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I'm always really interested in the balance of complexity--whether the gameplay is complex because of the encounters and levels, or whether a lot of the complexity comes from just executing what your character needs to do. It's definitely a sliding scale between encounter complexity and mechanical complexity. I find that I tend to be less fond of complexity based largely around class combat mechanics than many MMO players are--I think it's okay if a class's mechanics are fairly straightforward so long as the content you're doing is where the engaging complexity is from--but there's still plenty in FFXIV for me to love so the relatively complex class design isn't a huge barrier for me. And actually, WoW isn't the right balance for me, either, and might even be a worse balance. Yeah, class design is a lot simpler and more direct, but I'm actually not really a huge fan of a lot of WoW's content design compared to FFXIV, and that part is a lot more important to me.
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Apr 4, 2019 17:34
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wow fights have become incredibly bloated with mechanics. so they seem to be more concerned with you performing certain tasks or properly moving than making sure you're pressing the correct button out of 20 options. but after having played mmos for nearly 20 years now i am tired of keeping track of a boss that does 30 different things so i eventually, intentionally, switched to the easiest class to play (beastmaster hunter). being a range class with no cast times and unhindered movement actually made some of the fights fun. playing anything else where my cast times were interrupted every 2 seconds or i had to continually chase things down as melee just made the entire encounter an exercise in frustration. my experience in ff14 so far has been a decent middle ground.
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Apr 4, 2019 17:40
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Kurieg posted:Wow raid fights tend to require a lot more situational awareness and mechanical complexity, there's no way I'd want to be playing a BLM in Uldum. But they've really pared down on the class design since Mists of Pandaria. They moved a lot of our "class fantasy"(one of their favorite terms) into our artifact weapons and then removed them wholesale with BFA without adding much back, and what they did add back was through talents. I'm honestly not even sure this is true. Is anything in Mythic Uldir genuinely as complicated to execute as O12S? A lot of the difficulty of Mythic raiding comes from A) how poorly WoW communicates its mechanics, how much you rely on mods to even parse what's happening B) Volume of people who need to not gently caress up on a barrage of individually quite simple mechanics. But you wanna talk about situational awareness and mechanical complexity? Hello, Patch and Hello World 1 & 2 are this way. That's a dance that requires a lot of coordination while also executing vastly more complicated DPS rotations at the same time.
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Apr 4, 2019 17:47
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FF14 has a bunch of mechanics, but the design language is always straight forward and the complexity comes from the combination of mechanics and the consistent timings. Having boss encounters that will consistency do X, then Y, then Z allows for the encounters to be more involved without it just being a “hey you’re still here, right?” idle check every 45 seconds. There’s only been a handful of instances where it’s been too much or unfair (hello middy, i didn’t see you come in), but there’s definitely a clear line between clearing content and optimizing your encounters. Game is good.
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Apr 4, 2019 17:53
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I don't know? I'm just getting back into ARR after getting burned out on WoW. And even with ARR's lack of an encounter journal I'm usually able to figure out what i'm supposed to do with minimal instruction or after a wipe or two. Whereas even normal fights in battle for darza-alor have several pages of mechanics.
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Apr 4, 2019 17:53
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I kinda miss wow healing, it was the most complicated game of whack a mole and I thought that was great
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Apr 4, 2019 18:07
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Pretty much nothing in FFXIV has actually complicated mechanics outside of savage raids and a handful of extreme primals. And the ultimate raids, of course. Nearly everything else can be seen and understood after the first go, or maybe the second if you were blindsided by something you weren't paying attention to. Having a consistent "fight language" since late ARR goes a long way towards this, as well as the fact that most mechanics are based entirely around timing and precise positioning. Even Hello World, where every party member has to remember 2-4 different things they may have to do and will wipe the raid if they don't do it right, is largely resolved by everybody moving to pre-determined locations in the right order. You're just also pressing a hell of a lot of buttons at the same time to do good damage or not let dps players die half way through the mechanic due to unavoidable hits. I think Titan in UWU is the only time I've ever felt I might actually need to rely on a third party tool to handle a mechanic once I've learned it.
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Apr 4, 2019 18:09
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Thundarr posted:Pretty much nothing in FFXIV has actually complicated mechanics outside of savage raids and a handful of extreme primals. And the ultimate raids, of course. Nearly everything else can be seen and understood after the first go, or maybe the second if you were blindsided by something you weren't paying attention to. Having a consistent "fight language" since late ARR goes a long way towards this, as well as the fact that most mechanics are based entirely around timing and precise positioning. And pretty much nothing in wow has complicated mechanics outside of the hardest modes, so it seems like kind of a moot point?
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Apr 4, 2019 18:12
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Xun posted:I kinda miss wow healing, it was the most complicated game of whack a mole and I thought that was great GIVE ME LIFEBLOOM YOSHIP
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Apr 4, 2019 18:14
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One of the big differences between wow and FF14 is that wow has a base 1.5s cooldown and most classes want to add a lot of haste on top of that. It's common to play with 1s GCDs for at least part of the time. There are no animation locks so off-GCDs happen as soon as you press them, which means the button spam requirements for the faster-paced classes can get quite high. Blizzard are much more fond of reactive abilities in general, and wow has a lot clickable equipment with on-use effects or procs that you want to line up with other cooldowns which add quite a bit to the overall complexity. The fight design kind of varies. Raids tend to have a lot of boss-specific mechanics and a lot reactive elements, both of which mean it's much harder to plan out a fight compared to FF14 (caveat: I haven't done any savage raids at all). Wow raids are also larger, both in how many fights there are any how many players there are, and while most difficulties scale with raid size the top difficulties force 20 man raids. There's a lot of complex coordinated dancing or other cooperative mechanics: one of the fights in the last raid has one player defuse a bomb using a code that only another player can see, and the raid before that ended with a widely hated raid wide 6-12 man relay race mechanic. High-end dungeons are done in a punishing timed mode with an infinitely scalable difficulty setting and random affixes borrowed from Diablo 3 that will add bombs your DPS need to clear, put a dot to any player not at 100% health and that sort of thing. At the top end making the timer tends to be heavily gated by your ability to clear punishingly hard trash, which puts a big focus on managing huge mob packs through some combination of threat, kiting, knockbacks and stuns. There's an ongoing dungeon speed run tournament which might give some indication of what the game looks like at the bleeding edge nowadays. On the whole wow is faster-paced and typically more chaotic. FF14 is more rigid and comparably favors preparation over on the fly execution.
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Apr 4, 2019 18:15
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Xerophyte posted:One of the big differences between wow and FF14 is that wow has a base 1.5s cooldown and most classes want to add a lot of haste on top of that. It's common to play with 1s GCDs for at least part of the time. There are no animation locks so off-GCDs happen as soon as you press them, which means the button spam requirements for the faster-paced classes can get quite high. Blizzard are much more fond of reactive abilities in general, and wow has a lot clickable equipment with on-use effects or procs that you want to line up with other cooldowns which add quite a bit to the overall complexity. But this isn't true because you can just make a macro to mash with all of your cooldowns and on-use items. And in practice, most of the people running high end mythics will just not bother with some dungeons and some affixes, or they'll just barrel through it because it's a +15 key and they don't have to make time on it to get the rewards for the week. I've been in my fair share of 300+ death mythic+ runs for the weekly.
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Apr 4, 2019 18:26
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Hi thread, quick question. Is there anyway to transfer macros from the PC to a PS4? Or to copy ones from pastebin on a PS4?
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Apr 4, 2019 18:41
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:And pretty much nothing in wow has complicated mechanics outside of the hardest modes, so it seems like kind of a moot point? you have to realize you're probably in the minority thinking this, right? or we have different ideas of what complicated means. if complicated means "takes the best players in the game 100-500 attempts to kill a boss" then yes, almost nothing in the game is complicated. but a significant portion of the playerbase is going to find heroic (and maybe even normal) g'huun overwhelming.
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Apr 4, 2019 18:56
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We’re working on heroic dazaralor right now and the council fight has so many dumb things to keep track of. I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily complicated but for my aging brain it’s hard to keep up sometimes.
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Apr 4, 2019 19:06
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CuddlyZombie posted:Hi thread, quick question. Is there anyway to transfer macros from the PC to a PS4? Or to copy ones from pastebin on a PS4? Apparently using the backup tool can transfer macros https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/playguide/win/config/
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Apr 4, 2019 19:08
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World War Mammories posted:GIVE ME LIFEBLOOM YOSHIP I mean, Excogitation is like, 50% of Lifebloom?
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Apr 4, 2019 19:14
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I loathe loving up in FFXIV. And its always because I'm watching an area of my screen for a thing to happen or take care of someone from a thing and another thing comes out of nowhere that I forget about and I fall over dead sometimes. Even though I know that it's 100% scripted and always going to happen at X time, sometimes you just forget when EVERY fight is like that and you want to remember them all. Looking at you Mist Dragon. I've yet to dodge the spread line mechanic.
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Apr 4, 2019 19:14
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You mean the flares?
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Apr 4, 2019 19:23
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SwissArmyDruid posted:I mean, Excogitation is like, 50% of Lifebloom? i roll lifeblooms like i roll joints: constantly
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Apr 4, 2019 19:29
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:But this isn't true because you can just make a macro to mash with all of your cooldowns and on-use items. ????
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Apr 4, 2019 19:30
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I would say WoW is "harder" than FFXIV at the highest levels, but there is also this strange assumption that "hard=better" for some reason among those raiders. Mythic G'huun was just a convoluted mess that was hard for the sake of hard. FFXIV has fights that are challenging, but not at the expense of actually enjoying and having fun with them. I haven't done UWU yet, but stuff like SeiryuEX is just a blast to play through, with a good balance of difficulty, timing, precision, and fun. A lot of it comes down to playerbases, too, though. I was one of my server's main progression raiders in WoW, and it was just an unenjoyable experience. Finding a static group was a wall of elitism, Raider.IO scores, ragequits, and instability. I'm sure some of that exists in FFXIV statics but people seem a lot more open to learning groups, enjoying the experience, and working their way through fights together. That overall atmosphere can really make a difference on the perception of difficulty, in my experience.
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Apr 4, 2019 19:39
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Veotax posted:Apparently using the backup tool can transfer macros Thanks! I hope I can do that without messing up my ps4 ui.
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Apr 4, 2019 19:42
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Ibram Gaunt posted:???? Because WoW doesn't animation lock you, you can just make a macro for stuff like trinkets or ability oGCD stuff that you can hit to just activate all of them at once. Or hell, you can make a macro to tie them to your other abilities if you're ok with constantly getting the "I can't do that yet" message when you hit the button.
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Apr 4, 2019 19:44
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IcePhoenix posted:Because WoW doesn't animation lock you, you can just make a macro for stuff like trinkets or ability oGCD stuff that you can hit to just activate all of them at once. Or hell, you can make a macro to tie them to your other abilities if you're ok with constantly getting the "I can't do that yet" message when you hit the button. very little is off GCD with the latest expansion. i guess this exact thing is why they put a bunch of stuff back on the GCD, as to discourage simply macroing everything to all activate with one button press. you can still macro stuff together, but you'll have to press the button multiple times. honestly i don't really know why that's better. it doesn't really increase complexity so much as makes things feel like they sluggishly take longer to activate. by the time you finally start attacking your on-use trinket could be 20% over.
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Apr 4, 2019 19:50
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IcePhoenix posted:Because WoW doesn't animation lock you, you can just make a macro for stuff like trinkets or ability oGCD stuff that you can hit to just activate all of them at once. Or hell, you can make a macro to tie them to your other abilities if you're ok with constantly getting the "I can't do that yet" message when you hit the button. You can turn off the error message. I used to macro everything to lightning bolt and just hold down the key with an autohotkey script.
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Apr 4, 2019 19:53
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Is there a consensus on Teamcraft vs. Crafting as a Service? They both seem roughly equivalent as a low level crafter and I'm not sure which one I want to sink a bunch of time into setting up as my crafting becomes harder to track.
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Apr 4, 2019 20:16
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Adus posted:honestly i don't really know why that's better. this sums up basically all of blizzard's decisions in bfa. the answer is that it's not better, but blizzard refuses to ever admit they were wrong, and will make any vast number of excuses to basically tell the playerbase to deal with it.
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Apr 4, 2019 20:24
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Impermanent posted:Is there a consensus on Teamcraft vs. Crafting as a Service? They both seem roughly equivalent as a low level crafter and I'm not sure which one I want to sink a bunch of time into setting up as my crafting becomes harder to track. I use Garland tools and Teamcraft. Garland I find is way better for searching stuff and tracking node spawns but Teamcraft is better for breaking down multi-item batch projects that start to involves 50+ different crafts and has a solid rotation simulator for playing with material melds.
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Apr 4, 2019 20:27
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I have no idea how wow's tippy top difficulty compares to ffxiv's in terms of quality or quality, but wow has a pretty successful history of midcore content that just feels either absent or in very short supply depending on the patch in ffxiv and I wish SE would try their hand at that. Preferably in a small group stage but I know that concept has been pretty thoroughly ignored by SE barring the very weird deep dungeon
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Apr 4, 2019 20:47
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I miss the scale of big WoW raids where it actually feels like you're going into an actual place and exploring it and punching everything that lives there in the face to take their stuff. For all its visual fidelity XIV never manages to capture that feel, not even in the 24 mans. And those don't rise to the heroic raiding difficulty I want anyway. I still need to do Baldesion Arsenal but no clue on how to get a group for that. I'm assuming there's a discord somewhere.
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Apr 4, 2019 20:51
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I've definitely heard people who love BA talk about the sense of scale and place as something that is missing from ffxiv raiding, yeah
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Apr 4, 2019 20:54
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BA is really cool and unlike anything else in the game in terms of the feeling of exploring a big castle, but it's definitely not packed full of difficulty. EX Primals are still a pretty chunky step above anything the bosses within throw at you, with the main risk being how one caveman that doesn't know his left from his right can still murder everybody just like on 24-man Ozma.Eimi posted:I still need to do Baldesion Arsenal but no clue on how to get a group for that. I'm assuming there's a discord somewhere. https://discord.gg/Fu7eku if you're on Primal.
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Apr 4, 2019 20:59
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Countblanc posted:I have no idea how wow's tippy top difficulty compares to ffxiv's in terms of quality or quality, but wow has a pretty successful history of midcore content that just feels either absent or in very short supply depending on the patch in ffxiv and I wish SE would try their hand at that. Preferably in a small group stage but I know that concept has been pretty thoroughly ignored by SE barring the very weird deep dungeon If you're going to draw parallel lines between where the games were in their lifespans, FFXIV's Savage Omega fights are noticeably simpler than Heroic Icecrown, but their DPS requirements are slightly harder (otherwise, they'd have to take away your battle rez spam). I only did a couple weeks of attempted progression on UCOB but its execution difficulty felt comparable to the harder Icecrown fights, but it's much longer. It's as though Heroic Putricide and Heroic Arthas were one long-rear end fight - I guess that's basically what it is, in fact. It's heavily offset by the fact that you would install an addon to go "Ugh!" and print out what to do on your screen in block letters. Bleu fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Apr 4, 2019 |
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Apr 4, 2019 21:08
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Eimi posted:I miss the scale of big WoW raids where it actually feels like you're going into an actual place and exploring it and punching everything that lives there in the face to take their stuff. For all its visual fidelity XIV never manages to capture that feel, not even in the 24 mans. And those don't rise to the heroic raiding difficulty I want anyway. I do miss the near-seamless world that WoW was able to make. I put up with zone transitions in FFXIV as a matter of how the game had to be designed but it does remove some of that functioning world feel. I do not miss having to travel to the dungeon to do it, especially with how long in vanilla WoW you'd go without a mount. One thing I do appreciate with FFXIV is how they've managed to make their dungeons visually distinct and interesting, despite them being straight lines, for the most part. Two rooms with a pack of mobs each, connected by a hallway, followed by a boss. Repeat twice. It's a good formula for the way the game and the playerbase work, but what they did with places like The Burn and the Ghimlyt Dark allow for at least some neat looking setpieces. Like, I love the original Qarn for its stone puzzles and hidden vaults. It's a cool idea, but it doesn't work in the current meta of tomes-per-hour gameplay. Also, the loot is garbage but that can't be helped at that level, I suppose.
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Apr 4, 2019 21:13
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Rainuwastaken posted:BA is really cool and unlike anything else in the game in terms of the feeling of exploring a big castle, but it's definitely not packed full of difficulty. EX Primals are still a pretty chunky step above anything the bosses within throw at you, with the main risk being how one caveman that doesn't know his left from his right can still murder everybody just like on 24-man Ozma. Ah thank you. Sadly I'm on Aether as I play on Balmung.
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Apr 4, 2019 21:16
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i never really got into wow but one thing i wish ffxiv would crib from older mmos like daoc is more indoor/dungeon-y world areas with progressively harder mobs. everything is so out in the open and very flat difficulty-wise. i feel like the only place that gives me that same feel is that crypt area in the Lochs but without the scaling mobs
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Apr 4, 2019 21:43
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drat, so diving into crafting log completion, I'm realizing the worst part is shards. Are the only good ways of getting shards via retainers and gardening?
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Apr 4, 2019 21:47
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They can be gathered but that's mind numbing even with upgraded wards.
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Apr 4, 2019 21:53
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DontMindMe posted:drat, so diving into crafting log completion, I'm realizing the worst part is shards. Yep. It's a minor issue that they've never really bothered to address due to how limited the uses for shards are (mostly leveling stuff, some materials used in high-end crafts, and a few glamour-worthy crafts).
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Apr 4, 2019 21:55
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aetherial reduction gives shards/crystals/clusters i think
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Apr 4, 2019 21:57
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