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Maduro's a shithead, but I'm not hot on the opposition either. US-backed coups in Central and South America to install business-friendly right-wing regimes is just not my jam.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:11
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Zeroisanumber posted:Maduro's a shithead, but I'm not hot on the opposition either. US-backed coups in Central and South America to install business-friendly right-wing regimes is just not my jam. How is this meant to be relevant to Venezuela? Are you alleging that the US faked the elections several years back or something?
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Mar 31, 2019 22:13
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fishmech posted:How is this meant to be relevant to Venezuela? Are you alleging that the US faked the elections several years back or something? I think that we've wanted a regime change since I was back in college and that big capital wants to get its mitts on Venezuela's oil again. The aid convoys are an obvious Trojan Horse and if you think that Guaido isn't going to end up owing his soul to the CIA when all is said and done then you're painfully naive. 
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Mar 31, 2019 22:21
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Worth a reminder that no troops went to Colombia as a result of Bolton's scribblings.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:22
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THS posted:It's very heartening to see that unlike Allende, the government in Venezuela decided to arm regular people - it makes the stakes much higher for the right wing to try to install right wing liberalism. cheering the shooting of protesters is kinda gross
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Mar 31, 2019 22:28
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Mozi posted:Worth a reminder that no troops went to Colombia as a result of Bolton's scribblings. The thing about plans is that they don't always take place right away. I'd love to see Maduro thrown out on his rear end, but any outside force that comes in to knock him over is just going to turn Venezuela into a vassal state. Particularly the US which has a history of doing just that very thing.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:28
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Zeroisanumber posted:The thing about plans is that they don't always take place right away. What if he's - knocked out by a bloodless / mostly bloodless internal Venezuelan revolt? - persuaded by a non-US coalition and the US-including international pressure he's under to hold fair elections? I've been convinced that the former is preferable insofar as it maybe makes for a stronger successor government that's less beholden to the US / outside forces, but i still maintain that the latter is preferable to Maduro staying
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Mar 31, 2019 22:34
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Zeroisanumber posted:I think that we've wanted a regime change since I was back in college and that big capital wants to get its mitts on Venezuela's oil again. The aid convoys are an obvious Trojan Horse and if you think that Guaido isn't going to end up owing his soul to the CIA when all is said and done then you're painfully naive. So ok, you don't actually know anything about Venezuela. Well it's nice that you admitted it. Refreshing to see someone just say "the opposition was fairly elected by the people but it doesn't matter because uhhh CIA!! Be scared because i said CIA!!!" Kinda funny that you think "big capital" didn't already have its "mitts" on the oil considering how much the Maduro regime has sold off VZ oil fields and processing to outside capitalists.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:36
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Zeroisanumber posted:The thing about plans is that they don't always take place right away. Venezuela is -already- a vassal state of Russia and China.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:43
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GreyjoyBastard posted:What if he's Either of these would be a better option but I don't think that that's the direction that events are headed. Maduro's a dumptruck driving moron, but a lot of people have a lot of money tied up in his government. fishmech posted:So ok, you don't actually know anything about Venezuela. Well it's nice that you admitted it. Refreshing to see someone just say "the opposition was fairly elected by the people but it doesn't matter because uhhh CIA!! Be scared because i said CIA!!!" Well, about half of my family is native Venezuelan so I feel like I've talked to people who are interested in what's going on and informed about events, especially since half of their close relatives are still in Venezuela.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:46
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Zeroisanumber posted:Either of these would be a better option but I don't think that that's the direction that events are headed. Maduro's a dumptruck driving moron, but a lot of people have a lot of money tied up in his government. Most of this thread is against US direct intervention and thinks that at least the recent sanctions are boneheaded and horrible. Personally I suspect the Trump administration doesn't have / won't get its poo poo together enough to commit to direct intervention (which is good!), which means the current sanctions holding pattern is likely to continue (which is bad!) until something else gives. Other than grassroots protests in Venezuela, the International Contact Group is maybe the thing for optimists to watch: https://www.fundacioncarolina.es/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/AC1-en.pdf (a look at what they're up to from some venezuelablog nerds) https://venezuelablog.org/venezuela-weekly-international-contact-group-meets-quito/ (the weekly venezuelablog update post that headlines the ICG) tldr they're european and some south american countries seeking a negotiated solution if possible and to streamline aid if not and probably only exist because the USA is being openly thuggish and led by Donald J Trump, but hey, a US-independent group taking the lead would probably be a good thing even under President Bernie Sanders
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Mar 31, 2019 23:05
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fishmech posted:How is this meant to be relevant to Venezuela? Are you alleging that the US faked the elections several years back or something? Yes, their position is that anyone who ever has opposed Chavez or Maduro is a "U.S. puppet" and the democratic election which brought the Guaidó-led National Assembly to legitimate power never happened.
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Mar 31, 2019 23:14
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Here's unusually clear footage of a colectivo armado doing its thing. This looks to be the same colectivo that was in action repressing a protest in the Fuerzas Armadas avenue: https://twitter.com/ReporteYa/status/1112476163899883520
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Mar 31, 2019 23:17
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THS posted:It's very heartening to see that unlike Allende, the government in Venezuela decided to arm regular people - it makes the stakes much higher for the right wing to try to install right wing liberalism. Colectivos shooting unarmed protesters is combating right wing liberalism? I think that's just cold blooded murder.
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Mar 31, 2019 23:21
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Pharohman777 posted:Colectivos shooting unarmed protesters is combating right wing liberalism? no they are false flag cia paid protestors and they deserved it or footage is staged
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Mar 31, 2019 23:22
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Pharohman777 posted:Colectivos shooting unarmed protesters is combating right wing liberalism? tomato tomato
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Mar 31, 2019 23:23
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Most of this thread is against US direct intervention and thinks that at least the recent sanctions are boneheaded and horrible. One thing working in our favor is that the Trump administration is pretty scatterbrained and has trouble concentrating on completing any particular policy goal. Especially as we start going into the long, long, presidential election season I like to think that there's less of a chance of him kicking off a war. M. Discordia posted:Yes, their position is that anyone who ever has opposed Chavez or Maduro is a "U.S. puppet" and the democratic election which brought the Guaidó-led National Assembly to legitimate power never happened. Keep loving that chicken.
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Mar 31, 2019 23:37
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Zeroisanumber posted:Well, about half of my family is native Venezuelan so I feel like I've talked to people who are interested in what's going on and informed about events, especially since half of their close relatives are still in Venezuela. Your family told you the CIA faked the vote in the 2015 parliamentary election? That's what you'd have to be saying, for your assertion to be true. Otherwise you'd just be lying about Venezuela again.
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Mar 31, 2019 23:41
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Zeroisanumber posted:One thing working in our favor is that the Trump administration is pretty scatterbrained and has trouble concentrating on completing any particular policy goal. Especially as we start going into the long, long, presidential election season I like to think that there's less of a chance of him kicking off a war. Are you accusing discordia of being into bestiality of something? Or is this some new euphemism?
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Mar 31, 2019 23:43
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Pharohman777 posted:Are you accusing discordia of being into bestiality of something? Or is this some new euphemism? it is a daily show reference from the dawn of recorded history when jon stewart ran it
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Mar 31, 2019 23:48
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Chuck Boone posted:Here's unusually clear footage of a colectivo armado doing its thing. This looks to be the same colectivo that was in action repressing a protest in the Fuerzas Armadas avenue: Is there anything that verifies that these are members of a colectivo/associated with the Venezuelan govt and that they are indeed interfering with a Pro-Guaido/Anti-Maduro protest?
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Apr 1, 2019 02:01
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thatfatkid posted:Is there anything that verifies that these are members of a colectivo/associated with the Venezuelan govt and that they are indeed interfering with a Pro-Guaido/Anti-Maduro protest? Yes. The fact that they were shooting at anti-government demonstrators (injuring at least two) who were out protesting at the site over the ongoing disruptions to water and electrical service. The colectivo armado phenomenon is well understood and has been extensively documented by organizations like Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights. The existence and activities of coletivos armados has been observed and documented by these organizations and others since the 2014 anti-government protests. Chavez laid the foundation for these organizations with something called the "Bolvarian Circles", which no longer exist (partially because some of them morphed into colectivos armados). What we see in the images and videos today from the Fuerzas Armadas avenue fits the behaviour, appearance and modus operandi of a coletivo armado to a T. EDIT: Protests still going on tonight in Caracas. Here's footage from El Valle: https://twitter.com/RCamachoVzla/status/1112530744692404224 EDIT 2: The video shows an injured woman being taken away, presumably to a hospital. The woman is allegedly one of the two people injured in the coletivo attack in Caracas this afternoon: https://twitter.com/TITORODRIGUEZZ/status/1112449294995521538 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 02:53 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 02:47
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You misspelled No. Again, is there anything that verifies that that video is in fact of members of the infamous colectivos and that that video shows them shooting at protesters?
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Apr 1, 2019 02:52
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The government has ordered all schools closed for tomorrow. Also, all offices must close at 2:00 PM until further notice. I believe that schools were closed all of last week. Maduro was just on TV a little while ago and he announced what sounds like a regimen of electrical rationing that is supposed to last 30 days. Maduro says that he thinks that schools will be able to open again on "Tuesday or Wednesday", and that yesterday's blackout was also caused by an "electromagnetic" attack. I'm not sure if he talked about today's outage, or if he's lumping it together with yesterday's. He said: quote:I'm approving a 30-day plan to take us to a regimen of electrical charge, of equilibrium between the generating process, the secure transmission processes and the service and consumption processes around the country, with an emphasis on guaranteeing the water service. thatfatkid posted:You misspelled No. Again, is there anything that verifies that that video is in fact of members of the infamous colectivos and that that video shows them shooting at protesters? I'm sorry, but all we have is several news outlets reporting the attack based on eyewitness testimonies as well as footage and images of the attack taking place from multiple angles.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:03
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Chuck Boone posted:I'm sorry, but all we have is several news outlets reporting the attack based on eyewitness testimonies as well as footage and images of the attack taking place from multiple angles. Except there is nothing to verify that said video is of members of a colectivo, that they were shooting at the protest etc. Just because you claim something repeatedly does not make it so. I'm not disputing that "protestors" are claiming to be injured, i am simply asking for proof of a claim made re: how the injuries occurred. thatfatkid fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 03:11
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Well, there is also the fact that over a decade ago there was a ban on civilians owning guns, with exceptions made for the Colectivos. And given what Maduro has said on television to the Colectivos regarding stamping out protests, plus past brutality by them, it is just another in a long string of brutality towards protestors that the Venezuelan government has ordered.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:15
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this is kind of a crude question but is guiado mestizo or white?
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Apr 1, 2019 03:21
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I'm curious, why is it that the supposed past actions of Maduro's supporters can be used as irrefutable proof to back-up unverified claims about them/their actions - while the same reasoning cannot be used to assess the US and Elliott Abrams intent/actions re: their involvement in the attempted coup by Guaido?
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Apr 1, 2019 03:34
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thatfatkid posted:I'm curious, why is it that the supposed past actions of Maduro's supporters can be used as irrefutable proof to back-up unverified claims about them/their actions - while the same reasoning cannot be used to assess the US and Elliott Abrams intent/actions re: their involvement in the attempted coup by Guaido? Well for one, we're talking about the opposition and what has been done to it by Maduro and his supporters over the past 6-ish years. There's a mountain of news articles and eyewitnesses accounts and videos documenting this stuff, and Chuck Boone has been posting that stuff in this thread for years. Its not unverifiable.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:50
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And there's nothing documenting the US/Elliott Abrams past actions in Latin American countries?  Agreed that the claim of the video posted showing the supposed actions of colectivos members is not unverifiable, it just hasn't been verified as of yet.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:53
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thatfatkid posted:I'm curious, why is it that the supposed past actions of Maduro's supporters can be used as irrefutable proof to back-up unverified claims about them/their actions - while the same reasoning cannot be used to assess the US and Elliott Abrams intent/actions re: their involvement in the attempted coup by Guaido? are you really doing this thatfatkid posted:And there's nothing documenting the US/Elliott Abrams past actions in Latin American countries? are you seriously doing this
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Apr 1, 2019 03:59
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thatfatkid posted:Except there is nothing to verify that said video is of members of a colectivo, that they were shooting at the protest etc. This is kind of a weird thing to expect. When trying to follow current events its very difficult to achieve indisputable proof of what is occurring in a single piece of evidence like one video posted on twitter. In order to make sense of events rather than concerning yourself with verification of every single specific claim of the specific number of injuries, or the trustworthyness of a single person posting on twitter, you need to step back a little and make more general sense. Is there consistency and agreement on something from many sources? Can we confirm that there were events occurring in which we would expect casualties? If we cannot confirm exactly who someone is firing a gun in one video, can we fit them into a larger picture based on public statements and past evidence and other contextual clues as to who they are? If we look at all of the videos posted by Chuck Boone showing unrest from today, we can form a coherent picture. A women shouts curses and insults at a group firing guns in the street she identifies as members of colectivos. More men are filmed firing guns on the street while clanking pots and pans, a traditional form of anti-government protest, can be heard in the background. A woman is loaded onto a motorcycle with injuries. Fireworks are fired at government vehicles as they race about the nighttime city and clanking pans are heard echoing about the city. It's boneheaded to seize on a single scrap of uncertainty. You have to take in the big picture. Looking at all the images it is clear there were widespread protests. People were hurt. We see armed groups firing guns in the street, but not who they are firing at. We know local observers were calling some of them colectivos. We know from past protests that there is a history of men in civilian garb joining police and occasionally firing live ammunition towards rioters, presumably with the desire to disperse them. Can we prove exactly that the description in that video is accurate? I can't. It is by an opposition newspaper which you can certainly argue has a biased stance against the government. Rather than seizing on this or that snag of uncertainty, where does the flow of information carry us? I think there is a pretty clear picture that emerges. Perhaps you see something different though, so why don't you tell us what you think is happening in that video.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:02
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Is the pro Guaido camp beyond reproach so much that they need not provide proof of claims made?
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Apr 1, 2019 04:02
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GreyjoyBastard posted:
He put protestors in quotations a couple of posts ago, I think that speaks for itself.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:08
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Squalid posted:Perhaps you see something different though, so why don't you tell us what you think is happening in that video. Why? There is no point in needlessly speculating just to dispute unverified claims and doing anothers work, typically the one making the claim would provide evidence supporting such.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:17
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A lot of people choose some really dumb hills to die on when it comes to Venezuela and it continues to surprise me. There are so many interesting discussions to be had and yet we keep circling back to stuff like "Are colectivos real and do they really repress protestors?", "Is the supreme court really illegitimate?", "Is there really a humanitarian crisis in Venezuela? Because I saw a video of a supermarket and it didn't look like Mad Max". I'm sorry there aren't any videos of people wearing shirts with Maduro's face and little hearts and the word "Colectivo" in the back in neon orange, but come on, are we really going to argue those civilians shooting at protestors aren't politically affiliated? You can do better than that.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:20
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Labradoodle posted:shirts with Maduro's face and little hearts and the word "Colectivo" in the back in neon orange if any of you fuckers (except Labradoodle) attempt to market these before I do I'll be real mad
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Apr 1, 2019 04:24
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thatfatkid posted:Is the pro Guaido camp beyond reproach so much that they need not provide proof of claims made? The question is rather proof of what? How much confidence do you need in your proof? The difficulty of quantifying a "proof" of the veracity of the men in that video means we cannot ever be sure if we have reached the 95%. Instead we should try and prove bigger questions. Do protesters clash with colectivos? Do colectivos actively participate in crowd control? Were there protests tonight in Cotiza? Do anti-government protesters have a history of using firearms? These are more easily answered questions than ones directed at verifying a single video. Also I'm unclear on what point you were trying to make about Elliot Abrams. As far as I can tell his intentions are pretty clear and agreed upon by just about everyone. He is trying to remove Maduro by diplomatically isolating him and supporting Guiado. To this end he is applying economic pressure via sanctions with the intent of collapsing government revenue, spending and imports, cutting off the economic basis of his support. He and Bolton are trying to foment a military coup or revolt by getting officers to defect to Guiado. He has used threats of military force to constrain Maduro but seems to be trying to avoid actually going that far. What reasoning do you think is not being applied to Abrams itt? I don't understand what you are saying.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:25
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Repeating unverified claims does not make them anymore credible. How do we know that the video is of the same date as the protest? How do we know that the video is at the location of these protests? How do we know what the men are shooting at? How do we know that they are members of a colectivo? Why is it so much to ask that pretty serious claims be backed up by more than just "Well back in 2014..." etc. Critical thinking shouldn't be cast aside because it may slow down ones posting.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:25
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I think thatfatkid is channeling alex jones's spirit to cast doubt on the shootings. Does anyone know an exorcist?
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Apr 1, 2019 04:34
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