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Jonas Albrecht posted:Gifts are weird and I don't blame anyone for hating them. They feel tacked on in a way that Disciplines didn't, even with Werewolf's laser focus on spirituality. My dislike of them has softened over 2 decades, but I still wish WtF had just killed the concept entirely. I actually kind of like the concept in WtF because it gives another way to express the whole split-between-worlds thing, I just hate the implementation. Their scope is pretty manageable, it's mostly that it takes so much XP to have and be passable at them and also get a lot of the semi-required stuff like rites and Primal Urge.
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Apr 6, 2019 01:59
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I am so sad that this isn't a real Nature in VtM20th. Maybe it was a homebrew.quote:Mastermind
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Apr 6, 2019 03:14
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Ironslave posted:More stink = more power I've got a chest cold that's been cycling into fever and then breaking over and over again, so that I keep getting fresh resurgences of the post-fever sweatfest. I can confirm this is 100% correct, and that I am extremely powerful right now, judging by how my housemates are too weak and cowardly to enter my Stink Radius.
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Apr 6, 2019 03:38
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This is wildly off-topic and sort of Mage chat, but: I just read Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud, which I've been meaning to do forever, and I kept thinking 'this guy's an Acanthus' - and I'd previously decided that famed proto-impressionist Turner was an Obrimos for dissolving his physical depictions into pure light and form (plus the guy's self-portrait looks Obrimos-y). So I have a concept for an art-themed NPC cabal with themed Shadow Names in the Free Council, and I'd love suggestions for other artist/Path combinations.
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Apr 6, 2019 06:29
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Joe Slowboat posted:This is wildly off-topic and sort of Mage chat, but:
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Apr 6, 2019 06:56
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Xander77 posted:There was an old (like early 2000's) World of Darkness RP comic (as in, we are first introduced to a bunch of players and then mostly follow their in-game adventures), which I thought was a pretty good intro to how the world works.
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Apr 6, 2019 07:19
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Joe Slowboat posted:This is wildly off-topic and sort of Mage chat, but:
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Apr 6, 2019 07:26
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Warhol's their Sleepwalker retainer who passes off their works as his miracles to their Mystery Cult.
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Apr 6, 2019 07:37
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Mendrian posted:"Escher is a Mastigos" might be too on the nose but my knowledge of current art is pretty meh. Hmm, distorted space and perceptions? I think a lot of artists might be Mastigos, guys - Dali and Picasso spring to mind immediately. Go google "Art Brut" and pick any artist you like for Thyrsus. Moros? Edward Gory.
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Apr 6, 2019 12:29
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01011001 posted:I actually kind of like the concept in WtF because it gives another way to express the whole split-between-worlds thing, I just hate the implementation. Their scope is pretty manageable, it's mostly that it takes so much XP to have and be passable at them and also get a lot of the semi-required stuff like rites and Primal Urge. Since they kept Renown, I wish they had made it a resource stat like Rage or Gnosis. Let me have a Perminant Purity and Glory but also let them generate a pool to spend on new Gifts.
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Apr 6, 2019 12:51
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Taciturn Tactician posted:Uhh, the OP seems to be pretty far out of date, so I figure I'd just post to ask. What's the current state of "where to begin" for Vampire? I liked Bloodlines a lot and I've read a ton of old vampire rules and fluff from like, wikis and ancient geocites pages, but I'm not really sure whether I should be looking to get 20th anniversary, 5th edition, the nWoD onyx path stuff (Chronicles of Darkness? Requiem?) or should just to dig up 3e oWod or something. Coming back to this post. If you derive a lot of enjoyment out of finding out more about the stuff glimpsed in Bloodlines and want to play with stuff from old geocities lore and used Masquerade books: Get V20. It's a giant fuckoff corebook with as much of those extra character options and lost Disciplines included as possible. As a nostalgia-focused book, it's still largely subject to the old quirks of the Vampire legacy rules, though it smooths out some of the edges. If you want to dive into the preexisting setting you experienced in Bloodlines, but feel intimidated by cracking open a huge fuckoff book written for long-time fans who've played Vampire before: Get an old copy, or a new electronic copy, of Vampire: the Masquerade: Revised Edition. It's the book that served as the foundation for Bloodlines itself. Obviously, this book is also subject to the old-time mechanical quirks of the system. If you want a game that keeps up with what's probably going to be in the upcoming Bloodlines sequel and what's going on there: Maybe get Vampire: the Masquerade: Fifth Edition? There's shakiness behind its genesis and the creative direction is changing, but it's probably still influential for what Paradox is doing with the new Bloodlines game. Its rules go in a new direction that put a spotlight on how vampires choose to use the blood and what hunger does to them (rather than expending blood, you risk rousing your hunger), but everything familiar is still there: Humanity, Disciplines, the clans of the Camarilla and the Anarchs. I wouldn't feel comfortable even listing this one if the creative direction weren't already being turned over, honestly. If you want a game that hits the same narrative notes as Bloodlines of chaotic clashes that result from the machinations of opposing factions, but is a bit less ready-made and a bit more flexible in its setting power structures: Get Vampire: the Requiem Second Edition. You don't need the Chronicles of Darkness or any other rulebook; the 1e VTR book required an nWoD core, but 2e is self-contained. This is my personal preference and the one I know the most about. You don't get quite the same clans or factions, but clan and faction aren't intertwined the way they are in Masquerade, there are more factions to squabble and form alliances with and against each other, and the Discipline rules are pretty evenly useful and interesting. Its rules add a bit more emphasis to the ties of support that relate you to the living world, and some narrative cues to set up genre conflicts. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Apr 6, 2019 |
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Apr 6, 2019 17:06
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Digital Osmosis posted:I don't think the other splats have political themes as coherent, well developed, and tied to the metaphysics / lore as nMage does. I've heard exciting things about Geist 2E on that front, but don't know how far along it is and don't have access to the kickstarter documents. The thing that is true in both Changeling and Mage is that the structure of their character social groupings as a player-facing dynamic- creating the Wizard-class order/court and Fighter-class order/court- creates this wild discordance between what the social structure actually has as its guiding philosophy versus what character benefits and alibis to "do Thief/Cleric stuff" says about the group structurally. What Changeling doesn't do is say that their fully-dedicated army full of fighters dedicated to the war is a platonic, self-aware, philosophically valid mystery cult. They're broken people that are attempting to pick up the pieces, and you will have some members that are full of wrath that don't do the army part and people who do army stuff that aren't full of wrath. The apparent flaws are built into the setting, rather than being the objects of discourse about what the Adamantine Arrow should or shouldn't fight as part of their world-wide struggle against the exarchs. The writers struggle with this because its basically impossible to write as characters with all their mental attributes set to perfect and moral that don't immediately see some of the flaws in their thoughts. In 2E CtL, the courts are better tied using mechanics that actually state that the written Courts creates a restriction on the True Fae and their minions as to how they interact- and that the court's restriction is tied into what the court is supposed to be 'good' at. But even there, some of the restrictions are better suited to the 'class' element (Summer means they can't run away) and some are better suited to the 'emotion' element (Winter means they have to 'mourn' after their successes). You can both acknowledge that its really tough to thread the needle to please every aspect of a gameline AND accept that, perhaps just maybe, the courts aren't perfect and your players might have a better idea on how to run things.
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Apr 6, 2019 20:53
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People should p l ay more Wraith.
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Apr 6, 2019 23:51
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Lord_Hambrose posted:People should p l ay more Wraith. Wr20 is excellent. The Isle of Stygia shaped like a scythe's head? 
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Apr 7, 2019 00:54
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Dawgstar posted:Wr20 is excellent. The Isle of Stygia shaped like a scythe's head? Weirdly, of everything I've heart of Wraith, this is the piece that makes me want to pick it up the most.
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Apr 7, 2019 01:01
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Digital Osmosis posted:I don't think the other splats have political themes as coherent, well developed, and tied to the metaphysics / lore as nMage does. Demon tho
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Apr 7, 2019 01:18
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Basic Chunnel posted:Demon tho Geist moreso than all of them I think, since the horror in that is the Underworld and its systems, the sheer enormity of them, and the amount of suffering it produces every second. It's explicitly a metaphor for systemic oppression, and unlike... pretty much all the other lines has the heart to say that overcoming it all is definitely possible.
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Apr 7, 2019 01:24
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Basic Chunnel posted:Demon tho Demon... isn't really political? The God-Machine isn't a political entity, it doesn't map to actual human politics, like the Seers do. It has political implications, but it's not about that. Similarly, being a Demon isn't like being a political activist or theorist. Demon's about being a spy whose home country is the theoretical Hell you try to find, as opposed to the sterile heaven of the God-Machine, your origin. E: Geist is political but it's very, very metaphorical. There's no real analogical connections between the Underworld and the systems of oppression that exist in the world, and there's not really any attempt at that, which is fine! But Mage directly casts the Seers as functioning through real modes of oppression. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Apr 7, 2019 |
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Apr 7, 2019 01:25
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Joe Slowboat posted:Demon... isn't really political? “Unless the Dark Lords are literally named Rockefeller and Morgan I can’t see how you could possibly connect them to capitalism.” You understand by this measure Sauron has absolutely nothing to do with the 1st world war yes? This is like... I was taught to be better at understanding metaphor better in elementary school. That isn’t meant to be an insult, I just don’t understand how you could be lacking so many mental tools for interpreting the world? ...like the god machine is literally a gigantic world spanning machine that uses people as spare parts and is unable to factor human well-being into its quest to make more metaphysical industrial equipment. How can you possibly interpret that as apolitical?
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Apr 7, 2019 01:40
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Joe Slowboat posted:The God-Machine isn't a political entity, I can’t even begin to understand what this means in the context of your interpretation of media. I think we are at a complete disconnect.
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Apr 7, 2019 01:43
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Picture me hangin out the side of a helicopter throwing copies of Discipline and Punish at the heads of all these jawns
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Apr 7, 2019 01:43
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Vampire is "political" in the sense that it invites methodological disagreements that are fundamentally opposed and yet allied by virtue of everyone being a monster. Like the Invictus and the Carthian positions are always going to be opposed, and within the Invictus, guilds will be opposed and within a guild, students will be opposed. Vampire is "political" the same way that office drama is "political"; it's rooted in interpersonal conflict with idealogical trappings. It doesn't really have a lot of subtext; Carthians are the not-Invictus, not "the good ones" or a standin for personal freedom. Mage has better subtext but it takes more work to create that interpersonal drama.
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Apr 7, 2019 01:44
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But tbh the view of the way of the world as a system or system of systems that is composed of people but is also, in a greater sense, outside of them is actually a more sophisticated conception than an actual star chamber conspiracy of secret rulers. There are no drivers, it is a self driving car. Some people get to ride shotgun and some people get rolled under the wheels, that’s all
Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Apr 7, 2019 |
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Apr 7, 2019 01:46
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Joe Slowboat posted:Demon... isn't really political? I wouldn't say the God-Machine isn't a political entity--after all, its presence and the way it operates is the basis for a game with plenty of Cold War Great Game espionage trappings--but its inscrutable nature and choose-your-own motivations make it the kind of thing which can play the role of entirely distant and unrelated to the causer of the War On Drugs in order to obtain certain sweet sweet metals found via the gun trade or something. I see what you mean on Geist. It's got some very obvious political metaphors, and assumes the players will interact with them more than most other lines (the subtitle is outright the name of the guys working to make things better), but you're not likely to find the part of the Underworld that directly lines up to the Westboro Baptist Church like you would with a Ministry of the Unity. Which would probably just be the Westboro Baptist Church.
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Apr 7, 2019 01:50
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Demon is a better metaphor for living as a revolutionary in a world that is created, at a semiotic level, by cops
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Apr 7, 2019 01:50
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Basic Chunnel posted:But tbh the view of the way of the world as a system or system of systems that is composed of people but is also, in a greater sense, outside of them is actually a more sophisticated conception than an actual star chamber conspiracy of secret rulers. There are no drivers, it is a self driving car. Some people get to ride shotgun and some people get rolled under the wheels, that’s all ... I understand that, I’m saying that a gigantic out-of-control machine that cares not for human life and has no leadership or purpose is how socialists view capitalism.
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Apr 7, 2019 01:51
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Ironslave posted:I wouldn't say the God-Machine isn't a political entity--after all, its presence and the way it operates is the basis for a game with plenty of Cold War Great Game espionage trappings--but its inscrutable nature and choose-your-own motivations make it the kind of thing which can play the role of entirely distant and unrelated to the causer of the War On Drugs in order to obtain certain sweet sweet metals found via the gun trade or something. The customizable nature of the machine does mean it can be used to represent different ideas certainly. I’m just confused by the implication of the poster you were responding to that the god machine “isn’t a political entity, doesn’t map to human politics, and that it has political implications but is not “about” them.” Also by the idea that there is “no real analogical connections between the underworld and real systems of oppression.”
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Apr 7, 2019 01:56
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My point is not that Demon and Geist are not functional political metaphors, it's that they're not analogies. I even said that, or thought I did. The point is that the articulation of the analogy in Mage creates more space for specific interpretations. Let's look at the example of Sauron: Sauron as a broad metaphor for the industrial powers of WWI does not allow you to comment on and get in internet fights over his relationship with Archduke Ferdinand, or whether Sauron could send Lenin to collapse the Shire (or whether we should read the end of the Return of the King in that way with Saruman as Lenin - you could! But, uh, why.). The God-Machine is not within the setting a political entity like the Seers, i.e. a political organization with an ideology. That's sort of the point of it. It's capitalism-as-fact-of-nature, the crushing wheel of the system of the world. E: What I mean is, they're metaphors, not analogies. They are not closely articulated, the way Mage's is. This means Mage is easier to get into the weeds with, while the others have clear overarching political claims. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Apr 7, 2019 |
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Apr 7, 2019 01:59
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The God Machine is impossibly complex but it has an immediately discernible purpose - to perpetuate and defend its own existence without regard to the material consequences of those ends. It is, in other words, the global marketplace
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Apr 7, 2019 02:00
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Like, my point was never 'the God-Machine isn't capitalism' or, Oracles forbid, 'how dare you put politics in these Totally Apolitical Games' it's that mage, by tracking more closely with the actual operation of politics in the world we live in, produces a lot more lacunae and hard feelings when it's discussed. Maybe I wasn't clear enough!
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Apr 7, 2019 02:10
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Joe Slowboat posted:My point is not that Demon and Geist are not functional political metaphors, it's that they're not analogies. This is true. I don’t think what you wrote communicated it well I guess? To me at least it seemed as if you were saying a bunch of very different things.
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Apr 7, 2019 02:16
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jakodee posted:This is true. I don’t think what you wrote communicated it well I guess? To me at least it seemed as if you were saying a bunch of very different things. Yeah, I may have been sloppy, I am actually on Skype running my mage game rn.
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Apr 7, 2019 02:18
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Joe Slowboat posted:Yeah, I may have been sloppy, I am actually on Skype running my mage game rn. Oh. Don’t let me distract you with my forum bullshit. Just play the game and have fun!
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Apr 7, 2019 02:31
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Joe Slowboat posted:Like, my point was never 'the God-Machine isn't capitalism' or, Oracles forbid, 'how dare you put politics in these Totally Apolitical Games' it's that mage, by tracking more closely with the actual operation of politics in the world we live in, produces a lot more lacunae and hard feelings when it's discussed. I figured you out. The God-Machine can represent, but isn't inherently, capitalism. Meanwhile, one of the Exarchs literally is capitalism.
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Apr 7, 2019 02:37
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Joe Slowboat posted:Like, my point was never 'the God-Machine isn't capitalism' or, Oracles forbid, 'how dare you put politics in these Totally Apolitical Games' it's that mage, by tracking more closely with the actual operation of politics in the world we live in, produces a lot more lacunae and hard feelings when it's discussed. Yeah, and honestly, as much as I enjoy that aspect of Mage, I'm also glad there are games that get a little more distance from that. 
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Apr 7, 2019 03:17
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the thought i was having earlier, and never really got around to explaining, was that being a promethean set in a revolution sounds like a hell of a crash course on humanity in basically every way i can think of
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Apr 7, 2019 03:30
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Like in the core book itself one of the example Seers is fantasizing about how awesome it's going to be to use their weather magic to literally wash away the poor to begin properly gentrifying their neighborhood.
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Apr 7, 2019 06:50
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ProfessorCirno posted:Like in the core book itself one of the example Seers is fantasizing about how awesome it's going to be to use their weather magic to literally wash away the poor to begin properly gentrifying their neighborhood. Even worse, it's not like they're a cackling villain about it, they're so deep down the magic hole they're personifying the city as their deepest love and fawning over how great it will be to drown the poor to make her even prettier. This is their Obsession. It's my go-to passage to show people what happens when Seers pass the point of viewing this as their 9-to-5 where they're paid in the secrets of the universe and start drinking the tyranny-as-cosmic-majesty kool-aid. I don't think it's the most disgusting thing the Seers are described as doing, but the way it's presented makes it one of the most unsettling and nauseating to me. Ironslave fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Apr 7, 2019 |
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Apr 7, 2019 06:58
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I'm not convinced that's actually different from how the kinds of developers who invent anti-homeless benches and public spaces actually think. It's framed magically, but there are absolutely real life people who see the poor as a blight on the aesthetics of urban spaces (and the profit derived from them). I agree about the subtext thing though. My favorite Exarch is the Eye, who is fantastic story-wise and is also 'what if we sorta-but-not-really personified Foucault's take on surveillance and then literally called their cult Panopticon.'
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Apr 7, 2019 07:22
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Joe Slowboat posted:I'm not convinced that's actually different from how the kinds of developers who invent anti-homeless benches and public spaces actually think. It's framed magically, but there are absolutely real life people who see the poor as a blight on the aesthetics of urban spaces (and the profit derived from them). The Eye's the most fun because they're simultaneously the most-pervasive, the least-direct, and exert influence simply by watching. Their cult was around for god-knows-how-long before the Seers even formed because the nature of their patron and her powers made keeping in contact easy, and I'm left wondering what they got up to for all that time before they joined with the other tyrants. The General and the Unity are runner-ups due to how frustratingly hard it is to not invoke their own symbols to try and oppose them. I'm hoping we get some more info on the extinct Geryon Ministry come the release of Signs of Sorcery, just because I'm curious what they looked like as a Greater Ministry.
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Apr 7, 2019 07:37
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