of art as intended by the artist when it's coming to you through the filter of a company anyway. The picture you're getting has already been smudged and distorted by any number of things that were added to it by people other than the primary artists, some of these perhaps distorting it far more than an easier difficulty level would.

This is further obscured when you're talking about something like a game that has multiple artists attached to it. Who is to be considered the primary visionary? How much of their vision did they concede to that of the other artists on the team? What were these other artists thinking when they included their piece of the whole into the game? I find it hard to believe that everyone on the team was entirely happy with where the difficulty ended up, much less all the other pieces of the game.

And it gets more complicated still when you bring in the audience. People aren't going to experience these games the same way even without difficulty levels. Different aspects of these games are going to be more or less important to different people at different times of their lives. Even in just this thread alone you had someone not even realizing that people cared about the stories in the Souls series. I can beat the first Dark Souls with some pretty restrictive builds but I primarily play for the atmosphere and the set pieces and my experience feels no greater or lesser no matter how overpowered or underpowered the build I'm using at the time is.

Harping on what the intended vision for an artistic work is is restricting yourself to only a portion of what art has to offer, and that intended vision becomes less important and more blurry as you get further away in time from the original artist. Hell, a lot of artists aren't even happy with their final work. What's to be said of the intended vision then?

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:29

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Viridiant posted:

The idea that difficulty levels disrupt or distort the "intended" experience of the game as art is kinda flimsy imo.

I agree. The players gets to determine the way that they intend to experience the medium.

However, that is different from arguing the designer is not allowed to have an intent in his design. The author creates his own interpretation. It is not more valid than the readers, but the reader cannot make demands of the author any more than the author can make demands of the reader.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:31

Roth: Jul 9, 2016

Viridiant posted:

The idea that difficulty levels disrupt or distort the "intended" experience of the game as art is kinda flimsy imo.

First, you are almost never getting the original piece of art as intended by the artist when it's coming to you through the filter of a company anyway. The picture you're getting has already been smudged and distorted by any number of things that were added to it by people other than the primary artists, some of these perhaps distorting it far more than an easier difficulty level would.

This is further obscured when you're talking about something like a game that has multiple artists attached to it. Who is to be considered the primary visionary? How much of their vision did they concede to that of the other artists on the team? What were these other artists thinking when they included their piece of the whole into the game? I find it hard to believe that everyone on the team was entirely happy with where the difficulty ended up, much less all the other pieces of the game.

And it gets more complicated still when you bring in the audience. People aren't going to experience these games the same way even without difficulty levels. Different aspects of these games are going to be more or less important to different people at different times of their lives. Even in just this thread alone you had someone not even realizing that people cared about the stories in the Souls series. I can beat the first Dark Souls with some pretty restrictive builds but I primarily play for the atmosphere and the set pieces and my experience feels no greater or lesser no matter how overpowered or underpowered the build I'm using at the time is.

Harping on what the intended vision for an artistic work is is restricting yourself to only a portion of what art has to offer, and that intended vision becomes less important and more blurry as you get further away in time from the original artist. Hell, a lot of artists aren't even happy with their final work. What's to be said of the intended vision then?

I always found it weird in this argument that people arguing against it assume that everybody is of an equal skill level, and that an easy mode would not be a similarly challenging experience for somebody playing that is a more experienced player than somebody playing the regular difficulty.

Or that From Software wouldn't create an even harder mode anyway.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:42

Viridiant: Nov 7, 2009; Big PP Energy

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I agree. The players gets to determine the way that they intend to experience the medium.

However, that is different from arguing the designer is not allowed to have an intent in his design. The author creates his own interpretation. It is not more valid than the readers, but the reader cannot make demands of the author any more than the author can make demands of the reader.

Oh, I agree with that.

I'm more pushing back against this idea of intended experience presented by others in the thread.

And honestly I'm not even sure Mystic Mongol is actually saying that but they can speak for themselves.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:49

Mystic Mongol: Jan 5, 2007; Your life's been thrown in disarray already--I wouldn't want you to feel pressured.; College Slice

Oh, designers are allowed to be total shits with their design. It's a free country.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:51

Viridiant: Nov 7, 2009; Big PP Energy

Roth posted:

I always found it weird in this argument that people arguing against it assume that everybody is of an equal skill level, and that an easy mode would not be a similarly challenging experience for somebody playing that is a more experienced player than somebody playing the regular difficulty.

Or that From Software wouldn't create an even harder mode anyway.

It's notable that there isn't nearly this much pushback when people suggest that a game should be harder, either.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:51

Neo_Crimson: Aug 15, 2011; "Is that your final dandy?"

Viridiant posted:

It's notable that there isn't nearly this much pushback when people suggest that a game should be harder, either.

No, there's definitely pushback when a game is perceived as too easy. KH3 is a recent example.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:54

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I think one of the reasons why fans act like baby idiot assholes when people say they want an easy mode is because the souls games are a singular experience. Like, speaking as a big weirdo superfan of the games, there is a unique joy that comes from trying to overcome an unwavering challenge.

Like, it feels literally unique in its form of challenge in a way every other game isnt. Part of the issue is that, for some, it feels like demanding a game that feels singular should feel.like every other game to be "accessible"

I dont share this view, but I do think it's why elements of the response is so visceral from fanboys

# ? Mar 30, 2019 03:56

Viridiant: Nov 7, 2009; Big PP Energy

I got a lot of the same satisfaction from Hollow Knight that I got from beating Souls games, though I also think that it's closer to the original Dark Souls in difficulty level with less of the stuff that started cropping up a lot more in later Souls games that I like less, like enemies hitting EXTREMELY hard.

When I first started playing the Souls series I'd refuse to summon help until I'd beaten each boss at least one time. This lasted all the way through Dark Souls III. I'm not sure what changed. I either got tired of the brand of difficulty the later games offered, or I got older, but I just don't have the patience to bash my head against walls like that anymore. I was able to with Hollow Knight because its difficulty felt more "fair".

# ? Mar 30, 2019 04:06

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I think one of the reasons why fans act like baby idiot assholes when people say they want an easy mode is because the souls games are a singular experience. Like, speaking as a big weirdo superfan of the games, there is a unique joy that comes from trying to overcome an unwavering challenge.

Like, it feels literally unique in its form of challenge in a way every other game isnt. Part of the issue is that, for some, it feels like demanding a game that feels singular should feel.like every other game to be "accessible"

I dont share this view, but I do think it's why elements of the response is so visceral from fanboys

I kinda posted about this earlier today, I think a lot of Souls Fans' experiences with the series are defined by dread followed by frustration and finally relief, rinse and repeat. I like your definition of "wall-based" progression - you move forward until you hit a wall, then you have to find a way to climb over it. If that's what you wanna get out of playing those games, I can see any concessions feeling like a corruption of the Souls Experience.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 04:21

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Dias posted:

I kinda posted about this earlier today, I think a lot of Souls Fans' experiences with the series are defined by dread followed by frustration and finally relief, rinse and repeat. I like your definition of "wall-based" progression - you move forward until you hit a wall, then you have to find a way to climb over it. If that's what you wanna get out of playing those games, I can see any concessions feeling like a corruption of the Souls Experience.

Yeah, people are assholes about it but I do think part of the reason is because that joy it creates is so rare and intimate

# ? Mar 30, 2019 04:25

scary ghost dog: Aug 5, 2007

the truth is that souls players dont want to find out that weve been playing easy mode the whole time

# ? Mar 30, 2019 05:47

Vandar: Sep 14, 2007; Isn't That Right, Chairman?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqrj5Ggutv4

"Simpsons Reference" is a wonderful name here. :allears:

The opening animation is really fun too.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 06:07

somepartsareme: Mar 10, 2012; Diggle Hell is a Real
(Swingin') Place

the most controversial thing a former best friend has done today: laughing at the simpsons game

# ? Mar 30, 2019 06:24

PaletteSwappedNinja: Jun 3, 2008; One Nation, Under God.

Wow Pat's a dumbass, who knew

# ? Mar 30, 2019 06:25

RareAcumen: Dec 28, 2012

This conversation's pointless unless any of you truly hate the handicapped and are intending to go out and slaughter them to preserve the integrity of Dark Souls' hallowed 'Intended Difficulty.' And not just the men but the women and children too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfevBIsVG1o

If it's not worth starting a crusade for, then can it really be said that it's important in the slightest?

# ? Mar 30, 2019 06:36

Barent: Jun 15, 2007; Never die in vain.

Lol paige unblocked me just so she could agree with pat at me

# ? Mar 30, 2019 07:23

Phantasium: Dec 27, 2012

https://twitter.com/WoolieWoolz/status/1112028718019436545

https://twitter.com/WoolieWoolz/status/1112038564580098049

# ? Mar 30, 2019 18:53

Captain Invictus: Apr 5, 2005; Try reading some manga!; Clever Betty

That is THE BEST

Devs who throw in stupid actually decent jokes like that are great

# ? Mar 30, 2019 18:58

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I am actually thrilled by the fact that is the first time I saw Matt and woolie respond to each other since the break up

# ? Mar 30, 2019 19:05

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

Phantasium posted:

https://twitter.com/WoolieWoolz/status/1112028718019436545

https://twitter.com/WoolieWoolz/status/1112038564580098049

# ? Mar 30, 2019 19:14

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Things SBF is responsible for

1. Warframe
2. Metal Wolf Chaos in the US
3. Ironic Telltale dialog
4. Unsubscribing to Superbunnyhop

# ? Mar 30, 2019 19:17

Grouchio: Aug 31, 2014

5. SuperEyepatchWolf

# ? Mar 30, 2019 19:18

Phantasium: Dec 27, 2012

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I am actually thrilled by the fact that is the first time I saw Matt and woolie respond to each other since the break up

They've got photos of them meeting fans together at PAX.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 19:20

Phantasium: Dec 27, 2012

Not even a minute into the latest DMCV video and Pat is already wrong about something.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 20:06

Shindragon: Jun 6, 2011; by Athanatos

Oh wow I was wondering why grapple away was in the game while I was testing Batman near the end of my time there.

I'm actually p happy that was cuz of SBF.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 20:08

Captain Baal: Oct 23, 2010; I Failed At Anime 2022

Phantasium posted:

Not even a minute into the latest DMCV video and Pat is already wrong about something.

I did a double take at this since that's exactly how I beat the secret mission

# ? Mar 30, 2019 20:28

Nalesh: Jun 9, 2010; What did the grandma say to the frog?

Something racist, probably.

PaletteSwappedNinja posted:

Wow Pat's a dumbass, who knew

I still love people being surprised by this, like we haven't known this for like, a decade :v:

# ? Mar 30, 2019 20:33

RareAcumen: Dec 28, 2012

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Things SBF is responsible for

1. Warframe
2. Metal Wolf Chaos in the US
3. Ironic Telltale dialog
4. Unsubscribing to Superbunnyhop

6.TierZoo

Nalesh posted:

I still love people being surprised by this, like we haven't known this for like, a decade

Being stupid and throwing tantrums about an option for an easier difficulty in a video game to make it more accessible to people with disabilities don't sound right to me.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 20:40

somepartsareme: Mar 10, 2012; Diggle Hell is a Real
(Swingin') Place

im not even gonna poo poo on him for saying there shouldnt be an easy mode, but talking about entitled non-gamers who just want things handed to them and accusing people of "using disabled people as a cudgel" is leaning into :chloe:

territory. but i'm sure his followers will console him about the mean sjws yelling at him and that definitely won't become a toxic feedback loop

somepartsareme fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Mar 30, 2019

# ? Mar 30, 2019 21:15

Viridiant: Nov 7, 2009; Big PP Energy

I've been worried about Pat becoming more of a lovely gamer since the breakup without both Wooly and Matt there to kinda keep him under control but I was hoping Wooly at least would be enough to keep that from getting too bad. Pat's exactly the type of ranting white dude that was really popular back in the late 90s/early 2000s from which you can draw pretty much a direct line to lovely dude/gamer attitudes today.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 21:26

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# ? May 28, 2024 01:48

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I mean, tbh, I do think there are a lot of people who evoke "what about disability" as a shield against the fact they think the game is too hard.

An easy mode is a very limited solution to an very limited series of disabilities and I do think some people use it to shield their own preference under a veil of egalitarianism.

The issue of accessibility for disability is much larger than one solved by an "easy mode" and it seems a bit insincere to use the disabled as your justification.

# ? Mar 30, 2019 21:52

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Rapidly Going Deaf > The Former Best Friends Thread: Woolie, Matt, Pat and Liam's Solo Stuff

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