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brian posted:I think that justice for those crimes is the entire basis of leftist thought and why we do anything to make the world a better place at its core, that the disparity is why we need revolution and that it can't come from any form of consolidated state, which is why I'm an anarchist So you'd characterize the revolution as justice, then? baka kaba posted:right but the drone strike analogy is better here, because the problem is that it's not just Assange getting owned as a net positive, there are consequences for others - big ones in this case, and they're the whole reason this is happening to him. It's to instill fear in others who might take the same stand, so nobody challenges that power, and also to bang the authoritarian drum about traitors and how torture etc is actually good because these people deserve it. That's the actual outcome we're talking about here, it's bad (not for the people doing the bad process, they like it v much) I can sort of see that and yeah you might be right there. I'll have a think.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:11
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JFairfax posted:Out of Trump and Clinton only one of them had actually already committed war crimes when the election campaign was happening she was personally responsible for making obama get involved in libya when he wasn't certain about it
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Apr 11, 2019 19:12
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it owns that we're seeing the transition from hard-line communist to neocon ideologue take place in real time itt
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Apr 11, 2019 19:13
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Jose posted:she was personally responsible for making obama get involved in libya when he wasn't certain about it she's a loving scumbag OP https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgcd1ghag5Y
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Apr 11, 2019 19:13
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OwlFancier posted:So you'd characterize the revolution as justice, then? it would be a form of justice but not remotely the reason to do it, the justice would come from a fairer society that cannot perform the crimes of the past because it is created purely to serve justice over expediency, which imo is largely the reason why we've developed a history of systems of governance that don't serve the majority of the people
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Apr 11, 2019 19:14
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JFairfax posted:she's a loving scumbag OP Yeah true but loving Trump, man.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:15
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ThomasPaine posted:Lol how is she even in Labour. She's in Labour because Kinnock was a great big racist who didn't want another black socialist MP in Parliament.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:17
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ThomasPaine posted:E: this is the place in case anyone wants to feel very uneasy 
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Apr 11, 2019 19:17
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TheRat posted:Has it ever been proven he actively collaborated with Trump? I always assume he just loving hated the Clintons like the rest of us. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-secret-correspondence-between-donald-trump-jr-and-wikileaks/545738/ or your boy Cody has it in timeline form if you like! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqZ0RSdVsaQ&t=654s
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Apr 11, 2019 19:17
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Steve2911 posted:Yeah true but loving Trump, man. I know. But there's definitely an argument to be made that for world peace, world security, Trump was and is a better president than Hilary would have been. Domestically? No worse, far far worse. But on the campaign Trump was definitely isolationist. Only problem was is a massive liar who loves big toys. However, it's hard to overstate how deep into the interventionism and projection of military force Clinton was.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:19
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brian posted:it would be a form of justice but not remotely the reason to do it, the justice would come from a fairer society that cannot perform the crimes of the past because it is created purely to serve justice over expediency, which imo is largely the reason why we've developed a history of systems of governance that don't serve the majority of the people So, I'd agree, obviously, that you can make a more just society, and ideally one that couldn't perform mass scale crime, but I've never really considered that as being in relation, particularly, to existing society. I generally look at it as society presently is just accumulating an impossibly large and irreedeemable pile of wrongs that can't ever be put right. I've never really thought that justice could be universal and like, a bit part of why I would like a different society is precisely because of that. It's unpleasant to be aware of that all the time. And also unpleasant to be on the receiving end of some of it. I guess I'd characterize an ideal society as one that exists entirely within the limits of justice rather than one that establishes justice everywhere. Which I guess is kind of the same thing but looking at it from entirely the opposite direction?
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Apr 11, 2019 19:20
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Steve2911 posted:Yeah true but loving Trump, man. from an international perspective trump's biggest crime is how vulgar he is. most of the bad foreign policy bits would absolutely have been kept at by clinton as well, with a possible exception of the israel stuff he's a really bad president, but mostly too inept and lazy to achieve much outside of perpetuating the fundamental dysfunction of the american political system apart from that he's an example to follow for all wannabe demagogues, but berlusconi did the same thing earlier obviously i'd have preferred it if hillary won, but that's mostly re environmental policy and not making a habit of undermining important institutions, not anything human rights related
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Apr 11, 2019 19:21
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baka kaba posted:right but the drone strike analogy is better here, because the problem is that it's not just Assange getting owned as a net positive, there are consequences for others - big ones in this case, and they're the whole reason this is happening to him. It's to instill fear in others who might take the same stand, so nobody challenges that power, and also to bang the authoritarian drum about traitors and how torture etc is actually good because these people deserve it. That's the actual outcome we're talking about here, it's bad (not for the people doing the bad process, they like it v much) In addition to this, if Assange is extradited to the US and not Sweden the message being sent is literally "we don't give a poo poo if you raped someone, only that you went against US interests", which is kinda extra hosed.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:23
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JFairfax posted:I know. It's rather more complicated because while Trump appears to have dialled back US imperialism (give or take something appalling happening WRT Iran or Venezuela), he's also greenlit Russian and Chinese imperialism so long as America gets a slice of the pie. Countries are still getting conquered and asset-stripped at a merry clip, it's just other people doing it now. You can also argue that he's helped provide inspiration and material support for a wave of domestic fascist movements around the world, from Israel to Poland, which ain't great news for global peace and security.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:24
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StarkingBarfish posted:What the gently caress, some nutter in the commons has just said because we've not left without a deal far right extremists are getting rowdy and this is bad, can we leave please without a deal? A few pages back now 'cause you bastards post too much but this knob is my MP and he definitely is a knob. Seems to have not noticed that we had nazis protesting opposite the mosque on Canterbury Street a while ago, but Brexit is under threat from the utter loving incompetence of tory scum, so *now* the far right are legitimised? Shut the gently caress up Chishti. For the first time in a long time though, there are ripples of discontent in the swirling sea of blue that is Medway. Also, still holding out hope for Seaside Loafer. He's welcome to come and crap on our platform any day, pref one of the days Rehman "oh, is that a photo op I smell? I'm in!" Chishti is heading up to London.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:27
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OwlFancier posted:I've only half finished that but don't you literally stop a guy from killing every non english speaker on the planet? Okay here we go Ahab is not actually instrumental in stopping Skullface; he's there, and his involvement does in a roundabout way result in the genocide being avoided, but it's quite explicit that when he finally takes his revenge it's completely impotent and worthless. Half the parasite is destroyed by accident in a fire (the fire results from some other character having a huge vengeanceboner), the other half is neutralised on purpose by a supporting character choosing to forego their chance at revenge and ultimately sacrificing themselves. Honestly if you play the whole thing it's really heavy-handed but i- OwlFancier posted:It gets really drat repetative really quickly. Give me the cliff notes. I'm probably never going to slog through the second half. Oh, I see! This must be the bad opinion zone!
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Apr 11, 2019 19:29
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 The ultimate swirly
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Apr 11, 2019 19:31
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Cerebral Bore posted:In addition to this, if Assange is extradited to the US and not Sweden the message being sent is literally "we don't give a poo poo if you raped someone, only that you went against US interests", which is kinda extra hosed. I don't think we even want him any longer? The arrest warrant was dropped a while ago. Anyway Assange very probably deserves to be locked up without internet for things he's done, it's too bad him being extradited to the US means he'll be locked up for bullshit. I'd have preferred him doing time in Equador for pissing on his host's carpet
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Apr 11, 2019 19:32
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Renaissance Robot posted:Okay here we go Ahab is not actually instrumental in stopping Skullface; he's there, and his involvement does in a roundabout way result in the genocide being avoided, but it's quite explicit that when he finally takes his revenge it's completely impotent and worthless. Half the parasite is destroyed by accident in a fire (the fire results from some other character having a huge vengeanceboner), the other half is neutralised on purpose by a supporting character choosing to forego their chance at revenge and ultimately sacrificing themselves. OK I think I might have actually played all of that but just glossed over it because the MGS cutscenes are really weird and I spent too much time laughing at the editing. Somewhat ironically my main takeaway was that the boss appears to have no method of interacting with people that doesn't involve torture. Possibly best characterized by the fact that the only way you can say hello to your goons is punching them in the dick. Something something ludonarrative coherence. Thinking back I vaguely remember the whole "vengeance is pointless" bit but I think it ignores that your motivation for basically everything you do in the game is vengeance and it leads to you doing the productive things as well as the unproductive ones. All the bits you had to do prior to shooting off skull face's limbs are also vengeance motivated including the bit where you help save the world. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Apr 11, 2019 |
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Apr 11, 2019 19:32
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Renaissance Robot posted:Okay here we go Ahab is not actually instrumental in stopping Skullface; he's there, and his involvement does in a roundabout way result in the genocide being avoided, but it's quite explicit that when he finally takes his revenge it's completely impotent and worthless. Half the parasite is destroyed by accident in a fire (the fire results from some other character having a huge vengeanceboner), the other half is neutralised on purpose by a supporting character choosing to forego their chance at revenge and ultimately sacrificing themselves. as soon as i reached the repeat missions with restrictions i got bored and stopped playing
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Apr 11, 2019 19:35
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I'm happy for the embassy staff tho, bet they'll put their diplomatic immunity to the test tonight, celebrating
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Apr 11, 2019 19:36
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Renaissance Robot posted:Okay here we go Ahab is not actually instrumental in stopping Skullface; he's there, and his involvement does in a roundabout way result in the genocide being avoided, but it's quite explicit that when he finally takes his revenge it's completely impotent and worthless. Half the parasite is destroyed by accident in a fire (the fire results from some other character having a huge vengeanceboner), the other half is neutralised on purpose by a supporting character choosing to forego their chance at revenge and ultimately sacrificing themselves. I loving love mgsv but chapter 2 is very clearly a half arsed unfinished mess and they needed another year of dev time probably. Spoilers: Also I'm mad that there was zero fan service despite big characters from the series supposedly being around the same places at the same time but I acknowledge that was the point. Tijuana Bibliophile posted:I'm happy for the embassy staff tho, bet they'll put their diplomatic immunity to the test tonight, celebrating Yeah they're the only winners in this tbqh
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Apr 11, 2019 19:37
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:I'm happy for the embassy staff tho, bet they'll put their diplomatic immunity to the test tonight, celebrating They’ll have to all chip in for the hazmat clean up crew first
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Apr 11, 2019 19:38
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gently caress me I leave the thread for one loving day... Reminder to everyone that any argument about Assange that starts with the premise that he went into the embassy to avoid rendition is falling for a provably false narrative he put out in an attempt to avoid facing justice for the rape of two women.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:39
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Failed Imagineer posted:What? Man I have to try this Yeah you can do it with courgette or other similarly moist soft veggies too. Also you can just put them in e.g. a bowl, salt liberally, leave them for 20 mins or something, a pool of water will collect in the bottom of the bowl (a lot more than you might expect too) then you drain and rinse the salt off. Then when you fry it, you don't get the whole "for gently caress's sake when will the water stop coming out of these" phase and it also doesn't go soft and mushy but comes out much nicer. baka kaba posted:you can do it with courgettes too, just sticking them in a bowl and letting the water draw out works Yeah but it actually makes it harder to overcook them in the first place if you do the salt thing. Also if you are e.g. cooking aubergine in a stew of some kind it makes them hold together a bit better which I prefer just in terms of texture. Anyway, unrelated. Did somebody post this stuff in the thread already? https://twitter.com/steveparks/status/1116240917617360897?s=20 https://twitter.com/steveparks/status/1116247437033840640?s=20 So basically it seems like the massive outlier Labour 9-points-ahead poll which came out from a previously unheard-of polling company is actually a bit fishy (who'd-a-thunk?).
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Apr 11, 2019 19:41
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I got really confused and thought you were all taking about Moby Dick.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:43
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OwlFancier posted:So, I'd agree, obviously, that you can make a more just society, and ideally one that couldn't perform mass scale crime, but I've never really considered that as being in relation, particularly, to existing society. I generally look at it as society presently is just accumulating an impossibly large and irreedeemable pile of wrongs that can't ever be put right. I'm not sure it's looking at it form a different direction as much as a pointless distinction, if you're a realist in the way you present yourself as, then the functional result is the same, there is no way to have a society that exists within the limits of justice without accepting the reality of human behaviour and psychology. This isn't some tragedy of the commons nonsense, it's more that there's a lot of observable human behaviour that's well studied in various fields, we know that people will form power structures voluntarily in order to insure themselves against change, which we all know at a basic level is scary, these power structures will involve eventually falling to basic (e.g. unrelated to capitalism) corrupting influences (i.e. nepotism, human error, the various results of love, ideological stuff like market driven corruption and so on) entirely because time is a thing and nothing and no one is perfect. It's essentially why we have any form of government passed monarchies, we already recognise on a global scale the need for mechanisms to slow down these effects, but those mechanisms have repeatedly shown to be as susceptible to corruption as everything else. Therefore, in order to have a society that observes justice more purely we have to build a society based on understanding this effect as a primary impediment to human progress, in the same way that nationalists see a country's world performance/size as a primary motivator or whatever other ideology/position you want really. I don't think it'll be perfect but when you remove the profit and power motive from society as much as possible, it's going to become a lot easier. Also the world isn't irredeemable unless you're talking about climate change apocalypse stuff (which I think is complicated and the hopeful stuff has a lot of crossover with semi-accelerationist thought that I don't really think is that dumb), there's so much to learn about the world and how it works and how the left can operate more effectively to change the system and the internet is absolutely massive in changing paradigms of how we interact with power and organise. Also there's like a real current trend of the media and so on to present themselves as way more oppressive and effective than they are because they're under threat from the left on both sides of the atlantic and it can have an effect on your mood a lot imo, the entire idea is to make people feel powerless and ineffectual on an individual level, don't fall for it, individualism is the mindset of thatcher but people are way more malleable based on the society they live in than that trite shite.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:49
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Josef bugman posted:I got really confused and thought you were all taking about Moby Dick. Understandable. Both Assange and Moby Dick are large albinos, animated by an “unexampled, intelligent malignity”, and pursued by an insane petty tyrant
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Apr 11, 2019 19:50
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Darth Walrus posted:It's rather more complicated because while Trump appears to have dialled back US imperialism (give or take something appalling happening WRT Iran or Venezuela), he's also greenlit Russian and Chinese imperialism so long as America gets a slice of the pie. Countries are still getting conquered and asset-stripped at a merry clip, it's just other people doing it now. You can also argue that he's helped provide inspiration and material support for a wave of domestic fascist movements around the world, from Israel to Poland, which ain't great news for global peace and security. Israel doesn't need help with their fash they've been doing very well even before Trump. They had one as their education minister up until yesterday.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:51
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"I wonder what's going on in UKMT today..." *checks thread* 
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Apr 11, 2019 19:54
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mycomancy posted:"I wonder what's going on in UKMT today..." Business as usual then.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:57
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mycomancy posted:"I wonder what's going on in UKMT today..." it seems to be the same whenever issues around authoritarianism come up tbh.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:57
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Miftan posted:Israel doesn't need help with their fash they've been doing very well even before Trump. They had one as their education minister up until yesterday. Also LOL at the notion that Hilary would somehow do anything to change the US relationship with Israel
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Apr 11, 2019 19:59
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ThomasPaine posted:I loving love mgsv but chapter 2 is very clearly a half arsed unfinished mess and they needed another year of dev time probably. Oh yeah absolutely, not to mention the cut chapter 3.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:59
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brian posted:I'm not sure it's looking at it form a different direction as much as a pointless distinction, if you're a realist in the way you present yourself as, then the functional result is the same, there is no way to have a society that exists within the limits of justice without accepting the reality of human behaviour and psychology. This isn't some tragedy of the commons nonsense, it's more that there's a lot of observable human behaviour that's well studied in various fields, we know that people will form power structures voluntarily in order to insure themselves against change, which we all know at a basic level is scary, these power structures will involve eventually falling to basic (e.g. unrelated to capitalism) corrupting influences (i.e. nepotism, human error, the various results of love, ideological stuff like market driven corruption and so on) entirely because time is a thing and nothing and no one is perfect. It's essentially why we have any form of government passed monarchies, we already recognise on a global scale the need for mechanisms to slow down these effects, but those mechanisms have repeatedly shown to be as susceptible to corruption as everything else. I agree with most of that yes. With the irredeemable remark I was meaning that like, the really big injustices of the world can't ever be put right. You can stop new ones from happening, sure, and that's where I'd put my hope, but you can't address the existing ones. Like even if you made the world perfect tomorrow you'd never undo the bulk of the wrongs already done to people. You can't give them back years of their life or anything. So that's the motivator, the constant weight of irredeemable wrongs building up behind you, or being done to you. You can't have restitution for them so it begs for prevention. The limits of justice are incredibly short, so a just society has to fit inside them. Also re: individualism I'd generally hugely separate the individual from the societal. Thatcher was wrong because she didn't believe in society, I do believe in society but I don't think it has much relation to the scale that the individual operates on. As you say you individually can be great but your society will trend towards a state based on the aggregate of the humans in it, entirely with or without your input, and you individually can't escape the effects of society. So I guess it's not so much separate as "make almost completely subservient to". Your individuality being arguably definable as the bits of you that aren't utterly controlled by your societal context. I guess that's important because generally when people talk about separating them they're going on about perfectly free individuals etc. Rather the opposite, very unfree individuals who have very limited individual ability to influence their society, mostly existing as things which are affected by society, including in what forms of political organization they take part in. I am what I am politically because of my formative experiences, it was never a choice, etc. People live from day to day on an individual level. We interact with other individuals and that's where a lot of our emotional energy goes. But this all happens in the context of our society, and that relationship is largely one way. We don't really get a say in that society, it mostly just happens to us. I feel like we're arguing something very similar again from opposite perspectives. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Apr 11, 2019 |
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Apr 11, 2019 19:59
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In case anyone's still got space to be angry/frustrated about something else, the BBC have a good long read up about Dr Bawa-Garba, the doctor who was struck off - and recently won her appeal against this - after a child she was treating died in hospital. I read it this morning at work and got quite angry, even though I already knew some of it. Makes me wonder how quick my Trust would be to throw me under the bus if I hosed up.
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Apr 11, 2019 20:07
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JFairfax posted:Also LOL at the notion that Hilary would somehow do anything to change the US relationship with Israel
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Apr 11, 2019 20:11
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Don't read the replies on this steaming take https://twitter.com/francesweetman/status/1116310968370380801?s=19
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Apr 11, 2019 20:12
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Any other creator of a user generated content site filled with politically motivated material would be sat before senators who have nought to ask him but "how can we use this to our advantage." Any other rapist would be getting waved into the SCOTUS. In terms of being incriminated, especially in the US, Assange's mistake wasn't rape or trying to alter the political discourse, it was striking upward and not down. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Apr 11, 2019 |
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Apr 11, 2019 20:15
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Only time you peel a drat eggplant is after you've roasted it in the oven till the skin is charred black. Then mash it up with some tahini and lemon juice.
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Apr 11, 2019 20:16
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