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quote:like, is the "hollows with claymores" bit you're talking about the part with a lot of the soldier hollows in lost bastille? is that the part you found to be "frankly unfair"? why? And honestly, yes, it's unfair. If you actually managed to survive even half of those on your first try, it was nothing but sheer dumb luck. The encounter design in DS2 is just plain bad and heavily relies on throwing you into the kind of group fights that the game mechanics just weren't made for dealing with. There's maybe a handful of enemies in the game that are actually designed in a way that makes legitimately challenging to fight. The rest of the time, the difficulty comes from struggling against the combat system, because there's just no real counter to groups of trash mobs swarming you in a confined space except for just not being there in the first place. Pull a group out one by one, because you already know where they all are, and there's barely any challenge to it, and that's really the thing that bothers me the most about it. Compared to Dark Souls 1 and 3, there's very little middle ground: you're either cheesing your fights or you're being put at so much of a disadvantage that there's not really anything you can do. Dark Souls' entire shtick was that even when I failed, it always felt like it was my own fault and that there was something I could've legitimately done better. In DS2, half the time I felt like just got the luck of the draw - one more guy getting stuck on geometry or wandering out of aggro range, but not really because of anything I did. All in all, it just felt a lot less rewarding to me because of that. It was just all really frustrating and felt sloppy in a way that DS1 wasn't.
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Apr 6, 2019 20:54
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people who don't like ds2 after scholar's update are pretty much giant whiny babies tbqh
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Apr 6, 2019 20:59
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Cardiovorax posted:Among others. The ballista ambush in the forest keep is another, then there's that one house in Wharf where they literally crash through the wall to get you, endless spider rush in Brightstone, the spot with the four fat guys in Harvest Valley, Ruin Sentinels count all by themselves because who the gently caress expects three bosses at once, pretty much just the entirety of the Shrine of Amana, etc etc etc. It's a long, long list, is all I have to say to that. My face went  when i read this.Also i want to say that No Man's Wharf is slowly becoming one of my favorite souls areas. e: For DS3 its probably Cathedral of the Deep heard u like girls fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Apr 6, 2019 |
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Apr 6, 2019 21:06
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If you have a weapon with a big horizontal swing it's pretty easy to take on that group of Royal Knights in Lost Bastille even if you run in and grab aggro from the ones past the stairs and the ones down the hallway to the left. If you back pedal and get them to group up on the narrow entry way you can swing, back dodge, swing, etc. Just don't over commit to attacking and it's doable. I think it's biggest problem might be that it's really impossible to run away if you realize you're in too deep. There are places in DS1 and DS3 that it's easy to get swarmed too. Have fun in the town part of Irithyll if you run too far forward! Or with the top of Blighttown. Or Capra Demon. DS3's biggest sin is smouldering lake being 20x less cool than ash lake. Ash lake's enemies suck but the music and atmosphere are so good I don't even care. comingafteryouall fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Apr 6, 2019 |
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Apr 6, 2019 21:11
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comingafteryouall posted:There are places in DS1 and DS3 that it's easy to get swarmed too. Have fun in the town part of Irithyll if you run too far forward! Or with the top of Blighttown. That one Undead Village encounter with the fat preacher lady by the fire is a good example for that. If you get mobbed in that fight, it'll be because you hosed up and ran right into the middle of it, but if all those guys just rushed at you with no warning as soon as they saw you DS2 style? Yeah, that would suck a whole lot more than it actually does.
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Apr 6, 2019 21:22
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Cardiovorax posted:FWIW, if there's one big difference I see there, it's that DS1 and 3 are set up so that you can always see it coming if you pay attention. It's possible to get swarmed alright, but there is more fine-tuning put into spacing things out so that can almost always avoid that, so long as you don't rush in or overestimate yourself. I dunno, in the same area they introduce those cage undead things, which are basically impossible to see coming on a first playthrough. I'm not saying I disagree with you overall, just that I don't think you're 100% correct. I think it's fun when the game pops out at you with something you had no way of anticipating, at least when it's properly planned out and given enough spacing. Like jump-screams in movies. They can be good and fun, but you can't overload your movie with them. SHISHKABOB fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Apr 6, 2019 |
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Apr 6, 2019 21:27
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SHISHKABOB posted:I dunno, in the same area they introduce those cage undead things, which are basically impossible to see coming on a first playthrough. I'm not saying I disagree with you overall, just that I don't think you're 100% correct. 
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Apr 6, 2019 21:35
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The crystal hollows in the Duke's Archives are a million times worse than any of the large group encounters in DS2. The only large group encounter I'd consider unfair is the hallway leading up to Velstadt, and that's mainly solved by figuring out the gimmick (killing the hollow that rings the bell that summons adds) and pulling the dudes from range. You can see them all from a mile away so I don't think that's too unreasonable. Pretty much everything else can be dealt with easily through a number of methods. Like wide swinging heavy stagger weapons like others mentioned, but also god drat alluring skulls. Seriously laughing at the people who say you don't have any crowd control tools in a game where those exist.
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Apr 6, 2019 21:37
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Cardiovorax posted:FWIW, if there's one big difference I see there, it's that DS1 and 3 are set up so that you can always see it coming if you pay attention. It's possible to get swarmed alright, but there is more fine-tuning put into spacing things out so that can almost always avoid that, so long as you don't rush in or overestimate yourself. You can see all of Shrine of Armana coming though. It introduces the "gotcha" guys in the water before introducing any other enemies and you can learn they're lurking where the fireflies are. You can see the spiders hanging out on the walls in Tseldora Brightscove. I think you can see the fat guys in Harvest Valley through their planks too, if you're paying enough attention. And they're set up in an area where you can kite them up and down the slope. Are mimics bad design? You're getting killed by a mimic at least once unless you've gotten spoiled or are super careful because of messages.
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Apr 6, 2019 21:38
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Cardiovorax posted:They're tall and red enough to be visible from like a mile away, so I guess that more of a metaphorical "didn't see it coming." No I mean the ones that are just a cage full of seemingly dead hollows. They sit there looking like a piece of scenery until you get close and they flail around. comingafteryouall posted:You can see all of Shrine of Armana coming though. It introduces the "gotcha" guys in the water before introducing any other enemies and you can learn they're lurking where the fireflies are. There's quite a few enemies in tseldora that pop out from under the ground.
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Apr 6, 2019 21:39
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comingafteryouall posted:Are mimics bad design? You're getting killed by a mimic at least once unless you've gotten spoiled or are super careful because of messages. quote:No I mean the ones that are just a cage full of seemingly dead hollows. They sit there looking like a piece of scenery until you get close and they flail around.
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Apr 6, 2019 21:57
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Why is dying from something you didn't expect and learning from it bad game design? Especially in a game where dying isn't a huge deal.
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Apr 6, 2019 22:01
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Fister Roboto posted:Why is dying from something you didn't expect and learning from it bad game design? Especially in a game where dying isn't a huge deal. Especially when that mechanic IS the game.
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Apr 6, 2019 22:04
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Fister Roboto posted:Why is dying from something you didn't expect and learning from it bad game design? Especially in a game where dying isn't a huge deal. It just needs to be balanced so it's fun and not annoying.
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Apr 6, 2019 22:08
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There's many people who claim that literally every situation in every Souls game can be seen coming if you just are observant enough, which is obviously horseshit, but as a blowback to that, people like to overemphasize every single situation which did get them killed in return. It's a terrible argument cycle I've seen happening a bunch again and again. Note: the first group is not present in the current argument, but I think most posters ITT have read what they wrote at some point or another and remember.
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Apr 6, 2019 22:12
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Simply Simon posted:There's many people who claim that literally every situation in every Souls game can be seen coming if you just are observant enough, which is obviously horseshit, but as a blowback to that, people like to overemphasize every single situation which did get them killed in return. It's a terrible argument cycle I've seen happening a bunch again and again. oh for sure the ostensible "fairness" of these games is basically a meme at this point, one that's especially strange because not only is it way exaggerated, it also flies thematically in the face of most of the games (which are about survival in and adaptation to a dangerous world where the odds are stacked against you)
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Apr 6, 2019 22:17
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Fister Roboto posted:Why is dying from something you didn't expect and learning from it bad game design? Especially in a game where dying isn't a huge deal. No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:the ostensible "fairness" of these games is basically a meme at this point, one that's especially strange because not only is it way exaggerated, it also flies thematically in the face of most of the games (which are about survival in and adaptation to a dangerous world where the odds are stacked against you)
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Apr 6, 2019 22:39
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Cardiovorax posted:Because dying from lovely trash mobs aggroing as a group and rushing you sucks and never actually stops being a problem. Dark Souls isn't Dynasty Warriors and I kind of resent the game for having combat encounters that you have no effective way to deal with, except to avoid them and pull them in from a distance like you're playing an MMO. I'm fine with difficulty and I'm fine with dying a lot. What I'm not fine with is dying to bad and lazy encounter design that could've been replaced whole with a single strong enemy each, one you can fight and actually learn to beat instead of just the most efficient way to avoid. As myself and others have pointed out, you have a lot of really effective ways of dealing with those kinds of encounters.
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Apr 6, 2019 22:41
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lol at thinking that one-on-one sword and shield duels are what these games are "about". These games are about cheesing dragons with hundreds of arrows
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Apr 6, 2019 22:44
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Cardiovorax posted:Because dying from lovely trash mobs aggroing as a group and rushing you sucks and never actually stops being a frustrating problem that you have no real solution for. Dark Souls isn't Dynasty Warriors and I kind of resent the game for having combat encounters that you have no effective way to deal with, except to avoid them and pull them in from a distance like you're playing an MMO. I'm fine with difficulty and I'm fine with dying a lot. What I'm not fine with is dying to bad and lazy encounter design that could've been replaced wholesale with a single strong enemy each, one you can fight and actually learn to beat instead of just the most efficient way to avoid it. It IS like an MMO. That's not a bad thing. It's also like a roguelike, or any mechanically deep RPG -- you are expected to understand the rules of the game and use the different tools available to you to overcome or avoid obstacles in your way. If you want a game where you're expected to fight every enemy in a one-on-one duel, that's not Dark Souls and it's never been that. Demon's Souls isn't like that, and from what I've seen, King's Field isn't either. They've all been about "cheesing" (there's no such thing in Souls games) most of the enemies.
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Apr 6, 2019 23:01
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feelix posted:This is such a stupid loving take, you're complaining about having to adapt and not being able to go through the game the precise way you want. King's Field kind of is. If you engage multiple enemies at once you're probably gonna eat poo poo, but the games don't make you do that much either. But KF's combat isn't really meant to be thrilling hardcore action either.
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Apr 6, 2019 23:09
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Also it's not like DS1 doesn't have a ton of encounters where you get ganged up on if you're not careful (or even if you are).
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Apr 6, 2019 23:12
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Yeah if you demand being able to fight without training enemies I don't know how you didn't give up on the whole series before Taurus
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Apr 6, 2019 23:14
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Fister Roboto posted:Also it's not like DS1 doesn't have a ton of encounters where you get ganged up on if you're not careful (or even if you are). One of the most memorable boss fights in Dark Souls 1 if not the entire franchise - O+S - is expressly about your ability to handle two enemies with dramatically different movesets at the same time.
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Apr 6, 2019 23:32
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Fister Roboto posted:As myself and others have pointed out, you have a lot of really effective ways of dealing with those kinds of encounters. It was kind of a letdown, because I played that exact same build all the way through DS1 and never ran into anything that made me feel like I wasn't given a fair shot at winning. I guess it made the difference feel more pronounced than it really is, but also made it kind of hard to miss how cheap a lot of it felt by comparison. quote:It IS like an MMO. That's not a bad thing. It's also like a roguelike, or any mechanically deep RPG -- you are expected to understand the rules of the game and use the different tools available to you to overcome or avoid obstacles in your way. If you want a game where you're expected to fight every enemy in a one-on-one duel, that's not Dark Souls and it's never been that. Demon's Souls isn't like that, and from what I've seen, King's Field isn't either. They've all been about "cheesing" (there's no such thing in Souls games) most of the enemies.
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Apr 6, 2019 23:42
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Cardiovorax posted:Sure, that's why I said I had a lot more fun on my second playthrough. It's all much more tolerable to deal with once you know what to expect and can build specifically towards that. If you're doing something silly like playing the game blind as a pure sorcerer who can barely even swing a dinky little dagger, though? Not so much. I too remember when I fought every belltower hollow in a one-on-one duel
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Apr 6, 2019 23:46
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How do I tell my Faith bonus for talismans? I have like 122 with A scaling on a canvas talisman but 110 with S scaling on the saints talisman... There's no + anywhere on the screen so?? Edit: is smithing with titanite worth it? I feel like titanite is pretty rare and the boost is real low? anothergod fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Apr 6, 2019 |
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Apr 6, 2019 23:49
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I think there's places in the game where it's more sane and/or more fun to "cheese" enemies, and places where it's more fun to just fight them head on. Like the silver knights on the steps to aldrich, you don't need to gently caress around with those guys. Just run at them and fight them. The archer silver knights in DS1? You cannot EVEN fight them one on one lol. Or at least it is basically crazy to.
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Apr 6, 2019 23:49
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One of the best tools in the series for crowd control is only available in DS2 - the Stone Ring. No other Soulsborne title puts an item in the very first area that gives something wild like +30 poise damage per hit, but DS2 did and it's amazing for controlling groups. As well, if you're using a big weapon it probably has a secondary attack that inflicts knockdown for holding down bigger foes. (I dunno if anything in DS1 did this, and DS3 forces you to charge that 2HR2 for it.) So yes, DS2 absolutely is fine with throwing groups of enemies at you because it knows you have the tools to deal with them.
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Apr 6, 2019 23:53
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Cardiovorax posted:Yeah, no. It's perfectly feasible to do exactly that in every Soulsborne game except Dark Souls 2, which I think is a pretty clear indication that it's actually just the one where they screwed up and/or just plain didn't put as much effort into balancing as the rest. lmao yeah I love the going through the snow fields at the beginning of Painted World of Ariandel fighting one enemy at a time. Totally a thing that happens.
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Apr 7, 2019 00:01
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I haven't been paying attention to this thread for long, but is it always 90% Dark Souls 2 talk?
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Apr 7, 2019 00:07
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Yeah, if you want to talk about DS3 take it to the DS1R thread.
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Apr 7, 2019 00:32
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comingafteryouall posted:lmao yeah I love the going through the snow fields at the beginning of Painted World of Ariandel fighting one enemy at a time. Totally a thing that happens. If you can actually find yourself a corner to get surrounded and stunlocked to death in a place like that, then I guess you've earned it for yourself, because that's probably more effort than just beating them all to death one at a time. What with it being a wide open snow field full of trees that make just lovely obstacles to break up groups with and all that. Seriously, though, there's this thing called "maneuvering." It's pretty drat easy to beat a group to death one guy at a time so long as you actually have some space to do it in. The problem with places like the Bastille ambush is that they give you all of six feet square of castle wall to work with. I didn't call them "basically unwinnable if you weren't expecting it" for nothing.
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Apr 7, 2019 00:47
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If we're thinking of the same place, you can always back out and lead them to a more wide open room.
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Apr 7, 2019 00:56
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Cardiovorax posted:I didn't call them "basically unwinnable if you weren't expecting it" for nothing.
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Apr 7, 2019 01:18
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All the "but there's tools!" posts are missing the original point. In order to use a tool, you need to know the situation you need it for. If you already have a gently caress-off Great Sword equipped when you walk into the room with six greatsword dudes swarming you, of course you're just gonna laugh and cream then. If you're Johnny Ninjaflip with a Falchion walking in there, then you're gonna be the one getting creamed. The start of this conversation was "couldn't see the swarm of enemies coming and got murdered, that sucked". Saying "but you can come back with a bigass sword for revenge" is not a counter to that. Neither is "but dying doesn't matter!" because it has already felt bad to the person complaining, and that cannot really be changed.
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Apr 7, 2019 10:00
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Like most complaints about 2 "the game is all about enemy mobs but DeS and 1 weren't" is bullshit and always has been, but I will grant that even after having beaten the game a dozen times I will still probably die first time to the Lost Bastille guys every time. And probably that goddamn turtle dude in the hallway with the guillotine. Orv fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Apr 7, 2019 |
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Apr 7, 2019 11:49
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Orv posted:Like most complaints about 2 "the game is all about enemy mobs but DeS and 1 weren't" is bullshit and always has been, but I will grant that even after having beaten the game a dozen times, I will still probably die first time to the Lost Bastille guys every time.
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Apr 7, 2019 11:52
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Apr 7, 2019 11:52
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i dont know why the thread insists on talking about the lovely game ds2 not even ds canon gives a gently caress about ds2 lol
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Apr 7, 2019 13:04
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