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Rust Martialis posted:Which coup? The one by Chavez (that failed), the one *against* Chavez (that failed), or the one by Maduro (that has succeeded) opposed by the legitimate National Assembly? Go ahead and demonstrate your own "critical thinking" and enlighten us. The one actively being agitated for by guaido and the US. What do you seek to achieve by presenting such disingenuous arguments?
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Apr 1, 2019 20:31
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Because if this was the case Telesur would be shouting it from the rooftops and someone in this thread would have said something by now. The fact this isn't happening suggests that the video is exactly what it's claimed to be: collectivos shooting at peaceful protestors. Does anyone else find it pathetic that the pro-Maduro posters will happily wave off all the *uncounted* dead and wounded protestors to act all horrified that *one* person was killed by a group during a protest (under disputed circumstances) and that somehow this *one* death totally delegitimizes the entire opposition? Of course nothing is troubling about torture or murder by the *state* for our heroes. They have no issues with state violence - for states they *like*.
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Apr 1, 2019 20:31
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thatfatkid posted:The one actively being agitated for by guaido and the US. What do you seek to achieve by presenting such disingenuous arguments? Because it's not a coup. The National Assembly is literally following the Chavez-written constitution. It's really no different than when Nixon was impeached - and not a coup. Ed: if you haven't, and from your repeated bouts of confusion you seem not to have, you really should read the vast amount of information in the first posts in this thread. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 20:33
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GreyjoyBastard posted:you can't prove the black guy was not in fact a thief as the mob accused him of Once again there is no proof in the video discussed that it was showing people shooting at protesters. Rust Martialis posted:Because it's not a coup. The National Assembly is literally following the Chavez-written constitution. It's really no different than when Nixon was impeached - and not a coup. Except of course for the fact that guaido has just suddenly declared himself president and the US is assisting with Elliott Abrams as is his handler. Yep definitely not a coup. thatfatkid fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 20:33
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I just came across this video, apparently from the San Martin area in western Caracas. It shows a group of anti-government protesters (there's a handful of them blocking the road at the start of the clip) just as a coletivo rolls up to them. The coelctivos are on their motorcycles, and you can see that one of them is carrying a PSUV flag. From a quick glance at the footage it doesn't seem like any of the coletivos are visibly armed, but you can imagine that the people who were protesting probably didn't want to stick around to find out. https://twitter.com/osmarycnn/status/1112759057985794050 As Labradoodle and others have pointed out, this kind of colectivo activity has to be understood within the context of Maduro calling on coletivos by name to take to the streets and "defend" the revolution. Private Witt linked a RT article earlier talking about the "Peace Gangs" (Cuadrillas de Paz). Here's a clip of Diosdado Cabello with some colectivos as part of this initiative to get the "Peace Gangs" out onto the streets to protect Maduro: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuU5z_K1YOg quote:Diosdado Cabello: Loyal, alwasy! Traitors, never! [repeated] Here we are, right in the middle of training for peace. Not only peace for the chavistas: peace for the opposition, and peace for those who don't like politics. It's our obligation to protect peace. Our people are organized, trained, alert and ready to defend peace. Today, we witnessed some extraordinary training by the integral defense popular units and the cuadrillas defensoras la paz. Those who are right here are the defenders of peace. Long live peace! Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 20:34
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Irony Be My Shield posted:How is a 'mostly bloodless internal revolt' a remotely plausible scenario when there are cells of heavily armed Maduro fanatics all over the country? That seems like a recipe for a brutal and prolonged civil war even if the military sides with Guiado (and it looks like it won't). yeah the an electoral solution at this point might require international pressure, which isn't great for the future legitimacy of the government and stability of Venezuelan institutions, but it might be able to rein in the peace gangs without, uh, too much violence than exists right now, between state power and hopefully applying the current National Assembly amnesty to the militia shitheads the military switching sides and couping the PSUV could obviously do those things, and obviously is also not great for legitimacy and stability meanwhile yeah, the peace gangs are very likely to roll out and kill people if a popular revolt actually threatens to bring down the PSUV; otoh, after a government's in place (or it forces new elections that way) the normal solutions still apply amnesty for the peace gangs' political murders and more entrepreneurial crimes, bribe their asses by confirming their control of the sort of stuff they're already getting, that sort of thing Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 20:35
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Rust Martialis posted:Because it's not a coup. The National Assembly is literally following the Chavez-written constitution. It's really no different than when Nixon was impeached - and not a coup. Well, I mean it's pretty different in that Nixon didn't create a parallel Congress, appoint military officers to key government positions, and pretend he couldn't be impeached by Congress.
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Apr 1, 2019 20:36
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Warbadger posted:Well, I mean it's pretty different in that Nixon didn't create a parallel Congress, appoint military officers to key government positions, and pretend he couldn't be impeached by Congress. Oh THAT part is clearly a coup, by Maduro.
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Apr 1, 2019 20:43
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The best case is probably actually most of the peace gangs being not particularly sincere and instead just motivated by self-interest. If all they're really interested in is resources and not getting punished for their extracurricular crimes, those are things that can be resolved by a non-Maduro government; if the vast majority are actually die-hard defenders of socialism and the Bolivarian Revolution, that's a Problem if they decide that President Lopez or whoever is utterly unacceptable.
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Apr 1, 2019 20:50
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Chuck Boone posted:I just came across this video, apparently from the San Martin area in western Caracas. I'm amazed that you can write so much about a video showing so little. Have you considered a career as a journslist for the NYT? Sure none of the people in the video are armed, but motorbikes are scary!
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Apr 1, 2019 20:50
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thatfatkid posted:I'm amazed that you can write so much about a video showing so little. Have you considered a career as a journslist for the NYT? So the fears of the protesters after all the Colectivo violence don't come into consideration?
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Apr 1, 2019 21:03
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Furia posted:I don’t think “the government should not kill civilians” constitutes “making the hunger worse” Colectivos are extremely good and should serve as a warning to people like you that you're supporting a civil war.
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Apr 1, 2019 21:10
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Rust Martialis posted:Nope, sorry, not chasing those goalposts. Let's revisit your prior statement. What error? Venezuela has been under sanctions for ages. Sanctions have continued to make the situation worse and worsen violence. Address the things you snipped, coward.
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Apr 1, 2019 21:11
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OP, I've got a question. What happens after? Venezula's export and other infrastructure has been beat on by noted counterrevolutionary Mean Mr. Entropy for decades. Someone needs to fix it, and Venezuela's already in debt up to its eyeballs. Losing the state to foreign investment would be a terrible way forward. What else is being considered?
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Apr 1, 2019 21:15
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Judakel posted:Colectivos are extremely good and should serve as a warning to people like you that you're supporting a civil war. You seriously think that pro-government militias that SHOOT UNARMED PROTESTERS ARE GOOD!
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Apr 1, 2019 21:15
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The Supreme Court has just announced that it is initiating the process of removing Guaido's parliamentary immunity. It's hard to tell what the next step is here. If the government wanted to detain Guaido, it would have done it (and in fact, Guaido was briefly arrested in late January) whether or not he has diplomatic immunity. I think that what we might be seeing is the government inching towards arresting Guaido by taking small steps to that end and gauging the response. Guaido's chief of staff was arrested in March, and I think that's part of the same process. The regime is probably trying to see what it can get away with, and if there really is a limit to what action it can take against Guaido. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 21:16
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Judakel posted:What error? Venezuela has been under sanctions for ages. Sanctions have continued to make the situation worse and worsen violence. Address the things you snipped, coward. You said sanctions caused colectivo violence. It has been pointed out to you (and you have evidently agreed) that this is untrue. You continued refusal to correct your error clearly indicates you are arguing dishonestly. Also, your use of insults is not helping your position, friend. I have given you multiple opportunities to admit your simple error, and you have refused. I'm not sure how that isn't itself deserving the epithet you so casually tossed at me. It really seems face-saving is more important to you than the truth.
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Apr 1, 2019 21:21
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Rust Martialis posted:You said sanctions caused colectivo violence. It has been pointed out to you (and you have evidently agreed) that this is untrue. You continued refusal to correct your error clearly indicates you are arguing dishonestly. Yes, that is true. Sanctions cause colectivo violence. No, I do not agree that it is untrue. Why do you think I do? I don't give a gently caress if it helps my position, friend. You seem to be reading someone else's posts instead of mine, so I have no idea why you think I am trying to save face and from what?
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Apr 1, 2019 21:23
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Judakel posted:Colectivos are extremely good and should serve as a warning to people like you that you're supporting a civil war. You're making a "why do you make me beat you" argument, in this case with civilian death. Reconsider.
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Apr 1, 2019 21:25
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Judakel posted:Yes, that is true. Sanctions cause colectivo violence. No, I do not agree that it is untrue. Why do you think I do? I don't give a gently caress if it helps my position, friend. You seem to be reading someone else's posts instead of mine, so I have no idea why you think I am trying to save face and from what? You said "Don't sanction a country in the hopes of destabilizing it and you won't have to worry about collectivos." This is clearly untrue, as colectivos and colectivo violence predated sanctions - therefore even without sanctions, you still "have to worry about collectivos (sic)". Hence, you are wrong. Why is it *so* hard for you to admit error? It really is a sign of a closed mind. Anyhow, this has become a pointless derail. Apologies to all, I will stop. Rust Martialis fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 21:31
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Sanctions cause Colectivos to murder unarmed protesters... That is just excusing the murder of unarmed protesters by saying 'the sanctions made him do it!'.
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Apr 1, 2019 21:31
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Glazius posted:OP, I've got a question. What happens after? I'm not an economist so I'm not the best person to answer this question. I can tell you that Guaido's point-man on the economy is Ricardo Hausman, who has all kinds of connections to the IADB and the IMF/World Bank. I also just saw this article pop up that I think you might be interested in.
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Apr 1, 2019 21:32
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Chuck Boone posted:I'm not an economist so I'm not the best person to answer this question. I can tell you that Guaido's point-man on the economy is Ricardo Hausman, who has all kinds of connections to the IADB and the IMF/World Bank. The Kingfish posted:https://twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1112742108958478339
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Apr 1, 2019 21:36
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Discendo Vox posted:You're making a "why do you make me beat you" argument, in this case with civilian death. Reconsider. You're literally advocating starving people. Reconsider. Rust Martialis posted:You said "Don't sanction a country in the hopes of destabilizing it and you won't have to worry about collectivos." This is clearly untrue, as colectivos and colectivo violence predated sanctions - therefore even without sanctions, you still "have to worry about collectivos (sic)". Hence, you are wrong. Do you see no difference between worsening violence and the mere inception of colectivos or are you simply pretending to be dumb? Don't run away. Answer the question, you coward. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 1, 2019 21:45
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A Venezuelan wanting regime change in Venezuela is bad?
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Apr 1, 2019 21:45
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Chuck Boone posted:I'm not an economist so I'm not the best person to answer this question. I can tell you that Guaido's point-man on the economy is Ricardo Hausman, who has all kinds of connections to the IADB and the IMF/World Bank. Oh, huh. The US is considering just telling Venezuela's creditors to gently caress off. I would respect that if it came from an administration less eager to badmouth and betray literally anyone because Cheeto said so.
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Apr 1, 2019 21:50
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Glazius posted:Oh, huh. The US is considering just telling Venezuela's creditors to gently caress off. I would respect that if it came from an administration less eager to badmouth and betray literally anyone because Cheeto said so. Its still a pretty great idea for how to deal with the mountains of debt secured by Venezuela's resources.
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Apr 1, 2019 21:54
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Pharohman777 posted:Its still a pretty great idea for how to deal with the mountains of debt secured by Venezuela's resources. There is a concept of "odious debt".
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Apr 1, 2019 22:03
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I'm still pretty annoyed that the incident where the venezuelan military killed a bunch of indigenous people got collectively memory-holed in favor of the truck fire circus.
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Apr 1, 2019 22:09
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Der Waffle Mous posted:I'm still pretty annoyed that the incident where the venezuelan military killed a bunch of indigenous people got collectively memory-holed in favor of the truck fire circus. Well, the truck fire circus was boosted in order to promote a false narrative. So...
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Apr 1, 2019 22:10
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Pharohman777 posted:Its still a pretty great idea for how to deal with the mountains of debt secured by Venezuela's resources. Yeah, no question, and working with Honduras to send aid and improve the conditions there to stem the flow of immigrants is way better than cutting it all off because they're a loser country of losers who never helped us. Guess how long after we signed the former Dumb Donald did the latter. (4 days. About half a Scaramucci.)
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Apr 1, 2019 22:18
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Pharohman777 posted:A Venezuelan wanting regime change in Venezuela is bad? yeah she's just an ordinary venezuelan. not a dishonest framing at all.
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Apr 2, 2019 00:14
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R. Guyovich posted:yeah she's just an ordinary venezuelan. not a dishonest framing at all. So is the complaint really that a politicians daughter got a op-ed in the New york times? Is the complaint really just 'she's arguing for regime change, and anybody saying that is evil and bad and wrong'?
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Apr 2, 2019 00:33
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Pharohman777 posted:So is the complaint really that a politicians daughter got a op-ed in the New york times? A blatantly biased person with family connections to the Guaido camp is being presented as just a typical Venezuelan that supports the pro Guaido coup. Do you seriously not see how this is an issue?
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Apr 2, 2019 00:37
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They gave the no-nothing daughter of some suit in Guaido’s cabinet-in-exile space to do a cutesy pro-intervention video to get millennials on board with Abrams and friends’ machinations.
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Apr 2, 2019 00:40
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Der Waffle Mous posted:I'm still pretty annoyed that the incident where the venezuelan military killed a bunch of indigenous people got collectively memory-holed in favor of the truck fire circus. Remember : Killing natives is A-OK when socialists do it, its only bad when the capitalists do it. Same thing with shooting anti-government protesters.
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Apr 2, 2019 01:41
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I wonder what this failchild of a neoliberal economist has to say...
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Apr 2, 2019 02:00
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Judakel posted:I wonder what this failchild of a neoliberal economist has to say... Comedian. Writer. Venezuelan Youtube Person. Joanna Rants. Correspondent for @Netflix’s “Bill Nye Saves the World” Alien and Monster voices on @Disney. Weirdo.
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Apr 2, 2019 02:15
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Pharohman777 posted:So is the complaint really that a politicians daughter got a op-ed in the New york times? let me know when the times gives a prime opinion slot to someone who's anti-coup
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Apr 2, 2019 02:23
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zapplez posted:Remember : Killing natives is A-OK when socialists do it, its only bad when the capitalists do it. Same thing with shooting anti-government protesters. Who is the socialist here? Maduro privitized so much of Venezuela that even the monopoly on the legitimate use of force is privitized.
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Apr 2, 2019 02:23
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