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I literally don't understand why you're so upset at the idea of an easy mode, you can just not play it. Its existence doesn't affect you in any way.
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Apr 2, 2019 10:40
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TexMexFoodbaby posted:https://gamerant.com/sekiro-corrupted-monk-reddit-quadriplegic/ also, get over yourself
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Apr 2, 2019 10:55
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Imagine a book just slammed shut after each chapter and demanded you provide an essay on what you just read, to make sure you really understood it.
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Apr 2, 2019 12:33
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“Don’t use other people as a shield, now here’s a disabled person who proves /my/ point”
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Apr 2, 2019 12:51
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TexMexFoodbaby posted:https://gamerant.com/sekiro-corrupted-monk-reddit-quadriplegic/ Having an extremely normal one.
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Apr 2, 2019 13:17
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Imagine a book just slammed shut after each chapter and demanded you provide an essay on what you just read, to make sure you really understood it. I feel like you are arguing this is a bad idea but after my time in TBB I am not sure it is Krazyface posted:I literally don't understand why you're so upset at the idea of an easy mode, you can just not play it. Its existence doesn't affect you in any way. I mean, I personally am not upset at the idea (that one dude clearly is though) as much as I am thinking about questions of game design/accessibility which I honestly just find kind of interesting. Like, personally, I still kind of floating around the idea that it is not necessarily unethical to make a game that lacks accessibility as long as the limitation to that access is not fundamentally discriminatory. Of course, that may be impossible. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Apr 2, 2019 |
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Apr 2, 2019 14:44
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Mystic Mongol posted:Some people are just straight scrubs, and they should be allowed to play games through to the end, too. but as the poet says, "no, I don't want no scrub / a scrub is a guy that can't get no love from me"
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Apr 2, 2019 15:01
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Halfcoordinated wrecks the poo poo out of platinum games character action games with one hand better than I can do with both hands. That doesn't mean we hold everyone to Halfcoordinated's level, and in fact, should make it easier for people like Halfcoordinated to play the games they like without herculean loving effort.Oxyclean posted:“Don’t use other people as a shield, now here’s a disabled person who proves /my/ point” "this one specific diasabled person coul beat the game so shut up about your ~virtue signaling~ and get good, scrubs" Mel Mudkiper posted:Like, personally, I still kind of floating around the idea that it is not necessarily unethical to make a game that lacks accessibility as long as the limitation to that access is not fundamentally discriminatory. Of course, that may be impossible. Making a thing less accessible to other groups, by its very nature, is pretty much always discriminatory in some fashion.
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Apr 2, 2019 15:14
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Mystic Mongol posted:Emotional appeals? I'll give you a loving emotional appeal, you miserable poo poo. lol
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Apr 2, 2019 15:17
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I saw a video of a boy without legs going up and down stairs. Clearly this means we do not need wheelchair ramps and elevators to make buildings accessible to disabled people and that people are just using them as a shield because they're too lazy to use stairs.
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Apr 2, 2019 15:18
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Imagine a book just slammed shut after each chapter and demanded you provide an essay on what you just read, to make sure you really understood it. Grieving mother, pillars of eternity. Not quite an essay but the disrespect was there.
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Apr 2, 2019 15:23
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https://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-4/sekiro-shadows-die-twice can't believe gaming journalisms anti-sekiro agenda smh 
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Apr 2, 2019 15:25
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Monathin posted:Making a thing less accessible to other groups, by its very nature, is pretty much always discriminatory in some fashion. Yeah, I guess what I am working through is that I do not think it is necessarily unethical for a designer to limit accessibility as long as it is not done in a way that discriminates against disability. Like, NES games like Ninja Gaiden are games that I, despite being totally physically fit, was never able to get good enough to beat, and I think that that's ok. As long as a person is able to access and interface with the game itself fairly I am not sure if being unwavering after that is unfair.
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Apr 2, 2019 15:25
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SagatPunisherFanFic posted:Grieving mother, pillars of eternity. She sucked anyway
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Apr 2, 2019 15:27
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Yeah, I guess what I am working through is that I do not think it is necessarily unethical for a designer to limit accessibility as long as it is not done in a way that discriminates against disability. shut the gently caress uip. i know someone who died who wouldve loved to play ninja gaiden on their deathbed but they couldnt
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Apr 2, 2019 15:28
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TexMexFoodbaby posted:https://gamerant.com/sekiro-corrupted-monk-reddit-quadriplegic/ Good lord, this is the 'my dad never used a seatbelt back when he drove and he was fine' of gaming arguments.
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Apr 2, 2019 15:32
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Like, NES games like Ninja Gaiden are games that I, despite being totally physically fit, was never able to get good enough to beat, and I think that that's ok. you can do it, i believe in you
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Apr 2, 2019 15:33
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Like, I don't think Sekrio being hard is inherently discriminatory? (Or at least, it sounds hyperbolic when compared to other accessibility & discrimination factors.) I don't think that's the point. I think the original point/argument is when the opportunity to provide accessibility exists at little cost, why not do it? (With the caveat that difficulty settings or assist modes are very much part of the accessibility equation.)
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Apr 2, 2019 15:38
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RareAcumen posted:Good lord, this is the 'my dad never used a seatbelt back when he drove and he was fine' of gaming arguments. Can we just be real and accept that journalists with brain problems and redditors are the guys that want easy mode and that persons with diverse ability are just a smoke screen? Just be real for 5 seconds and not make it an issue of inclusion when it is an issue of ego? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 2, 2019 15:39
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SagatPunisherFanFic posted:Can we just be real and accept that journalists with brain problems and redditors are the guys that want easy mode and that persons with diverse ability are just a smoke screen? uh-huh
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Apr 2, 2019 15:40
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SagatPunisherFanFic posted:Can we just be real and accept that journalists with brain problems and redditors are the guys that want easy mode and that persons with diverse ability are just a smoke screen? You might want to come up with a better insult then "brain problems" given the subject matter.
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Apr 2, 2019 15:43
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Oxyclean posted:Like, I don't think Sekrio being hard is inherently discriminatory? (Or at least, it sounds hyperbolic when compared to other accessibility & discrimination factors.) I don't think that's the point. I think the original point/argument is when the opportunity to provide accessibility exists at little cost, why not do it? (With the caveat that difficulty settings or assist modes are very much part of the accessibility equation.) Oh I agree I guess part of the issue is that I do think difficulty and impenetrability can be cohesive with a greater philosophy of game design. Like, since I was playing it all this weekend, lets talk about Myst. The original Myst was deliberately obtuse and impenetrable, and part of the point is that the nature of the game world was meant to contribute to that impenetrability. The difficulty wasn't an arbitrary decision, it was a cohesive part of the greater design. And, I would argue, that impenetrability was part of its critical and commercial appeal. Now, as someone said earlier "That's authorial intent, death of the author!" Not exactly. Death of the Author says that the author's intent doesn't inform how you engage with a piece of media. However, it doesn't mean the reader can make demands of the authorial figure. Death of the Author, in gaming, is pulling up a walkthrough for Myst. Its not what the developer intended, but it also doesn't mean you are wrong for doing it. You are playing the game on your own terms, and that is fine. However, you cannot hold the developer accountable for not including a walkthrough for you. They created a hard experience in their image of the cohesive "game". You can choose not to engage with it on that paradigm. However, the author is not responsible for providing you with the tools to do so. The reason I use Myst is because it is devoid of mechanical limitations. Someone who can only move an eyeball can still play Myst as well as the rest of us. The difficulty is entirely cerebral. However, with Souls games, that mechanical difficulty is as intrinsic to the overall design of the world and experience as the intellectual difficulty of Myst. The coherent experience requires physical challenge to the same level Myst requires an intellectual one. Now, this complicates it because creating a physical barrier creates actual limitations for a disabled player. Someone with a disability cannot engage in terms of dexterity on the same level as everyone else. The recommended solution is "add an easy mode" which makes sense. However, positing a future system that eliminates the physical hurdle to engaging with a game, is it still fair to expect concessions of a developer for options that do not match their vision? That's sort of the philosophical question I am wrestling with. In short, as long as physical limitations exist, concessions by the designer to allow for those limitations are fine. However, if we in a situation where all things are essentially mechanically equal, is it still reasonable to expect concessions of design?
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Apr 2, 2019 15:49
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SagatPunisherFanFic posted:Can we just be real and accept that journalists with brain problems and redditors are the guys that want easy mode and that persons with diverse ability are just a smoke screen? a gamergater by any other name still says m'lady
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Apr 2, 2019 15:50
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SagatPunisherFanFic posted:Can we just be real and accept that journalists with brain problems and redditors are the guys that want easy mode and that persons with diverse ability are just a smoke screen? Journalists are average people so if they're struggling that's a pretty good indication that hey, maybe this game needs a more comprehensive tutorial? I don't know why people are so hostile to the idea of game journalists and I'm not saying that they're paragons of great insight on video game mechanics or anything but that's pretty much the average player's impression. There's probably not gonna be someone who platinums every game and does boss rushes one-handed while being waterboarded doing reviews so people giving up on NIER because they don't look at the map is a good idea of what the average player is gonna do.
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Apr 2, 2019 15:54
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The recommended solution is "add an easy mode" which makes sense. However, positing a future system that eliminates the physical hurdle to engaging with a game, is it still fair to expect concessions of a developer for options that do not match their vision? That's sort of the philosophical question I am wrestling with. The answer to your philosophical debate Mel is that literally no finished product exists in the modern day that doesn't have some concession of design or authorial/developer intent. e: This isn't necessarily an inherently good or bad thing, but its a nature of the beast. Rough drafts to final draft to published product, alpha to beta to final build, all of these steps require concession of design or intent along the way to make for a better overall experience for the intended audience.
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Apr 2, 2019 15:54
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I think it's time for 
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Apr 2, 2019 15:54
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I Love Annie May posted:I think it's time for This isn't the Giant Bomb thread
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Apr 2, 2019 15:56
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Monathin posted:The answer to your philosophical debate Mel is that literally no finished product exists in the modern day that doesn't have some concession of design or authorial/developer intent. Well yeah, but I am not arguing so much for "the purity of the product" as much as if it is fair to condemn a game for not making concessions. Its not a question of "IT WILL HURT MIYAZAKIS INTENT!" as much as "is it fair to say 'Go gently caress Yourself Miyazaki' because there is no easy mode"
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Apr 2, 2019 15:58
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Mel Mudkiper posted:The recommended solution is "add an easy mode" which makes sense. However, positing a future system that eliminates the physical hurdle to engaging with a game, is it still fair to expect concessions of a developer for options that do not match their vision? That's sort of the philosophical question I am wrestling with. But I don't agree with the bolded notion. It's like a sliding scale. An easy mode does not remove the "physical" hurdle, it just lowers it. Someone who is less able or less skilled will still encounter it as a hurdle, and arguably just as much of a hurdle as someone more able playing in a normal mode. I'm repeating what I said before, but I don't feel like it's a concession of vision to have options if you signpost the intended experience.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:01
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Well yeah, but I am not arguing so much for "the purity of the product" as much as if it is fair to condemn a game for not making concessions. Its not a question of "IT WILL HURT MIYAZAKIS INTENT!" as much as "is it fair to say 'Go gently caress Yourself Miyazaki' because there is no easy mode" I mean I think that you're engaging in a stark binary here. I think in a day and age where people are trying to be more inclusive no accessibility options (which inude difficulty settings and assist mode) is kind of an extremely fair criticism that should be yelled out as loud and clear as possible. Personally speaking I tell Miyazaki to go gently caress himself because all of the soulsborne games have uniformly garbage dogshit ui, which is where the scales tip from accessibility to "poo poo you should really have ironed out by now"
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Apr 2, 2019 16:03
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Oxyclean posted:But I don't agree with the bolded notion. It's like a sliding scale. An easy mode does not remove the "physical" hurdle, it just lowers it. Someone who is less able or less skilled will still encounter it as a hurdle, and arguably just as much of a hurdle as someone more able playing in a normal mode. I'm repeating what I said before, but I don't feel like it's a concession of vision to have options if you signpost the intended experience. Well yeah, but that is where we disagree I don't see a problem with a game design being "gently caress you, git gud" I see a problem with telling a disabled person "gently caress you, git gud" If universal hardware improvements can significantly limit the barrier to play for ALL games for those with disabilities, I have no problem with a game designer going "We will never make an easy mode because gently caress the scrubs"
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Apr 2, 2019 16:12
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TexMexFoodbaby posted:https://gamerant.com/sekiro-corrupted-monk-reddit-quadriplegic/ Did you just "get good" every disabled person on the planet? If those quadrospaz FUCKS want to play our games they better all rise to the superhuman standards set by this one guy.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:15
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To repeat myself for like the 100th time: There's more barriers then physical ones. No amount of specialty controllers are going to help disabilities that impair you reaction time and decision making skills. Something like more generous reaction windows or more opportunities to fail can help with something like that. quote:I have no problem with a game designer going "We will never make an easy mode because gently caress the scrubs" That's still an extraordinarily dumb attitude to have, on some level, but at some point I can only say "well I guess that's your prerogative." That attitude certainly worked well for Wildstar.  and I mean, in most other situations people balk at devs being like "gently caress you we're right."
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Apr 2, 2019 16:21
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Well yeah, but that is where we disagree There are all kinds of different disabilities, and these hypothetical hardware improvements will be more or less effective depending on what disabilities a person has. More options will always, always be better than less options when it comes to accessibility. If you're creating a hypothetical where these hardware improvements effect all people with disabilities equally then uh sure I guess that's fine?
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Apr 2, 2019 16:23
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Oxyclean posted:That's still an extraordinarily dumb attitude to have, on some level, but at some point I can only say "well I guess that's your prerogative." Then let the studios that do it fail if it will lead to failure imho. If From Software games being impenetrable lead to their financial failure then they hosed up and we can laugh at em for it.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:24
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Viridiant posted:There are all kinds of different disabilities, and these hypothetical hardware improvements will be more or less effective depending on what disabilities a person has. Oxyclean posted:To repeat myself for like the 100th time: There's more barriers then physical ones. No amount of specialty controllers are going to help disabilities that impair you reaction time and decision making skills. Something like more generous reaction windows or more opportunities to fail can help with something like that. I mean, if we beginning to talk about cognitive disability along with physical disability than frankly I think we are getting to a point where no game will ever sufficiently be adaptable to every conceivable limitation. Physical disability is at least something that acts as a tangible impediment to the game as it was designed to function. Once we start thinking about how to implement for cognitive disability it becomes almost impossible to make a coherent game at all. Should Myst have a "every puzzle is solved" mode?
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Apr 2, 2019 16:27
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Mel you are venturing dangerously close to the gigabrain take of "we can't compensate for everything so we should do nothing" also most puzzle games have hints of some sort to assist you. Assit modes for action games for people with reaction time problems is a perfectly servicable compromise. I don't see where you're having an issue here.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:30
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this is the dark souls of video game accessibility discussions
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Apr 2, 2019 16:34
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Monathin posted:Mel you are venturing dangerously close to the gigabrain take of "we can't compensate for everything so we should do nothing" Not at all. I am not saying we should never compensate for anything because we cannot compensate for everything. I am just pointing out that every developer at some level makes a hard limit on far the game design can be bent to accommodate more players so at some point we have to acknowledge that even the most well intentioned design will still be exclusionary Monathin posted:also most puzzle games have hints of some sort to assist you. Assit modes for action games for people with reaction time problems is a perfectly servicable compromise. I don't see where you're having an issue here. Again, my issue is with expectation. I am not saying a game should not have an assist mode, I am saying its unfair to condemn a developer for not including one. A puzzle game can have a hint mode, but its not a moral failure for a puzzle game to not include one.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Then let the studios that do it fail if it will lead to failure imho. If From Software games being impenetrable lead to their financial failure then they hosed up and we can laugh at em for it. People are using Sekrio as an example to talk about the issue broadly. You know, to raise awareness in hopes to create a trend of other developers being more conscious about difficulty settings? Arguably people are also just venting / expressing disappointment about Sekrio's lack of difficulty settings which is just as loving valid as any other complaint about a game. People poo poo all over games for DRM and business practices and you don't see half as much gnashing of teeth and people rushing to their defence. Also, why not use this logic on all things? Don't bother calling out companies on poor colourblind settings or poor subtitle settings, just hope the free market sorts them out!
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Apr 2, 2019 16:36
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