|
Greataval posted:Tanks are the worst give me top lane hyper carrys all day. Tanks are great and there's nothing like popping Riven into the air two or three times in a row because she got too thirsty for blood.
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 02:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 01:38 |
|
|
its just really dull to create characters that have safe wave clear and all around utility. poo poo like sion, maokai, poppy, chogath - its not interesting that they can go in lane, blindly slam their head on their keyboard and come out with really good farm because the dude wanted to avoid laning or conflict of any kind i like the idea of tanky cc bots but they should all have atrocious wave clear or extreme lane vulnerability or something. being able to say "i have no intention of playing or letting you play the first fifteen minutes of the game so im picking poppy" is just a loving waste of time. that most of them can enable ganks really well because all they do is crowd control people compounds the issue Verviticus fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Apr 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 03:58
|
|
|
Verviticus posted:its just really dull to create characters that have safe wave clear and all around utility. poo poo like sion, maokai, poppy, chogath - its not interesting that they can go in lane, blindly slam their head on their keyboard and come out with really good farm because the dude wanted to avoid laning or conflict of any kind Agreed
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 04:41
|
|
|
But that's not a problem with the design of the characters, it's a problem with the design of the game. Because if Mana actually mattered at all to these characters they wouldn't be able to do that. Also ideally top lane fighters can play around the really telegraphed damage of the top lane tanks, it's not on the tanks to outplay their opponent but on the opponent to outmaneuver the slow tanks.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 04:45
|
|
|
I'm gonna have to throw a fuckin red card out on this conversation and say that my good friend Sion "The Undead Juggernaut" does NOT deserve to be grouped in with those other champions. Dude is an above-average laner with interesting lane matchups revolving around how the enemy can play around/punish his Q channel time and has underratedly good surprise roam potential with his ultimate. Granted he only has a couple matchups (hi darius) where he can't sit back and farm pretty safely if things are starting to go pear-shaped for him but his early game is way more engaging than the likes of those other champs 
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 08:25
|
|
|
Sion is one of the best designed tanks currently in the game and his skills feel satisfying and powerful to use while still having ways the opponents to work around them by not being dumb, but he will struggle in the same conqueror/lifesteal/klepto matchups that top lane has become.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 08:31
|
|
|
Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Sion is one of the best designed tanks currently in the game and his skills feel satisfying and powerful to use while still having ways the opponents to work around them by not being dumb, but he will struggle in the same conqueror/lifesteal/klepto matchups that top lane has become. what about when he hits level 5 or whatever and can smash or freeze the wave from 900 range with no threat to himself hes fine to 1v1 but when every 1v1 becomes you vs sion and 6 creeps because he breathed on them, it becomes a lot less interesting and a lot more tedious
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 09:17
|
|
|
If he uses QWE to waveclear... he can't really do a whole lot else if you were to fight him? gone are the days when he could max E and waveclear and his Q ate a lot of damage nerfs and his W got 4 seconds added to the cooldown early and his mana costs were increased to where he can't spam in lane. He is the strongest tank currently in my option, but every tank is in a really bad place right now and they rely on telegraphed moves where every rework or new champ has multiple dashes and several mini-stuns and knockups. Right now the only "tanks" that can survive in top lane are champs like Urgot and Hecarim, both insanely hard to take down overtuned bruisers that have multiple CC moves and will 1 shot your teammates if ignored so you can't just flash their main cooldown and then kite and fight around them like you could the tanks that start with M like Malphite, Maokai and Mundo. Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Apr 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 11:05
|
|
|
Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Right now the only "tanks" that can survive in top lane are champs like Urgot and Hecarim, both insanely hard to take down overtuned bruisers that have multiple CC moves what ..? ?????
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 12:55
|
|
|
I disagree with all that because I like all those characters and find them fun to play.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 15:11
|
|
|
pog boyfriend posted:what ..? ????? What are you whating? is Hecarim not a super common pick top below diamond or is that a what for him being tanky with his normal items and his W? Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Apr 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 15:13
|
|
|
No he’s not super common and he’d probably get wrecked unless you were good with him.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 15:30
|
|
|
Invalid Validation posted:No he’s not super common and he’d probably get wrecked unless you were good with him. I see the problem, I checked the stat tracker sites and by the numbers he has a 15% pickrate in diamond and it falls sharply for each division below that, so that explains why people in the thread don't see him as much. He is a powerful top for his dueling/escaping/ganking potential and counterpicks most of the currently strong tops that aren't urgot. duck trucker posted:I disagree with all that because I like all those characters and find them fun to play. It's not about whether you like them or find them fun to play, I like them, my friends like them, that doesn't mean that aren't in a very bad place with 45% or lower winrates and hardcountered in champion select by most of the meta. Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Apr 1, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 15:36
|
|
|
Ra Ra Rasputin posted:What are you whating? is Hecarim not a super common pick top below diamond or is that a what for him being tanky with his normal items and his W? it is just a bunch of things you listed which are all not very accurate(by your own admission) painting a super weird picture of hecarim. he is not a tank with lots of cc. he has two ccs, one of which is very short duration, the other is his ult... and he is more damage than tank, etc. love to play hecarim top but that description was just weird
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 15:55
|
|
|
When I think tank I think sustained threat and distraction that takes a team effort to lock down and burn with a lot of focus, as for his CC mostly being on his ult, that's all malphite has.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 16:00
|
|
|
Ra Ra Rasputin posted:When I think tank I think sustained threat and distraction that takes a team effort to lock down and burn with a lot of focus, as for his CC mostly being on his ult, that's all malphite has. i guess that is fair, i have a stricter definition of tanks than you it seems. fair assessment. hecarim to me is more damage oriented than disruption oriented but he definitely has both going for him. when i think tanks i am more thinking a poppy or a sion where you get in the middle of the fray and start locking people down and messing up their formation
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 16:04
|
|
|
I'm all for being the Sion disrupting everything, been most of what I've played since his rework. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/218154251 But as people have said before, death is the ultimate CC.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 16:07
|
|
|
i dont think this is isolated just to top lane though, picks in this meta in general skew towards aggressive and high damage, and top lane picks are reflective of that change. if riot adds stronger defensive options they might be able to get pure tanks back in, but it looks like for now offense is the best defense
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 16:11
|
|
|
pog boyfriend posted:i guess that is fair, i have a stricter definition of tanks than you it seems. fair assessment. hecarim to me is more damage oriented than disruption oriented but he definitely has both going for him. when i think tanks i am more thinking a poppy or a sion where you get in the middle of the fray and start locking people down and messing up their formation while I don't typically think of hecarim as a tank one of the things he excels at is completely breaking apart a formation with his initiation
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 16:14
|
|
|
Hecarim is good but is not a tank at all, dude builds tri, steraks, ghostblade and guardian angel.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 16:18
|
|
|
Firebert posted:Hecarim is good but is not a tank at all, dude builds tri, steraks, ghostblade and guardian angel. I think ghostblade is actually kind of out of meta for top hec, I think it's tri into righteous glory/steraks/sv or ga/dead mans now, kind of like Illaoioiioi. But yeah, def a bruiser boy although he can get decently tanky by late game.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 20:00
|
|
RIP ZEEZ
|
Ra Ra Rasputin posted:If he uses QWE to waveclear... he can't really do a whole lot else if you were to fight him? gone are the days when he could max E and waveclear and his Q ate a lot of damage nerfs and his W got 4 seconds added to the cooldown early and his mana costs were increased to where he can't spam in lane. yeah, i mean my argument is that im happy with the way things currently are because tanks are unplayable, and my whining about them should be interpreted as talking about how they were, not how they're oppressive right now. i still ban sion but obv. maokai and poppy are mostly dumpster tier, thank god Ra Ra Rasputin posted:Right now the only "tanks" that can survive in top lane are champs like Urgot and Hecarim, both insanely hard to take down overtuned bruisers that have multiple CC moves and will 1 shot your teammates if ignored so you can't just flash their main cooldown and then kite and fight around them like you could the tanks that start with M like Malphite, Maokai and Mundo. i ran into a hecarim or two, picked garen, and didn't really see what the big deal was. yeah his W heals him a bunch but he struggled to trade also to be fair i dunno if you could ever fight 'around' mundo as an adc
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 22:27
|
|
|
IIRC top hecarim came about (this time) as a counter to aatrox, I imagine other matchups where he can similarly just dance around all their skillshots (Sion and Ornn come to mind) are where's he's strongest by a decent amount
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 22:51
|
|
|
Verviticus posted:its just really dull to create characters that have safe wave clear and all around utility. poo poo like sion, maokai, poppy, chogath - its not interesting that they can go in lane, blindly slam their head on their keyboard and come out with really good farm because the dude wanted to avoid laning or conflict of any kind Agreed. Riot hasn't really figured out a good way of handling the issue, since there's no real disincentive to building early defenses and then completely stalemating the lane as a tank. It's why they've left Conqueror in such a busted state for so long: it's a way of non-specifically forcing tanks out of top in a way that doesn't impact the rest of the ecosystem that much. I think the only way they can square this circle is to reorganize tank items to emphasize multiplicative defensive scaling later on and focus on early damage more. You could have an item that, say, gives AP, Armor, and HP, and then has a passive benefit that increases further bonus Armor by a percentage. The idea should be that buying pure survivability items early is highly gold inefficient, so that you're forced into purchasing items that increase future defensive scaling but have more offensive stats to open up the game with. A few of the tank champs could also have minor kit overhauls to try and introduce more counterplay or increase the failure rate of their abilities (since champions like Maokai are otherwise almost completely fuckup-proof and thus impossible to deal with if they're statistically stronger).
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 23:31
|
|
|
Giving tanks more damage early is just going to lead to infinite bitching about tanks doing damage, why are they doing damage, they shouldn't be able to do damage they're tanks. Even if you gut their defensive bases, that's exactly what'll happen.
|
|
#
?
Apr 1, 2019 23:56
|
|
|
mistaya posted:Giving tanks more damage early is just going to lead to infinite bitching about tanks doing damage, why are they doing damage, they shouldn't be able to do damage they're tanks. Even if you gut their defensive bases, that's exactly what'll happen. I mean, the alternative state is infinite bitching about how tanks don't take any damage, tanks just buy Ninja Tabi and they're invincible, it's impossible to fight tanks in lane, toplane is dead, etc., which is exactly what led to Conqueror in the first place. I can't really see any way forwards other than to make them more into credible damage threats early on before transitioning into proper tanks at a stage of the game (midgame) where it's appropriate to expect them to soak the damage of 3-5 people at once.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 00:02
|
|
|
It's probably bitching from people who let tanks free farm or don't cut off early leads, so they get to fight a +5k hp enemy in their first team fight, directly caused by their own inaction. It doesn't really matter how much damage the tank does at that point, they'll be able to hold on long enough to kill a lot of what comes at them
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 00:26
|
|
|
I guarantee that the bitchiest players are the carry mains complaining about anything that doesn't just evaporate whenever they push their buttons in a vaguely correct order.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 00:30
|
|
|
They could fix all of the problems in the game by bringing back THE METAGOLEM imo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 01:29
|
|
|
Deadmau5. Lemon Demon. Freezepop, parlevous freezepop? I play LoL since inception and I can literally say it's quite literally the most interesting game on the innernet. Ashe Teemo Nunu Ryze ... new champions all the rest Jussayin'
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 02:08
|
|
|
KingBomber69 posted:Deadmau5. Lemon Demon. Freezepop, parlevous freezepop?
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 02:46
|
|
|
Vermain posted:I mean, the alternative state is infinite bitching about how tanks don't take any damage, tanks just buy Ninja Tabi and they're invincible, it's impossible to fight tanks in lane, toplane is dead, etc., which is exactly what led to Conqueror in the first place. I can't really see any way forwards other than to make them more into credible damage threats early on before transitioning into proper tanks at a stage of the game (midgame) where it's appropriate to expect them to soak the damage of 3-5 people at once. a lot of champions just have specific fixes. poppy and maokai should have substantially reduced creep damage on their biggest wave clear, sions mana costs or cooldowns could be higher (we're saying this in a world where conqueror doesnt exist and these chars are viable or good again), stuff like that. its ok if they're generally hard to kill if they arent also able to safely just shove and walk away even champs like aatrox, akali (obviously not tanks) should stop having free, large damage zones and easy waveclear. instead of making champions actually have weaknesses and strengths in lane they keep making champions that are just generally pretty good or annoying and then keep dunking everything except large damage zones and waveclear. its such a colossal weakness in their design and im not sure they even acknowledge it
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 02:52
|
|
|
KingBomber69 posted:Deadmau5. Lemon Demon. Freezepop, parlevous freezepop? well said king bomber sixty nine
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 03:28
|
|
|
A toplaner without waveclear is pretty useless. e: especially a teamfighting top, who's entire job is to bounce the wave and haul rear end to wherever the fight is going to be before their team gets engaged on without a frontline. mistaya fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Apr 2, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 03:28
|
|
|
Verviticus posted:its such a colossal weakness in their design and im not sure they even acknowledge it The main reason is simply that champions with awful waveclear are at a severe disadvantage compared to champions with good waveclear. They've been slowly compressing champion waveclear down so that it's in a much narrower range than before, because major disparities lead to major balance problems (see: old Taliyah/Azir/ASol) unless they have insane power tucked into their kit somewhere (Shen R). With tanks, the problem is that they already have limited agency in how a game plays out. They're meant to do relatively low damage and have little kill pressure by design in exchange for being able to take a shitload of it, but that means your ability to swing the game during laning phase is usually limited to looking for enterprising roams. If they can't waveclear, then all they're really doing is sitting at turret, last hitting minions, and praying to god that their team is both competent enough to survive laning phase, aware enough to avoid roams from their lane, and competent/farmed enough to make use of their survivability and engages during midgame. This is why I think upping early damage in exchange for survivability being deferred to midgame is the only real way forward: you make them more vulnerable in lane without requiring lovely bandaids like Conqueror in exchange for giving them more individual agency in deciding their lane that doesn't revolve around either waiting for their jungler or buying Tabi and outstatting them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 03:52
|
|
|
The other problem here is that the game has consistently skewed towards damage being stronger than damage mitigation. Which means that Tanks have to be really good at certain things because the thing they’re meant to be good at doesn’t exist. Relatedly Riot gives champions with mobility and options higher damage instead of lower damage, so the champions who already have high skill based outplay also get high stats, tanks have low skill based gameplay compared to every other class and in return they should theoretically be able to withstand everyone else for more than 10 seconds at a time but largely they don’t.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 04:00
|
|
|
Lord_Magmar posted:The other problem here is that the game has consistently skewed towards damage being stronger than damage mitigation. Which means that Tanks have to be really good at certain things because the thing they’re meant to be good at doesn’t exist. As a rammus main, knowing that if a match makes it to late game I'll get melted within 2-3 seconds by the ADC/top laner even with my full build makes me very sad.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 06:12
|
|
|
Verviticus posted:a lot of champions just have specific fixes. poppy and maokai should have substantially reduced creep damage on their biggest wave clear, sions mana costs or cooldowns could be higher (we're saying this in a world where conqueror doesnt exist and these chars are viable or good again), stuff like that. its ok if they're generally hard to kill if they arent also able to safely just shove and walk away yeah, it is something i have been saying forever - riot seems to not budget waveclear properly, seeing “ability to clear the lane fast” as a neat parlour trick instead of a very powerful tool. anivia was revered for her ability to clear waves, and this was an ultimate ability. that alone should tell you how valuable wave clear should be treated, and yet riot keeps giving it out like a complimentary breath mint after a meal.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 14:24
|
|
|
Last hitting minions on a champion that doesn't build AD is the single worst, most unfun thing the game commonly asks you to do, and riot seems to have figured that out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 16:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 01:38 |
|
|
this conversation could easily be solved by removing the top lane and all who make their home there
|
|
#
?
Apr 2, 2019 17:19
|
|
