MMO CHAT: I'll probably buy and play that game even though it looks like dogshit

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The MMO HMO > MMO CHAT: I'll probably buy and play that game even though it looks like dogshit

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PyRosflam: Aug 11, 2007; The good, The bad, Im the one with the gun.

Gort posted:

This is kinda where I'm at. Your dev team will never be able to make content fast enough for your players to not get bored, so the only way to give your MMO any longevity is by making the players the content. Eve manages this by letting you put a flag down somewhere, make gear, and blow up vast quantities of game (and real) money fighting other players.

It's surprising that we've never seen a single-shard "fantasy Eve" MMO where players can:

* Control land
* Build and destroy player-owned castles
* Make and sell equipment that is destroyed when a character dies

You could have players hire NPC guards for their castles, sponsor monsters and bandits to invade other players lands, and so on. And make sure you have a map that colours in to show who owns what, they'll eat that poo poo up.

Holy poo poo.

This was the same idea building in my head too.

Let me or my guild build a crazy base, hire guards and place them, give me some restrictions on level or cost or something so I can create content based on gear or level or something. Give me a reason for my content to be cleared successfully (this is a must). Force all stuff to stay online always (perhaps not the toon your playing).

Huge skill trees that train like both EvE and ESO at the same time to prevent players from getting stuck.

You could even steal EvEs idea for high mid and null sec. High has restrictions in size and level ranges, null has nothing.

But seriously, you need a benefit to the builder to build content that gets cleared so that the crazy dungeon of doom actually gets seen. Perhaps more build points to go deeper etc.

# ? Apr 2, 2019 00:13

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# ? May 26, 2024 22:33

Cardboard Fox: Feb 8, 2009; [Tentatively Excited]

Gort posted:

* Control land
* Build and destroy player-owned castles
* Make and sell equipment that is destroyed when a character dies

You could have players hire NPC guards for their castles, sponsor monsters and bandits to invade other players lands, and so on. And make sure you have a map that colours in to show who owns what, they'll eat that poo poo up.

That really is the perfect MMO that I have in my head. Allow me and my friends to build a shelter from the ground up and defend it against interesting PvE encounters (with optional PvP), trade with other guilds by using a caravan system you have to maintain, and throw in some large open dungeons that can be farmed for rarer materials. Make the entire economy player driven, allow a player who just wants to farm and sell pumpkins on his farm to be an actual viable way to play the game, and eventually give players the tools to create giant cities that span a massive world.

This is what all the survival pseudo MMOs are trying to do now. I'm not sure why none of them can nail it. Either the game is a technical disaster, or the player base is so toxic that it makes playing the game an absolute chore. Something about the PvP in those games just bring out the worst in people.

# ? Apr 2, 2019 01:41

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

The Moon Monster posted:

I was under the impression that there are a bunch of MMOs like this but there's only so much playerbase that actually wants that so none of them hit critical mass.

they also tend to look bad and/or just feel lovely to navigate, either in terms of MU or moving your character around

# ? Apr 2, 2019 02:16

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Gort posted:

This is kinda where I'm at. Your dev team will never be able to make content fast enough for your players to not get bored, so the only way to give your MMO any longevity is by making the players the content. Eve manages this by letting you put a flag down somewhere, make gear, and blow up vast quantities of game (and real) money fighting other players.

It's surprising that we've never seen a single-shard "fantasy Eve" MMO where players can:

* Control land
* Build and destroy player-owned castles
* Make and sell equipment that is destroyed when a character dies

You could have players hire NPC guards for their castles, sponsor monsters and bandits to invade other players lands, and so on. And make sure you have a map that colours in to show who owns what, they'll eat that poo poo up.

This is what shroud of the avatar wants to be, but its incompetent.

Maybe that dark age of camelot game will do it.

The Moon Monster posted:

I was under the impression that there are a bunch of MMOs like this but there's only so much playerbase that actually wants that so none of them hit critical mass.

Nah, there's a bunch of loving empty games with nothing to do in them like DayZ and ARK and Rust and whatnot, but as for actual fantasy EVE with some content, (And IMO EVE doesn't have enough pve content by half) there isn't really any.

There's been several attempts and a few are ongoing but none have really delivered.

The old original MMOs were the best we ever got in that land, Everquest, Final Fantasy XI, Shadowbane, SW: Galaxies, that was the most standboxy high-budget MMOs ever were.

# ? Apr 2, 2019 03:09

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

PyRosflam posted:

Holy poo poo.

This was the same idea building in my head too.

Let me or my guild build a crazy base, hire guards and place them, give me some restrictions on level or cost or something so I can create content based on gear or level or something. Give me a reason for my content to be cleared successfully (this is a must). Force all stuff to stay online always (perhaps not the toon your playing).

Huge skill trees that train like both EvE and ESO at the same time to prevent players from getting stuck.

You could even steal EvEs idea for high mid and null sec. High has restrictions in size and level ranges, null has nothing.

But seriously, you need a benefit to the builder to build content that gets cleared so that the crazy dungeon of doom actually gets seen. Perhaps more build points to go deeper etc.

I've been kicking a game idea around in my head for awhile,

what if it wasn't even like a proper MMO in structure, but just like, you had a base that was kinda its own world. Then you could declare war on another guild, and then the game would temporarily stitch your worlds together so there'd be like a bridge connecting your fantasy fortress to their fantasy castle, and then after you guys war for a bit, the bridge loads away and you aren't connected anymore, and then you can attack some other city and the game connects your worlds together. There could be NPC monsters roaming around the countryside to give you some PvE content and things to do in-between attacking cities.

The challenges with that as I see it are:

1. Only the "king" or officers would really interact with the base-building and guard-hiring mechanics, the rest of the guild would just contribute and watch.
a. this could be addressed by focusing on smaller guilds, maybe even not allowing massive armies or guaranteeing that large armies only get matched against large armies, so small guilds are still viable.

2. Combat would have to occur in some kind of real-time, would you declare war for an hour? or a day? or what? You could have the two teams negotiate a time period they'd both be available, but that's a whole matchmaking challenge.

But I'd love to see some kind of game like that, you could call it... Guild Wars... :cheeky:

# ? Apr 2, 2019 03:12

30.5 Days: Nov 19, 2006

Gort posted:

This is kinda where I'm at. Your dev team will never be able to make content fast enough for your players to not get bored, so the only way to give your MMO any longevity is by making the players the content. Eve manages this by letting you put a flag down somewhere, make gear, and blow up vast quantities of game (and real) money fighting other players.

It's surprising that we've never seen a single-shard "fantasy Eve" MMO where players can:

* Control land
* Build and destroy player-owned castles
* Make and sell equipment that is destroyed when a character dies

You could have players hire NPC guards for their castles, sponsor monsters and bandits to invade other players lands, and so on. And make sure you have a map that colours in to show who owns what, they'll eat that poo poo up.

Is it weird that an MMO that only works technologically because there's no direct WASD control, time can slow down without serious repercussions, and there's hardly anything to render, has not been replicated outside of those exact constraints?

# ? Apr 2, 2019 05:50

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Planetside 2 exists though.

I guess it maybe has shards but there's like 2 shards? So barely.

# ? Apr 2, 2019 07:24

Glass of Milk: Dec 22, 2004; to forgive is divine

Wasn't there some... Shadow... Something where guilds could take over cities way back in the day?

# ? Apr 7, 2019 04:02

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Glass of Milk posted:

Wasn't there some... Shadow... Something where guilds could take over cities way back in the day?

Shadowbane, yeah

And Star Wars Galaxies had straight up player cities. I think Shadowbane may have too, I never played it, but it sounded awesome.

# ? Apr 7, 2019 06:10

Cefte: Sep 18, 2004; tranquil consciousness

Glass of Milk posted:

Wasn't there some... Shadow... Something where guilds could take over cities way back in the day?

Also Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, but their server infrastructure couldn't handle sieges.

# ? Apr 7, 2019 10:15

WonderfulWino: Sep 26, 2004; The grape wont cut me loose.

I just started playing DCUO last month and for an old game its pretty loving fun. I tossed down some cash on it after 3 days of free play. There is a lot of content there.

I been chasing the dragon since the early days of UO. DaoC came closest to scratching that itch.

# ? Apr 7, 2019 15:59

The Moon Monster: Dec 30, 2005

Cefte posted:

Also Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, but their server infrastructure couldn't handle sieges.

That was just a DAoC sort of thing where the only thing you could take over were forts that only existed for the purpose of being PvP objectives. If you reached some level of dominance you could attack the other faction's capital and kill their leader, but it was basically just a PvP event, you didn't then gain control of their city or anything.

# ? Apr 7, 2019 17:12

Khorne: May 1, 2002

MMO is a bad genre to make money in for most studios capable of making an MMO. It also seems like there's not huge demand for it. Things like ARPGs, warframe, and minecraft servers seem to have grabbed the attention of would-be MMO players who aren't interested in competitive titles.

Lots of people are old rear end men/women now, too, which means you have way less time and far more ways to spend it. Maybe MMO is a young person's genre, and most young people aren't into them.

30.5 Days posted:

Is it weird that an MMO that only works technologically because there's no direct WASD control, time can slow down without serious repercussions, and there's hardly anything to render, has not been replicated outside of those exact constraints?

WASD movement is overrated. Click to move with and tile based movement and gameplay is pretty fun, but very few games have went that route. It lets you have almost-ARPG style gameplay but with a more chess-like focus on position and actions. And it's ultra server friendly if you implement it right while not allowing any kind of cheating or ambiguity with player positioning and hitboxes. It does require a different kind of thinking for developing it, though, because players won't have an absolute position like in most normal titles. They'll be "within a tile", which is their absolute position, and it will take "a period of time" to leave that tile. If they get hit or do something that stops movement while 'moving' they return to being stationary in that tile. So if you walk for 450ms when it takes 500ms to move a tile and get hit it's like you haven't walked at all.

It sounds weird when trying to describe it, but in terms of gameplay it works really well and is as satisfying as any ARPG if done right. To the point where intentionally canceling movement, or actions, before they complete lets you fake people out. It's not even MMO-specific. It could be done in an ARPG, RTS, or any kind of RPG honestly.

Khorne fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Apr 8, 2019

# ? Apr 8, 2019 00:27

hobocrunch: Mar 11, 2008; I'm walkin' here

Khorne posted:

MMO is a bad genre to make money in for most studios capable of making an MMO. It also seems like there's not huge demand for it. Things like ARPGs, warframe, and minecraft servers seem to have grabbed the attention of would-be MMO players who aren't interested in competitive titles.

Lots of people are old rear end men/women now, too, which means you have way less time and far more ways to spend it. Maybe MMO is a young person's genre, and most young people aren't into them.
WASD movement is overrated. Click to move with and tile based movement and gameplay is pretty fun, but very few games have went that route. It lets you have almost-ARPG style gameplay but with a more chess-like focus on position and actions. And it's ultra server friendly if you implement it right while not allowing any kind of cheating or ambiguity with player positioning and hitboxes. It does require a different kind of thinking for developing it, though, because players won't have an absolute position like in most normal titles. They'll be "within a tile", which is their absolute position, and it will take "a period of time" to leave that tile. If they get hit or do something that stops movement while 'moving' they return to being stationary in that tile. So if you walk for 450ms when it takes 500ms to move a tile and get hit it's like you haven't walked at all.

It sounds weird when trying to describe it, but in terms of gameplay it works really well and is as satisfying as any ARPG if done right. To the point where intentionally canceling movement, or actions, before they complete lets you fake people out. It's not even MMO-specific. It could be done in an ARPG, RTS, or any kind of RPG honestly.

All of this sounds awful.

# ? Apr 8, 2019 03:31

Khorne: May 1, 2002

hobocrunch posted:

All of this sounds awful.

It's awesome and far more seamless than it sounds. One of my favorite games of all time worked that way. I just used an inflated time to illustrate how it works. In that game, it was closer 100ms-180ms per tile depending on move speed. A better analogy might be to take a tactics style rpg and remove the turns while making it a bit more real time.

I dislike wasd movement in MMOs because there's always a ridiculous amount of interpolation and trust placed in the client. Even in WoW, which has solid netcode compared to many other MMOs, ranges and player positions feel so floaty and indecisive. And I got rank 1 glad in 3s & 5s during WotLK/Cata so it's not like I wasn't used to the game. I was a competitive FPS player before that so I'm no stranger to wasd or lovely netcode.

It's one of those things where what it shows players looks good, which is apparently enough given how trash combat/movement are in many titles that get praised for it, but when you look for what's actually happening it's a big a letdown. The way I described can look a bit awkward, but the way it plays is great and what it shows you is accurate.

Heck, even a good tactics style MMO would be sweet as hell.

Khorne fucked around with this message at 04:09 on Apr 8, 2019

# ? Apr 8, 2019 03:51

Relayer: Sep 18, 2002

Original vanilla UO where you could be a dread lord and own a tent and break\glitch into people's houses and loot them and scam people out of millions of gold by claiming to own a house you just simply don't own, and demand half up front and they actually fall for it, will forever be the pinnacle of entertainment.

# ? Apr 8, 2019 03:55

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Zaphod42 posted:

There's that one fantasy mmo where you're supposed to be able to get ships and be pirates... but it looks super mega janky. Lots of those DayZ/Rust/Conan/etc. "survival" mmos out there which also have barely no content and try to pretend that player interaction alone makes a game.

umm excuse me, RUST is incredible, observe:

but srsly tho, I actually wanted to talk about RUST itt because after building my new rig and getting sucked back into it, i honestly feel like there's design space to explore for a way to interconnect and broaden a world like RUST from one island to a series of countries or lands that can be invaded/explored/settled/developed.

i feel like RUST alone basically has the seed of what the MMO genre could transform into for the old base of enthusiasts and a new generation of players. MMO's started more as a HOBBY than a GAME, and they devolved INTO games, everything became super gamified and lame. there's a stark distinction between the two to me, a hobby requires more work, and knowledge, and setbacks, and growth than a game. a game is something you kinda pick up, learn, master, and toss unless it keeps changing skins to become interesting, and MMOs today have guaranteed progression to some extent, so what even are they? a hobby has some broad horizons and terrain, and you kinda cultivate your own niche inside of it and do the things that are fun to you, and gravitate towards players who are the same, there's affinity happening.

the original MMOs were super interesting syntheses of tabletop and map gaming, D&D, MUDS, etc., but in a super accessible digital format.

the emergent gameplay we were always promised from systems of AI behavior and rulesets has been delivered in the form of putting 300 people into a massive sandbox and giving them the tools to create various forms of social and anti-social entanglements. at the end of the day it's still "might makes right", in that, the guy with the most guns and people aiming them can do what they want (still the same IRL, honestly), but given the choice a lot of people like to play more calculated roles, even to people they can easily crush, because it's more interesting to them as well, or more flattering to their ego, or because they just enjoy the power trip.

this wipe in RUST, i'm rolling with 3 long time buds and a couple of new people. every day we're 4-5-6 deep in Discord, hootin' and hollerin' and doing poo poo together. we've had awesome windfalls, and crushing setbacks, we've made diplomatic alliances with our neighbors, organically, just out of mutual benefit, we've traded items in the game, raw materials, intel, gossip, trash talking, etc. someone overloaded a store inside a base with super valuable items, so we made a bunch of explosive bullets and blew down a wall and stole them all. i've spent hours scuba diving for scrap and salvage, stalking people through ruined wastelands, getting murdered while recycling items in dangerous areas, etc. People super min/max and dominate servers with endless rocket launcher raids, some roleplay as hotel managers and let solo players stay in their base for a materials fee, and everything in between. it's all wide open.

there's no quest log or glowing "!" to tell us where to go and what to do, you have to strategize based on the (procedurally generated) map, where OTHER players have decided to base, the flow of foot traffic and roamers on roads, the location of contested PVE monuments with super valuable loot (kind of like PVE raids, basically), there's literally always something to do, and not only is that the case, but you get to completely decide what that is and what you hope it'll lead to.

i hope someone recognizes the potential of the bones of a game like RUST, and the thousands of concerted development hours to get everything right. there are tens of million dollar games from AAA devs that came and went like farts while RUST still has a VERY large community that has consistently grown over 6 years. it's not MILLIONS of players paying BILLIONS of dollars, but its a large community of dedicated hobbyists that has tons and tons of awesome stories and has created a lot of friendships and connections.

don't get me wrong; the game is toxic as poo poo, because of the twitch gunplay and the types it attracts on the surface, but underneath, it's the best thing going :unsmith:

# ? Apr 8, 2019 04:12

jokes: Dec 20, 2012; Uh... Kupo?

Relayer posted:

Original vanilla UO where you could be a dread lord and own a tent and break\glitch into people's houses and loot them and scam people out of millions of gold by claiming to own a house you just simply don't own, and demand half up front and they actually fall for it, will forever be the pinnacle of entertainment.

The half up-front half after transaction scam remains the eternal best scam foundation

The enterprising online video game scammer might recognize other big hits in their scam playbook like:

My Internet Is Messed Up, Hang On I Will Return Your Items After I Relog

That Wasn't Me, That Was My Brother Sometimes He Plays My Character

The Trade Window Is Glitching Out Just Sit Tight

# ? Apr 8, 2019 04:20

LITERALLY MY FETISH: Nov 11, 2010; Raise Chris Coons' taxes so that we can have Medicare for All.

every time I see this thread I just scream THERE NEVER WAS A GOOD MMO in my head, has anyone posted that yet

# ? Apr 8, 2019 04:33

Relayer: Sep 18, 2002

jokes posted:

The half up-front half after transaction scam remains the eternal best scam foundation

The enterprising online video game scammer might recognize other big hits in their scam playbook like:

My Internet Is Messed Up, Hang On I Will Return Your Items After I Relog

That Wasn't Me, That Was My Brother Sometimes He Plays My Character

The Trade Window Is Glitching Out Just Sit Tight

Hahaha oh man yeah I was such a terrible dick back then. I actually went so far as to start a fake broker service, giving the impression that I was a trustworthy player who could act as a middle man for large transactions. I then actually did perform the service legitimately for a couple weeks, then announced a special lottery!

I set up an angelfire site with all the information you needed, including the prizes (none of which existed)! For only 10k, you could buy a ticket which was one of those blank books you could write in, and I put some random number in it and gave it to you. You could buy as many tickets as you want to increase your odds! On the day I was supposed to announce the winner I just never logged in, or ever played that character again. Then I made a new character, and the next day went around pretending I was a fellow victim of the scam so I could directly experience their rage in real time.

Relayer fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Apr 8, 2019

# ? Apr 8, 2019 04:35

jokes: Dec 20, 2012; Uh... Kupo?

LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:

every time I see this thread I just scream THERE NEVER WAS A GOOD MMO in my head, has anyone posted that yet

MMOs are often best reminisced about rather than played. Hearing Everquest stories are delightful until you actually watch a video of Everquest in action or, God forbid, play it.

# ? Apr 8, 2019 05:10

Ruggan: Feb 20, 2007; WHAT THAT SMELL LIKE?!

I�m at a loss of what to play these days too.

I really don�t love the standard western theme park style MMO. Standard kill quests and repetitive content are too far fetched for me, and I�ve done variants of them too many times. Played my share of these games and the idea of loading another wannabe WoW killer makes me want to off myself.

Super modern instanced MMOs also don�t appeal to me anymore. If I�m gonna play a single player game, why grind for it? Played GW2 for a while and more often than not felt like I was playing alone. What�s the point? I will admit the mount mechanics were pretty cool, though.

PvP �MMOs� are ok but unsustainable - too many wannabe wolves and not enough sheep, an unavoidable problem due to the multitude of options for sheep to flock to (unlike the UO days of old). I liked ganking in Albion for example, but the population dropped off pretty quick and it got progressively less fun.

Don�t have the time for EvE or other massive time suck games like that. Good stories come from that game but I�m not willing to put in the amount of time to generate them myself.

Really I tend to be most drawn to old school MMOs - recently having played a lot of the AC emulator and now p99. Part nostalgia factor and part raw experience. AC has an amazing and expansive world which is a ton of fun to explore. EQ forces player interaction to a degree most others don�t. But I still find them lacking, AC being too third-party-assisted and EQ being too slow in almost every sense.

Persistent world games like Ark, Rust, Salem, Haven and Hearth, Wurm - I really enjoyed those at a certain point in my life, but recognize that I�m no longer willing to put in the time to be competitive or have a really decent time.

BDO was fun but the endgame is 1000% too grindy and cash shop dependent.

I guess I don�t know what�s left. A game where I can feel like I�m making meaningful progress between sessions, play with real people that want to interact with me, and have some chance of getting good loot rolls in fights. Does that game exist?

# ? Apr 8, 2019 05:14

Ichabod Tane: Oct 30, 2005; A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4

That describes many games but, you seem to be chasing the dragon as it were.

# ? Apr 8, 2019 05:20

jokes: Dec 20, 2012; Uh... Kupo?

Well there's no such thing as meaningful progress in an MMO. The only way to make things meaningful in an MMO context in such a way to make players gain efficacy in the game environment is essentially to lock it behind a grind. In that regard, playing a game with the kind of micro-grinding where you, for example, level up your sword skill alongside player level alongside our healing magic because I hit with a sword and cast healing magic is a thing. Also having variants of gear types within roles is cool in defining "your" character's progression.

As far as finding a game where people want to interact with you, there's a difference between the skinner box of dungeon finder-esque systems and the reward system of exploration based systems. Within a dungeon finder system you are basically penalized as a group for individual failures by reducing the efficiency of the task. If all 4 rats need to push the button at the same time to get the cheese, and one rat keeps loving up the timing, the other rats will get really loving pissed at that idiot rat because they don't get their cheese as fast as they could if that rat wasn't an idiot. That's my hot take as to why the playerbase gets so toxic in WoW, etc.

I'd recommend you play FFXI. Play with trusts and play with people if you'd like. I have yet to group with someone and not enjoy just shooting the poo poo while we accomplish the same goals. Since you have trusts you don't NEED to group with randos which probably means that playing with people is far more positive-- it's at-will and is almost certainly easier than just playing with trusts.

# ? Apr 8, 2019 05:51

Ruggan: Feb 20, 2007; WHAT THAT SMELL LIKE?!

Glenn Quebec posted:

That describes many games but, you seem to be chasing the dragon as it were.

Yeah, good 'ol terminal case of the brain worms I guess.

jokes posted:

Well there's no such thing as meaningful progress in an MMO. The only way to make things meaningful in an MMO context in such a way to make players gain efficacy in the game environment is essentially to lock it behind a grind. In that regard, playing a game with the kind of micro-grinding where you, for example, level up your sword skill alongside player level alongside our healing magic because I hit with a sword and cast healing magic is a thing. Also having variants of gear types within roles is cool in defining "your" character's progression.

As far as finding a game where people want to interact with you, there's a difference between the skinner box of dungeon finder-esque systems and the reward system of exploration based systems. Within a dungeon finder system you are basically penalized as a group for individual failures by reducing the efficiency of the task. If all 4 rats need to push the button at the same time to get the cheese, and one rat keeps loving up the timing, the other rats will get really loving pissed at that idiot rat because they don't get their cheese as fast as they could if that rat wasn't an idiot. That's my hot take as to why the playerbase gets so toxic in WoW, etc.

I'd recommend you play FFXI. Play with trusts and play with people if you'd like. I have yet to group with someone and not enjoy just shooting the poo poo while we accomplish the same goals. Since you have trusts you don't NEED to group with randos which probably means that playing with people is far more positive-- it's at-will and is almost certainly easier than just playing with trusts.

Sure. FFXI turns me off for a few reasons - that it's heavy theme-park style (afaik) and that the FF universe has never really appealed to me. If the latter weren't true I'd give it a serious chance even though my impression is "theme park MMO".

Going back to my post, there are a few games that do really appeal to me and I enjoy, but they all have their own deal-breakers:

Everquest, my problem being the molasses speed of progression and repetitive combat. I do really like this game and in a way the slow speed contributes to why it is good (small gains feel meaningful), but I don't really love grinding the same 100 square feet for days.
Asheron's Call, my problem being the heavy reliance of third-party programs. If I could feel like I could play without Decal and not be ultra-gimped, I would play the emu way more. But I end up slippery-sloping down from light tool usage into creating macro quest-completion routes and running 8 shadow-clients because that's what you do. Sure, the blame there rests on me.
Black Desert Online, my problem being the pay to win endgame. You aren't doing much past level 50 without sinking some money into buying pets to pick up loot. The ultra-grind eastern mentality is fun for a little bit, but it does become repetitive.
Eve, Rust, Ark, my problem being the time sink to be competitive. I'm not at a place in my life where I want to do the 4AM batphone poo poo anymore.

Guess I'm not entirely sure what I want.

# ? Apr 8, 2019 21:41

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

Ffxi is most certainly not a theme park mmo. It's basically just everquest

# ? Apr 8, 2019 22:43

I said come in!: Jun 22, 2004

FFXI is anime Everquest. If Square-Enix could just modernize the UI it would be drat near perfect.

# ? Apr 8, 2019 22:55

Ichabod Tane: Oct 30, 2005; A most notable
coward, an infinite and endless liar, an hourly promise breaker, the owner of no one good quality.

https://youtu.be/_Ojd0BdtMBY?t=4

I'll never play a hotbar MMO again

# ? Apr 8, 2019 23:13

forge: Feb 26, 2006

smarxist posted:

umm excuse me, RUST is incredible, observe:

but srsly tho, I actually wanted to talk about RUST itt because after building my new rig and getting sucked back into it, i honestly feel like there's design space to explore for a way to interconnect and broaden a world like RUST from one island to a series of countries or lands that can be invaded/explored/settled/developed.

i feel like RUST alone basically has the seed of what the MMO genre could transform into for the old base of enthusiasts and a new generation of players. MMO's started more as a HOBBY than a GAME, and they devolved INTO games, everything became super gamified and lame. there's a stark distinction between the two to me, a hobby requires more work, and knowledge, and setbacks, and growth than a game. a game is something you kinda pick up, learn, master, and toss unless it keeps changing skins to become interesting, and MMOs today have guaranteed progression to some extent, so what even are they? a hobby has some broad horizons and terrain, and you kinda cultivate your own niche inside of it and do the things that are fun to you, and gravitate towards players who are the same, there's affinity happening.

the original MMOs were super interesting syntheses of tabletop and map gaming, D&D, MUDS, etc., but in a super accessible digital format.

the emergent gameplay we were always promised from systems of AI behavior and rulesets has been delivered in the form of putting 300 people into a massive sandbox and giving them the tools to create various forms of social and anti-social entanglements. at the end of the day it's still "might makes right", in that, the guy with the most guns and people aiming them can do what they want (still the same IRL, honestly), but given the choice a lot of people like to play more calculated roles, even to people they can easily crush, because it's more interesting to them as well, or more flattering to their ego, or because they just enjoy the power trip.

this wipe in RUST, i'm rolling with 3 long time buds and a couple of new people. every day we're 4-5-6 deep in Discord, hootin' and hollerin' and doing poo poo together. we've had awesome windfalls, and crushing setbacks, we've made diplomatic alliances with our neighbors, organically, just out of mutual benefit, we've traded items in the game, raw materials, intel, gossip, trash talking, etc. someone overloaded a store inside a base with super valuable items, so we made a bunch of explosive bullets and blew down a wall and stole them all. i've spent hours scuba diving for scrap and salvage, stalking people through ruined wastelands, getting murdered while recycling items in dangerous areas, etc. People super min/max and dominate servers with endless rocket launcher raids, some roleplay as hotel managers and let solo players stay in their base for a materials fee, and everything in between. it's all wide open.

there's no quest log or glowing "!" to tell us where to go and what to do, you have to strategize based on the (procedurally generated) map, where OTHER players have decided to base, the flow of foot traffic and roamers on roads, the location of contested PVE monuments with super valuable loot (kind of like PVE raids, basically), there's literally always something to do, and not only is that the case, but you get to completely decide what that is and what you hope it'll lead to.

i hope someone recognizes the potential of the bones of a game like RUST, and the thousands of concerted development hours to get everything right. there are tens of million dollar games from AAA devs that came and went like farts while RUST still has a VERY large community that has consistently grown over 6 years. it's not MILLIONS of players paying BILLIONS of dollars, but its a large community of dedicated hobbyists that has tons and tons of awesome stories and has created a lot of friendships and connections.

don't get me wrong; the game is toxic as poo poo, because of the twitch gunplay and the types it attracts on the surface, but underneath, it's the best thing going

So basically Atlas.. Except that turned out bad.

# ? Apr 8, 2019 23:19

Hav: Dec 11, 2009; Fun Shoe

Cefte posted:

Also Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning, but their server infrastructure couldn't handle sieges.

That was more that the city invasion after locking all the regions was the endgame, so you got to hit your bar skills over and over for a couple of hours at low FPS.

Age of Conan had the concept of player cities that would be attacked directly by other players, but it never really got off the ground because they concentrated on the campaign before getting to grips with the endgame, then ended up trying to backfill raids with stuff that kept people amused on the meantime. They planned for siege engines and mammoths, etc. -> http://www.ageofconan.com/news/guild_cities

Anarchy Online had player apartments to start - you'd loot a _lot_ of furniture and costumes from the dungeons. They eventually turned into player cities, but still very abstract.

# ? Apr 8, 2019 23:51

jokes: Dec 20, 2012; Uh... Kupo?

Ruggan posted:

Yeah, good 'ol terminal case of the brain worms I guess.

Sure. FFXI turns me off for a few reasons - that it's heavy theme-park style (afaik) and that the FF universe has never really appealed to me. If the latter weren't true I'd give it a serious chance even though my impression is "theme park MMO".

Going back to my post, there are a few games that do really appeal to me and I enjoy, but they all have their own deal-breakers:

Everquest, my problem being the molasses speed of progression and repetitive combat. I do really like this game and in a way the slow speed contributes to why it is good (small gains feel meaningful), but I don't really love grinding the same 100 square feet for days.

Asheron's Call, my problem being the heavy reliance of third-party programs. If I could feel like I could play without Decal and not be ultra-gimped, I would play the emu way more. But I end up slippery-sloping down from light tool usage into creating macro quest-completion routes and running 8 shadow-clients because that's what you do. Sure, the blame there rests on me.

Black Desert Online, my problem being the pay to win endgame. You aren't doing much past level 50 without sinking some money into buying pets to pick up loot. The ultra-grind eastern mentality is fun for a little bit, but it does become repetitive.

Eve, Rust, Ark, my problem being the time sink to be competitive. I'm not at a place in my life where I want to do the 4AM batphone poo poo anymore.

Guess I'm not entirely sure what I want.

I'll be real, I think you want FFXI. It's nowhere near as bad on the grind as EQ imho and with modern QoL improvements you'll move to new areas very quickly but more importantly you'll need to explore and figure out which zones are worth checking out or just read a guide. It's completely removed from every single other FF game, excpet for things like moogles, chocobos, job titles and some enemy types.

But at the end of the day, all MMOs are going to disappoint you.

# ? Apr 9, 2019 02:49

Cardboard Fox: Feb 8, 2009; [Tentatively Excited]

forge posted:

So basically Atlas.. Except that turned out bad.

Still annoyed at that. Why can't a game like this just work? I just want a SWG/Ark/Rust type MMO that focuses on PvE.

Ruggan posted:

Guess I'm not entirely sure what I want.

This too.

# ? Apr 9, 2019 03:39

ziasquinn: Jan 1, 2006; Fallen Rib

The thing that makes FFXI bearable is botting.

But the thing that makes it fun is having little projects or goals to work on. Getting tons of gear for a new class you're leveling feels really good, and is only really possible due to third party programs like gearswap and such. Botting the grind and tediousness out of the game makes it.. uh... hard to play a normal game. But I did play on one of the private servers, Eden (which was emulating 75-cap era content with Aht Urghan jobs) and it felt completely different. More nostalgic for sure. But I don't have time for that, really.

I mean, I could, but I don't want to.

# ? Apr 9, 2019 04:04

Zaphod42: Sep 13, 2012; If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

FFXI was cool and good when it was popular and you could play on servers with friends and random Japanese people you've never met before and camp some zone for 2 hours while you watched TV and shot the poo poo

From my experience now though the live server is a complete ghost town where everybody groups in one zone and grinds to max level, so gently caress that. And I managed to connect to a private server but it seemed kinda janky and still not super populated.

Oh, also FFXI back in 2002 still looks better than World of Warcraft does today. The art direction and style are just so much better looking, even in that ancient engine. FFXIV is a modern theme park and different, but its also gorgeous.

# ? Apr 9, 2019 07:09

I said come in!: Jun 22, 2004

star eater posted:

The thing that makes FFXI bearable is botting.

But the thing that makes it fun is having little projects or goals to work on. Getting tons of gear for a new class you're leveling feels really good, and is only really possible due to third party programs like gearswap and such. Botting the grind and tediousness out of the game makes it.. uh... hard to play a normal game. But I did play on one of the private servers, Eden (which was emulating 75-cap era content with Aht Urghan jobs) and it felt completely different. More nostalgic for sure. But I don't have time for that, really.

I mean, I could, but I don't want to.

Are there any private servers that are up to date with the Live servers?

# ? Apr 9, 2019 08:02

Mr. Pickles: Mar 19, 2014

I said come in! posted:

Are there any private servers that are up to date with the Live servers?

That would be counter intuitive, who in their right mind would want to play that!!

edit: poo poo, I thought I was in the WoW forum, to hell with this post

# ? Apr 9, 2019 13:01

RagnarokZ: May 14, 2004; Emperor of the Internet

LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:

every time I see this thread I just scream THERE NEVER WAS A GOOD MMO in my head, has anyone posted that yet

I do that every so often, nostalgia is a powerful drug.

# ? Apr 9, 2019 14:01

DJDace: Mar 23, 2005; Professional Idiot - When to comes to stupid, we don't fuck around!

Zaphod42 posted:

Shadowbane, yeah

And Star Wars Galaxies had straight up player cities. I think Shadowbane may have too, I never played it, but it sounded awesome.

Shadowbane was a lot of fun. The game engine was a mess, but the core gameplay elements were really entertaining. Building your own guild owned city was fun, defending it from enemy players and staking out claims to control key resource areas / leveling spots was a hoot.

My dream MMO would be set in the Shadowrun universe. Perfect mix of sci-fi and fantasy elements. I always hoped a good developer would buy the rights and make a really amazing MMO based on that property but odds are it will never happen now.

I'll have to settle with playing DAoC on the Phoenix freeshard instead. Which is fun

# ? Apr 9, 2019 16:58

Draynar: Apr 22, 2008

DJDace posted:

Shadowbane was a lot of fun. The game engine was a mess, but the core gameplay elements were really entertaining. Building your own guild owned city was fun, defending it from enemy players and staking out claims to control key resource areas / leveling spots was a hoot.

My dream MMO would be set in the Shadowrun universe. Perfect mix of sci-fi and fantasy elements. I always hoped a good developer would buy the rights and make a really amazing MMO based on that property but odds are it will never happen now.

I'll have to settle with playing DAoC on the Phoenix freeshard instead. Which is fun

Isn't Crowfall just the shadowbane dev's trying again with what they learned?

# ? Apr 9, 2019 20:18

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# ? May 26, 2024 22:33

DJDace: Mar 23, 2005; Professional Idiot - When to comes to stupid, we don't fuck around!

Draynar posted:

Isn't Crowfall just the shadowbane dev's trying again with what they learned?

I had heard that. I'm trying not to get my hopes up as most new MMO's that caught my interest that were in development after Shadowbane and DAoC ended up being disappointments or failed to materialize at all.

It would be a breath of fresh air IF Crowfall ends up launching and delivers on the core gameplay promises being made as it would be everything we wanted Shadowbane and SW: Galaxies to be. The fact they're using an established engine gives me hope but that is tempered by the fact that other Kickstarter MMO projects have either failed to launch or didn't deliver what was promised.

# ? Apr 9, 2019 21:03

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The MMO HMO > MMO CHAT: I'll probably buy and play that game even though it looks like dogshit

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