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People who can't handle denuvo just need to get (a) gud(er computer) e: of course my shitpost ends up as a page topper.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:37
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Oxyclean posted:Arguably people are also just venting / expressing disappointment about Sekrio's lack of difficulty settings which is just as loving valid as any other complaint about a game. Because using disability as a shield to justify frustrations a game is too hard is a hosed up thing to do. I am responding to when a question of difficulty is discriminatory because I take it on good faith that this is an issue of discrimination and disability rights. If its "its unfair for the disabled" and "Its just too hard for me" become mixed up its co-opting a legitimate social concern with a personal one.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:39
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I am going to say something right now that I think is going to make people skeptical of accessibility options feel way better. A game is never going to fail because of lack of accessibility options. Like, that's not going to happen. All we are doing is saying that developers should try their best to provide as many accessibility options as they can. Some of us might think they're assholes for not trying to do this. This does not hurt the developer's feelings as they probably don't know we even exist, nor will that hurt the sales of their game.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:41
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How many people like action games but find them too challenging to enjoy versus the same but instead it's puzzle games? I know a lot of people who "casually" enjoy action-oriented games but I've never met a single person in my life who plays puzzle games on the regular that isn't attuned with a particular kind of problem-solving mindset. They either really enjoy puzzle games and play a whole lot of them, or they really don't and avoid the whole category like the plague. I know a lot of Puzzle-Majors/Action-Minors, but not a single person in any of my circles is Action-Major/Puzzle-Minor. Not to say they don't exist, but I play a lot of dang video games and I figure I'd run into a few here or there at some point.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:42
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Viridiant posted:All we are doing is saying that developers should try their best to provide as many accessibility options as they can. Some of us might think they're assholes for not trying to do this. This does not hurt the developer's feelings as they probably don't know we even exist, nor will that hurt the sales of their game. Absolutely, but the question I am interested in as what point is it fair to a developer to consciously limit accessibility because it doesn't match their philosophy of design?
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Apr 2, 2019 16:42
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Emalde posted:I know a lot of Puzzle-Majors/Action-Minors, but not a single person in any of my circles is Action-Major/Puzzle-Minor. Not to say they don't exist, but I play a lot of dang video games and I figure I'd run into a few here or there at some point. Hi, that's me
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Apr 2, 2019 16:45
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Because using disability as a shield to justify frustrations a game is too hard is a hosed up thing to do. I am responding to when a question of difficulty is discriminatory because I take it on good faith that this is an issue of discrimination and disability rights. If its "its unfair for the disabled" and "Its just too hard for me" become mixed up its co-opting a legitimate social concern with a personal one. It can be both things.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:45
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Andrast posted:Hi, that's me That checks out. I just treat FEH as a numbers game anyway because I'm dumb 
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Apr 2, 2019 16:47
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Oxyclean posted:It can be both things. Well no, because one is an issue of discrimination and the other isn't
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Apr 2, 2019 16:47
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To throw some of my own grease into this trash fire, I always thought that Dark Souls already had some degree of difficulty options. But that's more specifically in reference to the option of kindling (which increases your amount of healing substantially) As well as the option of summoning other players or bots for help as actual dynamic adjustments to the difficulty of specific sections. Summoning in particular utterly trivializes large parts of the content of Dark Souls due to enemies being really bad at fighting multiple opponents. The option also becomes inaccessible once the player has successfully completed an area and cleared out the boss, which suggests the notion that it's primarily there to help a player past getting stuck (as well being there just for fun, I suppose). And a lot of the people that would scoff at the inclusion of maybe even more options to adjust the difficulty of a game have probably engaged in these options when playing the game themselves. But as soon as developer slaps the "easy" label on an option in a menu, everyone freaks out and considers it a point of shame. I suppose the best way about it is to just include these dynamic options but not tell players about the fact that they are making things easier for themselves? Dark Souls is a weird example for difficulty in video games in any case, because it's mechanically related to RPGs. To some degree the player can just use consumables, items, levelling and whatever to further remove difficulty from the game. It's hardly a controlled environment with specific tests of reflex or skill. Thinking outside the box of "hit enemy with sword" or even just packing a bow utterly ruins a lot of the challenges the game sets up for the player, but that in itself is incredibly rewarding for players. Because they get to feel smart rather than only getting rewarded for twitch action game reflexes. And having more options, in particular accessibility options for people with disabilities is only a good thing for these games. That said, the industry still somehow manages to gently caress up the very basics of including subtitles or even checking whether a colour blind mode might be prudent, both of which should be the bare minimum. Wasn't there, like, some big title releases just last year that didn't include subtitles? I remember hearing about something like that. Speaking of games that have some non-trivial content and to bring it back to the best friends: I recently got around to finally finishing Hollow Knight and I remember Woolie mentioning that he played the game. Did he stream any of that or was he just playing that on his own? I specifically avoided all discussion of the game and skipped the parts where they brought it up in the podcast due to wanting to go into it blind.
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Apr 2, 2019 16:51
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Well no, because one is an issue of discrimination and the other isn't I mean as in, people can both feel "hey the difficulty is abrasive in a way that stops me from enjoying the game" and "this difficulty likely poses an accessibility issue for the disabled" Like I kinda don't care about the whole 'using people as a shield" argument because the side arguing in flavor of difficulty is doing the exact same thing they're accusing the other side of. You keep talking about philosophy of design, and my perspective of the philosophy of the issue is "why does it matter? if the option exists to offer an easy mode without compromising the normal mode, that is a net positive because it will benefit a spectrum of people, both disabled and otherwise."
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Apr 2, 2019 16:58
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Oxyclean posted:You keep talking about philosophy of design, and my perspective of the philosophy of the issue is "why does it matter? if the option exists to offer an easy mode without compromising the normal mode, that is a net positive because it will benefit a spectrum of people, both disabled and otherwise." Because the difficulty is essential to the story and world as designed There seems to be an idea that "world" is in one corner and "difficulty" is in the other, but for the Souls games difficulty, obscurity, and impenetrability are a coherent part of narrative, world, and gameplay. You cannot alter one without altering the whole. Its not a question of "just add Easy Mode" if the game is designed as a coherent experience.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:02
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Oxyclean posted:
It doesn't. You could have an option that turns off all the enemies in the game and makes it a scenery viewing adventure and it wouldn't make one jot of difference to the people playing on standard setting as the designers intended. The terrible truth that undermines all of this "mai difficulty" bollocks.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:03
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:It doesn't. You could have an option that turns off all the enemies in the game and makes it a scenery viewing adventure and it wouldn't make one jot of difference to the people playing on standard setting as the designers intended. If this is directed at me, I have never suggested that an easy mode would affect "my" experience.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:04
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Zwiebel posted:Speaking of games that have some non-trivial content and to bring it back to the best friends: I think he played it while Best Friends was still going and while he still wasn't really streaming so I imagine that was just on his own time.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:09
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I was speaking of the broader Gamer gatekeeping whenever 'easy modes' come up in gaming.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:09
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Because the difficulty is essential to the story and world as designed Again, I need to bring back the point of a "sliding scale." Let's say an average game player is going to have a difficulty tolerance of lets say, 5. This is a very nebulous idea, but it's a way to conceptualize an ability to learn mechanics, react to things, memorize enemy behaviour, and improve at the game in general. Someone like that is going to struggle but get through souls. Someone with a tolerance of 7 might do it much more quickly. Someone at a 3, maybe can't at all. An easy mode means that person at 3 is getting through like the person at 5 was under normal. An easy mode does not inherently remove difficulty.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:14
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Oxyclean posted:Again, I need to bring back the point of a "sliding scale." Yes but the difficulty of a Souls game is not something that can be easily defined. Do you lower damage? Have more items? Make the paths more visible with a highlighted golden arrow? Create inter-bonfire checkpoints? Turn off traps? Make traps have less damage? Remove enemies from all chokepoints? This is what I mean when I say the world is designed around its difficulty. Making it easier isn't just altering some AI conditions or damage values, its literally redesigning how the character player with the world. The difficulty of a Souls game, Sekiro included, is only marginally contained in the damage done by the monsters and bosses. Like, how do you make Sen's Fortress on easy mode?
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Apr 2, 2019 17:18
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Yes but the difficulty of a Souls game is not something that can be easily defined. Aside from a few key points in the franchise (Anor Londo archers, Shrine of Amana), it's almost always the bosses that are the big roadblocks for players.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:21
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Zwiebel posted:To throw some of my own grease into this trash fire, I always thought that Dark Souls already had some degree of difficulty options. Underrated post. I love how Souls games do difficulty for exactly the reasons you said. In Sekiro it's kinda the same thing but it's not immediately apparent. Stealth can trivialize most enemies, even minibosses, since you can just turn back, hide for a while, and just stab them when they forget about you. Some items and prosthetics also trivialize bosses and normal enemies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIjtl7YopEA To me the Souls-style of difficulty is the ideal method of doing difficulty in a game. You never tell the player "This is easy mode" or "This is hard mode", you just add things in that make the game easier or harder and let the players make their own judgments about how they wanna play. Accessibility options (subtitles, color-blind mode, and other things) are definitely a must however, and the more they add the cooler imo. What would be a nice accessibility option that more games should have?
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Apr 2, 2019 17:27
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Andrast posted:Aside from a few key points in the franchise (Anor Londo archers, Shrine of Amana), it's almost always the bosses that are the big roadblocks for players. I am not sure this is true Blighttown probably killed more runs than Capra Demon ever did Big Scary Owl posted:Underrated post. I love how Souls games do difficulty for exactly the reasons you said. In Sekiro it's kinda the same thing but it's not immediately apparent. Stealth can trivialize most enemies, even minibosses, since you can just turn back, hide for a while, and just stab them when they forget about you. Some items and prosthetics also trivialize bosses and normal enemies: Yeah, exactly, this is what I meant by the wall metaphor earlier. The boss is a wall. You have options to get over the wall, but the wall isn't moving.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:28
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Big Scary Owl posted:Underrated post. I love how Souls games do difficulty for exactly the reasons you said. In Sekiro it's kinda the same thing but it's not immediately apparent. Stealth can trivialize most enemies, even minibosses, since you can just turn back, hide for a while, and just stab them when they forget about you. Some items and prosthetics also trivialize bosses and normal enemies: Sekiro is difficult and most hard encounters do not have things that trivialize them. Against minibosses you can deplete one of their health point (and the game expects you to do so), after you usually just have to get good.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:29
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Andrast posted:Sekiro is difficult and most hard encounters do not have things that trivialize them. Such as? I am having trouble thinking of any.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:30
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Such as? I am having trouble thinking of any. Most of the actual bosses in the game.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:31
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Andrast posted:Most of the actual bosses in the game. Yeah, I know, most bosses have item specific weaknesses you can exploit. Like, name one that you feel doesn't have an in-game assist you can use
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Apr 2, 2019 17:32
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I can't believe we have someone unironically going "Sekiro isn't actually hard you just haven't figured how to trivialize it  "
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Apr 2, 2019 17:32
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Andrast posted:I can't believe we are actually at the "Sekiro isn't actually hard you just haven't figured how to trivialize it No, we are at the "the game has organic difficulty in how it lets you approach bosses" vs. "no it doesn't" stage If you think there is a boss that doesn't have an organic difficulty name it so we can talk about it. Quit just saying its there and not making even a slight effort to demonstrate.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:34
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Mel Mudkiper posted:No, we are at the "the game has organic difficulty in how it lets you approach bosses" vs. "no it doesn't stage" What abilities trivialize Genichiro or Owl? Almost all bosses in that game are pretty difficult even if you figure out the specific trick to make them somewhat easier.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:35
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Andrast posted:What abilities trivialize Genichiro or Owl? Ah, I see the problem for you. There is a secret wall in the castle that allows you to find the ability to git gud Ok, just kidding But seriously though, Crow's Feathers and Firecrackers Andrast posted:Almost all bosses in that game are pretty difficult even if you figure out the specific trick to make them somewhat easier. Well now you are arguing trivialization with nullification.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:37
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Ah, I see the problem for you. There is a secret wall in the castle that allows you to find the ability to git gud If you think those things trivialize either boss you are probably better at Sekiro than 99% of the people who play the game
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Apr 2, 2019 17:38
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Andrast posted:If you think those things trivialize either boss you are probably better at Sekiro than 99% of the people who play the game Serious talk I actually have incredibly weak reflexes, like doctor says bottom 20% of the population level weak
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Apr 2, 2019 17:39
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Serious talk I actually have incredibly weak reflexes, like doctor says bottom 20% of the population level weak Congrats on being better at Sekiro than 99% people who play the game even while having bad reflexes
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Apr 2, 2019 17:41
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I think you can also throw the sand/dust item at them but to be fair I've never tried that.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:42
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Souls Fans continue to be The Worst, news at five.
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Apr 2, 2019 17:43
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Mystic Mongol posted:Punch in the Konami code on the title screen, and the title becomes Sekiro die Thirty Times. I don't even know how many pages ago this was, but I just wanted bring attention to this joke because I really liked it.
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Apr 2, 2019 18:16
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Huge wha happun here https://twitter.com/Kotaku/status/1113104117625389056?s=19
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Apr 2, 2019 18:31
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ArmyOfMidgets posted:Huge wha happun here Pity he already did the anthem episode
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Apr 2, 2019 20:03
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haha god drat pat with the real truths
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Apr 2, 2019 20:08
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Dias posted:Souls Fans continue to be The Worst, news at five. The most frustrating thing with every release is "hey I found an actual proper issue with the game (anything from a bug to some oversight)," being responded to with "no it's perfect, From games are actually insanely easy because they give you so many tools to play with." Then within a year, those superfans are making videos and spamming comments talking about all of the things wrong with that game and how it's now the worst in the series if you examine the design elements. One of the first times I ever heard Pat talk, he was ragging on Demon's Souls and Dark Souls because he hated the games at first because (I love this series mind) almost every single title in the series sucks at conveying important details to the player. From nonsensical item or stat descriptions to how even magic or backstabbing is supposed to work in some of them, it's 100% understandable when they cause anyone to bounce off the titles, and those issues won't get fixed when reviews get scared to bring them up as things that can be improved upon. I felt the same way as Pat initially to the point where the SBFP videos helped me into the series by Pat realizing what hurt his initial experiences and pulling down a lot of the barriers that kept me out initially.
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Apr 2, 2019 20:10
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Indecisive posted:haha god drat pat with the real truths It was this, wasn't it. https://www.twitch.tv/castlesuperbeast/clip/TrappedSleepyNarwhalAMPEnergyCherry
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