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The Palo Alto Autopilot Experiment by Dr. P. Zimbardo
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Apr 10, 2019 20:36
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MomJeans420 posted:I should probably just look this up, but how is there not some kind of regulation on letting "autopilot" vehicles on the road? I guess it wasn't needed before because the real car manufacturers are (rightfully) scared of the incredible liability this imposes, but sooner or later autopilot is going to kill someone who wasn't dumb enough to buy a Tesla. What sucks is I'd overall prefer less government regulation and let the different manufacturers try out different methods of ensuring the driver is paying attention (like the new Cadillac STS or ATS or whatever it's called), but too much poo poo like this and we'll get some one size fits all approach at regulation that will probably stifle innovation. lol "why isnt autopilot regulated? i prefer no regulation, but why isn't this regulated??"
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Apr 10, 2019 20:37
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jre posted:Hmm the only thing we know about these pilots is their nationality, Let's just assume they were loving useless on that basis. Clearly a much superior white american would have somehow landed a completely unflyable plane while singing the star spangled banner. there were five reported incidents among u.s. carriers and no losses (of course they probably bought the extra bells and whistles!)
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Apr 10, 2019 20:37
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Last Chance posted:lol "why isnt autopilot regulated? i prefer no regulation, but why isn't this regulated??" ah the bitcoin exchange paradox
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Apr 10, 2019 20:40
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:there were five reported incidents among u.s. carriers and no losses the “bells and whistles” don’t do anything, that was the entire point of that post I made. if one AoA sensor goes haywire the MCAS system is going to try and kill you. it does not help recovery to know that MCAS is trying to kill you because it’s the left AoA sensor and not the right one because Boeing doesn’t have a procedure for switching between them. likewise the disagree light is in effect just telling you the air plane is actively trying to kill you now, good luck
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Apr 10, 2019 20:41
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MomJeans420 posted:Sorry to link to reddit, couldn't figure out how to get just the video link, but here is video of the water Tesla "Can't wait to see how the mainstream media plays this one.... :\"
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Apr 10, 2019 20:43
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MomJeans420 posted:Sorry to link to reddit, couldn't figure out how to get just the video link, but here is video of the water Tesla lmao did it go over the grass to get in there? i dont see any tire tracks
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Apr 10, 2019 20:47
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Endless Mike posted:speaking of crashes! another day, another autopilot crash mr. towed's wild ride
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Apr 10, 2019 20:55
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:you people there he goes again!!!
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Apr 10, 2019 20:57
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hobbesmaster posted:the crews of both planes turned off the electric trim system in response to a runaway trim condition which is exactly what they were supposed to do. thank you for the best explanation I've seen including in anything I've read written by ~professional journalists~
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Apr 10, 2019 21:09
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Yeah, thanks for explaining this. None of the news articles I have seen have actulaly explained whether the pilots understood the problem and followed the proper procedures; this makes it much clearer.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:13
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MomJeans420 posted:I should probably just look this up, but how is there not some kind of regulation on letting "autopilot" vehicles on the road? I guess it wasn't needed before because the real car manufacturers are (rightfully) scared of the incredible liability this imposes, but sooner or later autopilot is going to kill someone who wasn't dumb enough to buy a Tesla. this already happened. a test driver for uber killed a pedestrian
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Apr 10, 2019 21:16
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Elon "Monkey Cheese" Musk is living proof that people often don't act rationally, and such concerns about liability aren't even on his radar (much like fire trucks and lane markings).
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Apr 10, 2019 21:19
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MomJeans420 posted:I should probably just look this up, but how is there not some kind of regulation on letting "autopilot" vehicles on the road? I guess it wasn't needed before because the real car manufacturers are (rightfully) scared of the incredible liability this imposes, but sooner or later autopilot is going to kill someone who wasn't dumb enough to buy a Tesla. What sucks is I'd overall prefer less government regulation and let the different manufacturers try out different methods of ensuring the driver is paying attention (like the new Cadillac STS or ATS or whatever it's called), but too much poo poo like this and we'll get some one size fits all approach at regulation that will probably stifle innovation. air bud
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Apr 10, 2019 21:35
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my bet on both of those videos is the car seeing something that looks like parallel lines and assuming they are lane markers. in the first video it seems to screw up its steering when the two white poles holding up the road sign are in full view, and although we don't see how the second car went into the ditch/moat, it sure does have nice straight parallel sides.
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Apr 10, 2019 22:12
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:as some kind of weird coincidence, it's only shaky foreign airlines with poorly trained pilots that bought it with the disabled features 
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Apr 10, 2019 22:35
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no it's not about race, it's just that non-white pilots are worse at flying. how could you possibly misconstrue this as racist.
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Apr 10, 2019 22:46
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:as some kind of weird coincidence, it's only shaky foreign airlines with poorly trained pilots that bought it with the disabled features those shaky foreigner non white airlines ruining are buing airlines
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Apr 10, 2019 22:47
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aardvaard posted:no it's not about race, it's just that non-white pilots are worse at flying. how could you possibly misconstrue this as racist. but they have an extra muscle in their arms and more fast-twitch muscle fiber no, no i don't think that's accurate at all
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Apr 10, 2019 22:47
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hey maybe its just because they are more dense and the plane was heavier so it went down easier i'm just stating facts here
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Apr 10, 2019 22:49
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Friendly reminder: ironic racism is still racism
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Apr 10, 2019 23:02
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:as some kind of weird coincidence, it's only shaky foreign airlines with poorly trained pilots that bought it with the disabled features
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Apr 10, 2019 23:08
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iospace posted:Friendly reminder: ironic racism is still racism what about ironic anti-racism
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Apr 10, 2019 23:17
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incels interlinked posted:what about ironic anti-racism 
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Apr 10, 2019 23:17
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:maybe i should have just said "foreign airline," because you people want to make it a race thing, and it's just not Piss off
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Apr 10, 2019 23:44
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President Beep posted:mr. towed's wild ride lmao it makes me so anxious to watch how late autopilot makes turns
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Apr 11, 2019 00:07
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It's always very hard to tell what's going on from a dashboard cam when a car is long traction. It looks a lot more extreme outside the car when you can see the rear end end swinging around or the front wheels pointed the wrong way and can hear the tires squalling. From this first person footage wherever the car seems to "steer" off the road and wiggle the steering left and right, I would assume that it has lost traction and that the wheels are just pointed one way while it slams the brakes way too hard to not lose its poo poo off of the road. It simply looked like it entered the turn too fast to have any hope of keeping traction to have the presence of any indecisive steering matter at all.
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Apr 11, 2019 00:11
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that tesla took an offramp at over 70 mph without braking  of course it's going to fly off the road.
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Apr 11, 2019 00:22
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Combat Theory posted:Some bored medical faculty should do an evaluation of driver stress levels in regular cars vs "uncanny Valley of automation" self driving cars. judging by the number of videos / incidents of tesla drivers being caught sleeping at the wheel i'm gonna go with 'not very stressed'
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Apr 11, 2019 00:32
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Imagine how low-stress your life would be if you were both uninformed and stupid. And just weren't constantly aware of how dumb the world is and how simple actions like flipping on autopillot are eminently about to kill you
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Apr 11, 2019 02:29
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Rex-Goliath posted:judging by the number of videos / incidents of tesla drivers being caught sleeping at the wheel i'm gonna go with 'not very stressed' people who've never had a serious injury only considering the "well I have insurance to take care of the fixing the car! no biggie" aspect of a wreck
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Apr 11, 2019 02:52
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Dumb Lowtax posted:It's always very hard to tell what's going on from a dashboard cam when a car is long traction. It looks a lot more extreme outside the car when you can see the rear end end swinging around or the front wheels pointed the wrong way and can hear the tires squalling. From this first person footage wherever the car seems to "steer" off the road and wiggle the steering left and right, I would assume that it has lost traction and that the wheels are just pointed one way while it slams the brakes way too hard to not lose its poo poo off of the road. It simply looked like it entered the turn too fast to have any hope of keeping traction to have the presence of any indecisive steering matter at all. they posted on reddit saying they were going around 70 mph entering the exit and the car never bothered to slow dow
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Apr 11, 2019 03:00
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Shaggar posted:the upgrade to add the warning indicator or w/e doesn't even fix the problem tho. the problem is the anti stall system is poorly designed and does not work properly. hobbesmaster posted:the “bells and whistles” don’t do anything, that was the entire point of that post I made. if one AoA sensor goes haywire the MCAS system is going to try and kill you. it does not help recovery to know that MCAS is trying to kill you because it’s the left AoA sensor and not the right one because Boeing doesn’t have a procedure for switching between them. likewise the disagree light is in effect just telling you the air plane is actively trying to kill you now, good luck It’s this. Boeing is responsible, but not because they charged extra for a lightbulb. The pilots were doomed with or without the lightbulb. The airlines did not err when they declined to purchase that package. The pilots did nothing wrong. It’s not possible to train for something you don’t know exists. Saying “MCAS is poorly documented” is a gross understatement. Parts of it are entirely undocumented and for other parts, the documents lie. Boeing said MCAS can command maximum downward trim of 0.6°. It turns out the real figure is 2.5°.
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Apr 11, 2019 03:44
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hobbesmaster posted:both crews followed boeing's procedures as published and displayed excellent airmanship. they were not "poorly trained" by any means and assuming they were is insultingly racist. thats not at all what I was getting at. i am going to need to unpack my understanding of the full background to explain: 1. facing the prospect of losing 737 sales to the A320neo (up-engined A320), boeing had a problem: they could not mount larger diameter engines to a 737 due to its low wing. the 737 is a 1960s airframe originally designed for narrow turbojets, and boeing had already pushed engine diameter about as far as it could go in the 1980s when converting it to turbofans. so, boeing initially planned to take the hit and design an all new airframe. 737 customers told boeing they’d just go buy airbuses instead. that led to 2. boeing came up with a flawed plan to push the envelope of what kind of modifications can be made to an airframe and its flight handling characteristics without making it unsafe. they wanted to sell airlines and the faa on the idea that, for type certification and training purposes, the 737max was just another 737. also it had to be a rush job. but, 3. boeing knew that moving the engine mount point way forward and up (to get enough ground clearance) was going to produce a strong nose-up torque, doing bad things to handling and stall risk at high AoA, making the plane potentially very dangerous. so, 4. they invented MCAS. it’s intended to automate the nose down control input required to recover the airplane from flight regimes that aren’t dangerous on other 737 models. they claimed that MCAS would only trigger in extreme circumstances, so pilots didn’t need much training for it and then, 5. by running so much of the type certification themselves they managed to fool themselves into thinking mcas was safe and working as planned so, 6. pilots round the world started flying the 737max without adequate training on mcas, its potential failure modes, emergency procedures, how to disable, etc. boeing claimed it was just another 737 after all, and the faa rubberstamped it, and they’re both trustworthy right? boeing even went so far as to sell a mcas related warning indicator as an extra cost option so how serious could it be? and last but not least, 7. they weren’t trustworthy. turns out there are some pretty awful design flaws in the mcas system so, far from believing the pilots were at fault or invoking racist stereotypes, i think that boeing and the faa have blood on their hands. the pilots were in effect poorly trained on the type, but not due to any failing on their part. sorry for my op compacting all that into a shitpost without nuance adequate to distinguish it from “lol third world pilots amirite???”. i believe these things are all true: 1. they weren’t trained adequately 2. it was in no way their fault, or related to where in the world they were from 3. they did the best they could given the resources they had 4. the primary cause of the accidents was bad automation, the role of training here is only that better training would’ve given them a better chance of surviving the murderous robot
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Apr 11, 2019 03:49
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Imagine how low-stress your life would be if you were both uninformed and stupid. And just weren't constantly aware of how dumb the world is and how simple actions like flipping on autopillot are eminently about to kill you you've probably unironically used the phrase "idiocracy is a documentary", haven't you?
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Apr 11, 2019 03:51
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i'm the only smart one. all the people around me are uninformed sheeple.
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Apr 11, 2019 03:55
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ethiopian is the largest airline in africa and its pilots are as well trained as those of any other major flag carrier like british airways or lufthansa or whatever. there is no one specific cause of these crashes (and, indeed, there are dozens of different steps that would have prevented it had they not all stacked together) but ultimately it's another example of engineers ruining poo poo by not taking any human factors into account (the engineers may have been pushed to do this by dickless corporate bean-counters but they're still responsible)
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Apr 11, 2019 04:07
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BobHoward posted:thats not at all what I was getting at. i am going to need to unpack my understanding of the full background to explain: this is a good post
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Apr 11, 2019 04:07
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like, example: the MCAS system can command the stabilizer to trim down by 2.5 degrees every 15 seconds. (10 seconds to trim down, then a 5 second wait before trying again). if MCAS is faulty, you have to turn off the electric trim motors because otherwise MCAS will keep pushing the trim down like that every 15 seconds continuously. the stabilizer can rotate for trim through a range of 17.1 degrees. when the motors are off, trim is effected through the manual wheels, which are the black and white wheels on the outside here:  in manual mode, it takes 250 full rotations of the wheel to move from full up to full down trim (17.1 degrees). that is, one rotation of the wheel corresponds to 0.069 (nice) degrees of rotation. so, to manually recover from MCAS' trim command you would have to spin the wheel 40 times. to match the nose-down commands being generated by the computer you'd have to spin the wheel at 240rpm -- four full revolutions per second. do you think you could do that? how about with one hand, while trying to hold the yoke back with the other? how about when the wheel is actively fighting you, because you're trying to push a 15-meter-wide airfoil against a 300mph slipstream? like, as a human factors question, you don't even really need a professional ergonomist to tell you that it's an unreasonable demand, right? well, someone should have told that to boeing's engineers Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Apr 11, 2019 |
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Apr 11, 2019 04:27
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Dumb Lowtax posted:Imagine how low-stress your life would be if you were both uninformed and stupid. And just weren't constantly aware of how dumb the world is and how simple actions like flipping on autopillot are eminently about to kill you this describes your average Republican voter but I am sure they get stressed out about how the Jews or the Blacks or the Mexicans or the Muslims are about to attack.
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Apr 11, 2019 04:29
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