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Just getting ready to start submitting a novel manuscript for the first time, and have a question regarding page count/word count I was hoping the thread might be able to help me with: When an agent asks for the first five pages of a manuscript copy-pasted into an email below your query letter, roughly how many words are they expecting? And should the 'five pages' be in general email formatting?
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Apr 4, 2019 06:35
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Rough page count in a book is usually 250-300 words per page. Or, set up your word document like a manuscript (12 point Courier, double-spaced) and copy the first five pages. I would format it like a forums post, i.e., double space between paragraphs and no indents. That's just preference for me, though.
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Apr 4, 2019 08:23
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Screaming Idiot posted:I have a weird request, one that probably isn't a good fit for this thread, but how would I go about coming up with asetting for D&D? And are there any resources for creating adventures? I had an idea of one campaign that takes place inside a mountain-sized mechanical golem that was housing the spirit of a fallen god of war and industry, and inside the golem are small towns and villages and fortresses and foundries filled with either slaves and unwitting innocents or zealouts and mercenaries, all working to maintaining the golem as it walks across the breadth of the land to its destination; a giant volcano that it would ascend and plunge itself into, using the sacrifice of the souls of its occupants to regain his godhood and plunge the world into endless conflict. I guess you just did
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Apr 4, 2019 08:33
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I meant for, like, worldbuilding. Not to print copies of and rub in folk's faces to show off how ~CREATIVE~ I am, but so the adventures I draw from it are more cohesive. I could also use the advice for my non-gaming works, too. Something to keep the books I write in a shared setting more comprehensible and in line with one another, like a series bible. I know the average person doesn't read a book and exclaim "THE CITY OF UMRIEL IS LANDLOCKED IT'S NOT BY THE GOLSPAR OCEAN AAAAAA" but a bible will help me stay consistent.
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Apr 4, 2019 14:18
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Screaming Idiot posted:I meant for, like, worldbuilding. Not to print copies of and rub in folk's faces to show off how ~CREATIVE~ I am, but so the adventures I draw from it are more cohesive. Alternatively, there's dozens of free wiki/project management bits of software you can use for building setting. Trello would be weirdly useful if you're making a world that has characters you want to keep track of if the players have killed them or not.
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Apr 4, 2019 14:27
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I'm tasked to write a 15 page essay comparing and contrasting two works of fiction (I picked animal farm and the metamorphosis)....yet i never did 15 pages before. For many years, I've almost always wrote essays at the maximum of 2 pages, three if i'm lucky. Never had I even wrote a essay at this length. It's almost comparable to long short story too!
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Apr 4, 2019 14:31
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Fruity20 posted:I'm tasked to write a 15 page essay comparing and contrasting two works of fiction (I picked animal farm and the metamorphosis)....yet i never did 15 pages before. For many years, I've almost always wrote essays at the maximum of 2 pages, three if i'm lucky. Never had I even wrote a essay at this length. It's almost comparable to long short story too! I guess I’ve always leaned to the verbose so maybe just crank it out and don’t restrain yourself, then revise? Outline and stuff first if that helps you but there should be plenty of material to work with.
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Apr 4, 2019 15:04
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Screaming Idiot posted:I meant for, like, worldbuilding. Not to print copies of and rub in folk's faces to show off how ~CREATIVE~ I am, but so the adventures I draw from it are more cohesive. A world building site called World Anvil came across my desk recently. I've haven't looked into it beyond reading the landing page, but it might help you out. Fruity20 posted:I'm tasked to write a 15 page essay comparing and contrasting two works of fiction (I picked animal farm and the metamorphosis)....yet i never did 15 pages before. For many years, I've almost always wrote essays at the maximum of 2 pages, three if i'm lucky. Never had I even wrote a essay at this length. It's almost comparable to long short story too! It's geared more towards scientific research, but 40 Paragraphs might give you some ideas on how to structure a lengthier work.
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Apr 4, 2019 16:14
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Fashionable Jorts posted:How much of a dick move to the readers is it to introduce a new POV character, have them running a side story for a little bit, then kill them and their entire group of supporting characters? Should I strive to directly connect them to the main characters in some way? I mostly want to use them for worldbuilding and establishing the threat, without needing to find some contrived way of jamming the main characters into that area. Sounds sketchy to me. You say "introduce", that implies that these side characters come out of nowhere. Introducing a bunch of characters largely to spew out some world-building stuff that is otherwise not connected to the main plot doesn't sound like a good idea. 1. Do these side characters have any relation to the main characters? 2. Does the deaths of these side characters tie directly into the main story? If the answers to both those questions are "no", then the audience might feel that they wasted their time getting invested into those characters. 3. If the world-building these characters provide is not related to the main plot, why do you need it in? 4. It sounds like the information about how great the threat is is only being conveyed to the reader, not to the main characters. Why not? 5. If the main characters got word about the threat or the deaths of these characters, would this have an emotional impact on them? 6. Do these side characters die as a result of their own agency, a consequence of their own choices? Stabbey_the_Clown fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Apr 4, 2019 |
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Apr 4, 2019 21:53
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Sounds sketchy to me. You say "introduce", that implies that these side characters come out of nowhere. Introducing a bunch of characters largely to spew out some world-building stuff that is otherwise not connected to the main plot doesn't sound like a good idea. I mean introduce as in they get just as much time and energy dedicated to their plot lines as any of the other main plot threads happening, just the climax of their story is death. I would say not really to question 1 (not directly at least, they have the same goals), and yes to #2. #3 comes down to wanting to set up a different area in the story (space), which the 'main' character will eventually reach, but it will be some time. So when she does, the plot won't drag to a stop as I need to explain how terrible being in space is, the readers will already be familiar with the setting from the now-dead character. For 4+5+6, it comes down to these people die because they want to try and stop the Bad Thing from happening, then the main cast comes across their bodies which changes their perspective on just how bad the Bad Thing really is. What they thought was a smart plan may no longer be, and will radically shift their next steps. Fashionable Jorts fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Apr 4, 2019 |
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Apr 4, 2019 22:33
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Fashionable Jorts posted:I mean introduce as in they get just as much time and energy dedicated to their plot lines as any of the other main plot threads happening, just the climax of their story is death. I would say not really to question 1 (not directly at least, they have the same goals), and yes to #2. What's so special about space in this setting that it takes 1/3 of your story to explain why being in space is bad? More to the point, why can't the relevant information about the terrible secret of space be sprinkled casually throughout the other two stories in bits and pieces so that the readers already have some of the context by the time space becomes relevant to the main plot? quote:For 4+5+6, it comes down to these people die because they want to try and stop the Bad Thing from happening, then the main cast comes across their bodies which changes their perspective on just how bad the Bad Thing really is. What they thought was a smart plan may no longer be, and will radically shift their next steps. Hmmm... I guess there's something about the way those people die that makes it impossible for the actual main characters to be there in person to watch the event that kills them? Actually being there in person and watching them die and seeing right then how bad their plan is sounds like it would have a much greater emotional impact on the main characters than finding their bodies afterwards would. Showing the side characters executing a plan that fatally fails, then the main characters finding their bodies and realizing that their own, similar plan will fail is redundant information to the reader. You're telling them the same thing twice. The rule for plans characters make is that any plan we see the characters make has to go wrong somehow. If we know what the plan is, and it goes perfectly well, that is boring. So any reader which sees a plan being made is going to know somewhere in their head that it won't go perfectly.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:01
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:What's so special about space in this setting that it takes 1/3 of your story to explain why being in space is bad? More to the point, why can't the relevant information about the terrible secret of space be sprinkled casually throughout the other two stories in bits and pieces so that the readers already have some of the context by the time space becomes relevant to the main plot? That could be feasible, I just like the idea of someone just living their life in space so I don't need to sprinkle it in. That the reader gets the full picture just by me explaining the struggles they have to go through with regular day-to-day life. Hopefully it would accomplish a world that feels more lived-in than if the characters are occasionally told things. Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Hmmm... I guess there's something about the way those people die that makes it impossible for the actual main characters to be there in person to watch the event that kills them? Actually being there in person and watching them die and seeing right then how bad their plan is sounds like it would have a much greater emotional impact on the main characters than finding their bodies afterwards would. I was thinking of that, having the main cast show up, and then having the side characters die off, but I'm worried it would feel like I'm just saying "Get out of the way chumps, the real heroes are here" and chucking those characters in a bin. Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Showing the side characters executing a plan that fatally fails, then the main characters finding their bodies and realizing that their own, similar plan will fail is redundant information to the reader. You're telling them the same thing twice. Thats a good point. Thanks for the tips, I'll have to think this one over. Perhaps I'll work in a way to weave the plots together more, so the two groups kind of join and separate a few times before meeting their end, making it a much more meaningful event for the main characters.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:39
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Having the side characters die is establishing the stakes to the reader, which creates dramatic irony when the main characters don't know the stakes. Having the main characters find the side characters allows them to have character development as they realize the stakes. What you don't want to do is to re-explain the stakes to the reader. You could skip straight from "oh god, that's Jeff" to "well what are we going to do now that we know the zombies are also dragons". e: Also, importantly for the tone of your story, if there's a group of characters who are as important to the story as the others, but who all die, you're establishing in a meta sense to the reader that anyone can die, no matter how important to the story they are. This increases the sense of tension because now "the main characters live" is no longer assured, because you just killed off a third of them. Djeser fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Apr 5, 2019 |
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Apr 5, 2019 00:13
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Fashionable Jorts posted:That could be feasible, I just like the idea of someone just living their life in space so I don't need to sprinkle it in. That the reader gets the full picture just by me explaining the struggles they have to go through with regular day-to-day life. Hopefully it would accomplish a world that feels more lived-in than if the characters are occasionally told things. From the sound of it, your main character(s) won't have gone to space and won't understand what day-to-day life in space is like. Being in space will be a totally new experience for them. If you're using Group C to show what life in space is like, does that mean you won't be showing the main characters the new experience of being surprised and adjusting to life in space? I can understand not wanting to slow the pace, but if the main characters don't understand what life in space is like, it should have an impact on how well they can perform in space. Just skipping over their inexperience won't feel authentic. quote:I was thinking of that, having the main cast show up, and then having the side characters die off, but I'm worried it would feel like I'm just saying "Get out of the way chumps, the real heroes are here" and chucking those characters in a bin. You mean that's not what you're intending? Because to me, that's exactly how it's coming across in your description. A whole bunch of Crewman Number 6 whose main purpose is to die to show how serious the situation is. quote:Thats a good point. Thanks for the tips, I'll have to think this one over. Perhaps I'll work in a way to weave the plots together more, so the two groups kind of join and separate a few times before meeting their end, making it a much more meaningful event for the main characters. That does sound like a good idea.
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Apr 5, 2019 00:36
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Djeser posted:This increases the sense of tension because now "the main characters live" is no longer assured, because you just killed off a third of them. This is also a goal that I want to achieve - the reader should be slightly unsure of who, if any, will make it out of this alive.
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Apr 5, 2019 07:58
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Is it okay to take an established mythical being and add your own spin on it? like how my vampires are apparently living rather than dead?
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Apr 5, 2019 14:36
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Fruity20 posted:Is it okay to take an established mythical being and add your own spin on it? like how my vampires are apparently living rather than dead? Yeah do what you want
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Apr 5, 2019 14:54
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No it is against the law
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Apr 5, 2019 15:02
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Fruity20 posted:Is it okay to take an established mythical being and add your own spin on it? like how my vampires are apparently living rather than dead?
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Apr 5, 2019 15:17
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Invent a new species of vampire bats who turn into old British people during the full moon and at teatime.
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Apr 5, 2019 18:52
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feedmyleg posted:No it is against the law
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Apr 5, 2019 19:59
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SelenicMartian posted:Invent a new species of vampire bats who turn into old British people during the full moon and at teatime. And they drink tea instead of blood. And they are very polite and won’t come in if not invited. ... Hold on this is actually good.
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Apr 6, 2019 01:06
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It is not okay and actually why the Greeks were eventually conquered by the Romans is because they used sphinxes without getting permission from Egypt and then Cleopatra slapped them with a trademark lawsuit.
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Apr 6, 2019 03:29
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Fruity20 posted:Is it okay to take an established mythical being and add your own spin on it? like how my vampires are apparently living rather than dead? Only if they sparkle in sunlight and play lightspeed baseball watched by a lobotomized protagonist.
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Apr 6, 2019 04:04
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AND THEY BETTER BE loving MORMON OR I SWEAR TO JOSEPH SMITH
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Apr 6, 2019 04:05
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Related to 'can I introduce POV characters just to kill them'. I've been meaning to write a hard sci-fi book for some time and I kind of like the idea of following a non-human character like an AI that inhabits a cube or some other mcguffin that needs to do a thing for a reason or other. Then the story becomes the cube interacting with somebody who picks it up, getting them to help it along and ultimately the chapter ends with whoever helped it either dying or quitting or something. Then there is an unspecified amount of time before the next person picks up the cube. So the main character continues from chapter to chapter but the supporting cast constantly rotates in and out. Typing it out it sounds more sci-fantasy than sci-fi and I can easily see having things like 'character arcs' being problematic with that narrative structure, but I like the idea. Anybody else see any immediate glaring problems or solutions that might help? Agent355 fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Apr 6, 2019 |
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Apr 6, 2019 06:05
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It sounds like a fine structural premise for a story. Depending on how much agency this thing has, people may be more or less inclined to treat it as a main character versus a particularly fancy plot device. One thing I'd keep in mind is that the details of each transition may not be terribly important to the reader; if you've established that a chapter break is where a new character can come in, you can skip the boring introductory bits and just jump to the good part. (I mean, you should be skipping the boring bits and getting to the good part in any story, but still.)
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Apr 6, 2019 09:47
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Sounds a bit like The Littlest Hobo and for that reason I dig it.
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Apr 8, 2019 01:54
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Screaming Idiot posted:Only if they sparkle in sunlight and play lightspeed baseball watched by a lobotomized protagonist. Screaming Idiot posted:AND THEY BETTER BE loving MORMON OR I SWEAR TO JOSEPH SMITH This is freaking sarcasm isn't it but to answer your question, no. my vampires do not sparkle in the sun... save for a certain strain of vampire. they can tolerate it for some time until they start getting rashes and burns and have to go back into the shadows. more darker skin vampires have a higher sun tolerance than light skin ones..unsurprisingly. really, there is a lot of ways to kill my vampires depending on the strain like concentrated UV bombs, stakes to the heart, drowning them, rocket launchers that shoot UV missiles...and other over the top poo poo. this is gonna be a cheesy as heck story. then again it's suppose to ape the Saturday morning 90s cartoon feel. like with the premise of a bunch of monster teens and a 30 year old woman punching rich business man in the face while hunting all sorts of monsters is a crazy premise if executed right.
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Apr 8, 2019 13:40
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thats it im calling the police
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Apr 8, 2019 13:44
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To be serious for a second: messing with mythical creatures to make them more realistic is like Urban Fantasy 101. "This so-called 'monster' was just a separate strain of humanity misunderstood by medieval people, and the tale grew in the telling, but they're actually no more or less evil than anyone else" is the premise for so many stories it would make your head spin.
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Apr 8, 2019 16:25
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Mirage posted:To be serious for a second: messing with mythical creatures to make them more realistic is like Urban Fantasy 101. "This so-called 'monster' was just a separate strain of humanity misunderstood by medieval people, and the tale grew in the telling, but they're actually no more or less evil than anyone else" is the premise for so many stories it would make your head spin. So I ain't original for it? jokes aside, yea I'm super guilty of this but it's more due to the fact I'm kinda hate the trope of making every member of a species as evil. I find it nonsensical quite frankly unless you were some form of construct.
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Apr 8, 2019 17:36
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okay but fruit bat vampire when
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Apr 9, 2019 06:19
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Fruit bats are Yinpterochiroptera and vampire bats are Yangochiroptera! They're entirely different suborders!! It's like saying a werewolf should also be able to turn into a skunk and a walrus!!!!!
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Apr 9, 2019 08:25
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Why hasn't anyone written that yet it sounds loving rad!!!!!!!
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Apr 9, 2019 08:41
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I’m pretty sure a lot of things die from being staked in the heart, actually.
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Apr 9, 2019 12:22
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Doctor Zero posted:I’m pretty sure a lot of things die from being staked in the heart, actually. e.g: heart
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Apr 9, 2019 12:44
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Werewalrus ™️©️
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Apr 9, 2019 13:33
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Doctor Zero posted:I’m pretty sure a lot of things die from being staked in the heart, actually. Sunlight, garlic, running water, crosses. When you think about it, vampires have more weaknesses than mortals do.
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Apr 9, 2019 13:39
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Djeser posted:a werewolf should also be able to turn into a skunk and a walrus!!!!! Cannot wait for this urban fantasy
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Apr 9, 2019 15:01
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