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equipping blade runners all the time no matter what because going fast is fun and not going fast is not fun
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Apr 11, 2019 19:48
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Eiba posted:Why are we discouraging truck routes? They have great throughput and are way easier to set up than crazy long conveyor belts. And considering you will need a lot more than 60 a second of oil or plastic or whatever you end up shipping the conveyor belt is going to be ridiculously expensive. You should never be using basic conveyor belts by the time you're making oil pipelines. The steel plate conveyor belts move as four and a half times as much material as basic conveyors, and are ridiculously easy to mass produce. It's not that much harder to automate the encased industrial beams, and they carry about eight times as much as a regular conveyor belt. One belt will carry more raw resources than you produce without some really serious overclocking. And if you DO have the really serious overclocking and need to move more, just use the stackable conveyor pylons and doubletap it. It's worth making the conveyor belts anyways, because it makes it a hell of a lot faster to travel in that direction.
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Apr 11, 2019 20:58
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If you want a truck route to out-transport belts in average throughput, you'd need multiple truck stations on each end, since you can't fill/empty a truck station faster than a single belt anyway.
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Apr 11, 2019 21:02
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nielsm posted:If you want a truck route to out-transport belts in average throughput, you'd need multiple truck stations on each end, since you can't fill/empty a truck station faster than a single belt anyway. I'm wasn't talking about edge case optimization with limitless resources. In all likelihood when you're setting up your first oil base an absurd distance away you won't have a whole crate full of steel stockpiled up. Trucks are going to be way easier to set up in terms of time and resources. And more to the point, they're really cool. But yeah, if you do have an extra crate full of reinforced steel and an afternoon to burn, there's no reason not to make a conveyor across half the world.
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Apr 11, 2019 21:19
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Eiba posted:Well, you need one tiny segment of belt before your splitter to match a 2km level 4 belt, but sure. Technically you'd need two trucks to actually beat a conveyor. I ended up making a skyway for coal that consists of 9 tier 1 belts in parallel. Works fairly well, but I desperately want blueprints to make the setup faster. It's already quick to build, but it could be much better.
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Apr 11, 2019 21:21
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Dirk the Average posted:I ended up making a skyway for coal that consists of 9 tier 1 belts in parallel. Works fairly well, but I desperately want blueprints to make the setup faster. It's already quick to build, but it could be much better. What they need is for normal belt tower to be extendable by the stacking belt tower without having to start from the ground. That way I can string one belt with some height that allows me to drive under it then add layers or upgrade as appropriate.
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Apr 11, 2019 21:30
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When I got to steel the tier 3 (or 4, I forget) belt was so ridiculously cheap of course I’d just use that everywhere. Smelt steel ingots and it goes straight to rebar which is what the belt is made of. The recipe is stupid cheap.
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Apr 11, 2019 21:52
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Mk3 belts do seem cheap, but a big part of that is how ridiculously over expensive reinforced plates are right now.
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Apr 12, 2019 02:43
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[small brain] import raw materials by truck [medium brain] import raw materials by conveyor belt [large brain] build two-way conveyor belts between bases for use as moving walkways [powerslug brain] use conveyor belts to run between bases carrying an inventory full of raw materials
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Apr 12, 2019 03:24
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Ok screw the truck, we need robot humanoids that run back and forth carrying inventories full of raw materials. Ooo, or mechanically entrapped native creatures. Those fat strider things could probably haul a lot of oil..
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Apr 12, 2019 04:14
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I do think the devs are underestimating the Numbers/Efficiency crew for this game. They hint a bit in the flavour text that Vehicles Are Cool and suggest you to use those for long distance transport. Same with More smaller manufacturing focusing on building UP if you want more space. I agree with them. It's fun setting up trucks routes and watching them drive about. It's fun to have actual exploration. It's neat having proper movement between bases instead of making a stripmining operation and train it back to base all the time. Building UP is cool, having two levels of a factory is super neat. I'm on the fence about infinitely deep veins but I'm not sure how to fix it beyond veins dropping in quality over time 
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Apr 12, 2019 04:30
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Infinite veins are fine as long as demand continues to rise through the game. Eventually you need to tap more veins to keep production growing, and later start importing more.
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Apr 12, 2019 04:43
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I end up making production nodes instead of shipping raws all over. Limestone always gets turned into cement on the spot, copper always gets turned into ingots and then wire (and then sometimes cables) on the spot before getting moved out, iron gets turned into ingots and then later materials on the spot OR shipped halfway to the coal mines to get smelted into steel. The only products I'm actually making close to my hub are the latest-tier products, and I move those out closer to their mining sources as they become mid-tier products.
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Apr 12, 2019 06:05
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Evilreaver posted:Infinite veins are fine as long as demand continues to rise through the game. Eventually you need to tap more veins to keep production growing, and later start importing more. Infinite veins are necessary as long as the map is finite. This isn't the kind of game where you want to have the potential of running out of available iron.
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Apr 12, 2019 08:01
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Cobbsprite posted:I end up making production nodes...
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Apr 12, 2019 10:53
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I think veins shouldn't come in clumps of 4 and most should be average/poor with rich ones being quite rare. I also think they should tap out eventually and only provide a trickle after that. Alternatively, make most veins average with a few rich ones, and let them drop in quality over time until all tapped deposits are poor. This encourages constant exploration and exploitation to maintain throughput and increases the value of efficiency upgrades in the late game.
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Apr 12, 2019 11:04
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After making the trip to my first oil patches, 2.5km from my base, I decided I didn't want to bother trying to set up a truck through all of that, so I made a big skyway out of foundation, all the way back to my base. It took me quite a while because I was constantly running out of foundation. When I then tried to speed it up by starting the skyway from my base and connect up with the part I already built from the oil, it turned out the foundations didn't align so I had to redo half of it. Now that it's complete though, it got me thinking of trying the following setup. Make a big multi story factory somewhere in the middle of the map that makes everything and transports it to a nearby warehouse. It would have a bottom floor with ore brought in through massive skyways from each cardinal direction. All of those with trunks splitting off, maybe with trunks of their own, until every last vein is connected, every miner overclocked and connecting to rows of stacked conveyors, one stack for each ore type. I really like the idea and feel like this would make the switch to trains when they get here eventually a lot easier. The biggest problem I have with it though is that it’s going to take a lot of planning to make sure every belt is fully maxed out before getting to my base. Knowing all your ore input belts have 450 ore p/m makes setting up your smelters/foundries a lot easier. The question is how do I make sure I am filling out every belt. 3 impure veins fill 1 belt, 2 normal veins fill 3 belts and 1 pure vein is actually limited by the belt, but sometimes you get 3 pure veins in one spot and other times it's 2 impure veins. Seems like a fun project to keep me going until we get Quartz and Sulfur at the end of the month though.
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Apr 12, 2019 11:55
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trucks are worse than conveyer belts in satisfactory the same way trains are worse than belts in factorio. yes, you can technically achieve more throughput by running 12 belts in parallel across miles of map, but why would you want to? just set up a route and put that time and those resources to better use somewhere else
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Apr 12, 2019 12:42
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Demiurge4 posted:Alternatively, make most veins average with a few rich ones, and let them drop in quality over time until all tapped deposits are poor. This encourages constant exploration and exploitation to maintain throughput and increases the value of efficiency upgrades in the late game. I like the idea of fewer pure nodes. Have those never degrade but normal and impure degrade at different rates. And then sandbox mode with no degrading.
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Apr 12, 2019 14:52
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Just to add another neat trick with trucks, you can place additional loading stations along existing truck routes and they load instantly as the truck drives by. Makes it very convenient to build a literal bus that connects various mid-tier production nodes like quickwire and plastic back to a main construction facility across long distances. 24 slots of finished goods is a huge amount of capacity. You do need smart sorters on the receiving end though.
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Apr 12, 2019 14:52
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ninjewtsu posted:trucks are worse than conveyer belts in satisfactory the same way trains are worse than belts in factorio. yes, you can technically achieve more throughput by running 12 belts in parallel across miles of map, but why would you want to? just set up a route and put that time and those resources to better use somewhere else I don't quite get this, I mean the material can only exit the production facility/enter the truck station as fast as a belt can take it so how is a truck faster then a belt?
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Apr 12, 2019 14:56
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socialsecurity posted:I don't quite get this, I mean the material can only exit the production facility/enter the truck station as fast as a belt can take it so how is a truck faster then a belt? What he’s saying is belts can be faster because they’re parallelizable so in theory they’re always better but with trucks or trains or whatever the benefit is you don’t have to do insane parallel belting for literal kilometers. One thing that factorio does for trains that hopefully satisfactory also does is parallel load/unload which in fact does make them more efficient than belts, period
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Apr 12, 2019 15:41
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Debugging ball of doom.
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Apr 12, 2019 16:12
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Explaining it would be telling
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Apr 12, 2019 19:23
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Phobeste posted:What he’s saying is belts can be faster because they’re parallelizable so in theory they’re always better but with trucks or trains or whatever the benefit is you don’t have to do insane parallel belting for literal kilometers. So you what stack multiple truck stations where does the inputs on those come from? Like I belt my oil back to my base, it produces 240 minute out of the machine the belt can handle 450 minute how would a truck get that back to my base faster then the belt does?
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Apr 12, 2019 22:11
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I guess the question is, how much material does it take to build 2-3 km of level 4 belt? And would you rather build that belt than setting up one or a few trucks?
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Apr 12, 2019 22:23
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socialsecurity posted:So you what stack multiple truck stations where does the inputs on those come from? Like I belt my oil back to my base, it produces 240 minute out of the machine the belt can handle 450 minute how would a truck get that back to my base faster then the belt does? Nobody said it would transport it faster, just that it would be faster to set up. But for the record, a tractor can very easily outpace a mk4 belt unless it's a really long route. If you have a 5 minute round-trip (~2km, obviously terrain dependent), that's 450*5=2250 items. That's less than a tractors capacity. A truck has almost twice that, and also drives faster. On a 5 minute round-trip a truck can transport 960 items per min assuming a stack size of 100, and in most cases the truck route will be a lot shorter than that. That said, yeah setting up truck routes is a bit tedious, especially since you have to record the whole round trip, and the fact that throughput is hard limited at the fastest belt you have available means it's often more scaleable to just make a huge long conveyor belt that you can quickly expand as needed, the only catch being that you need to have good production of the belt ingredients already happening. They really need to make it so that truck stations can have more input to change that math. But who knows, maybe trucks will just become obsolete when trains get added.
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Apr 12, 2019 22:28
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Taffer posted:Nobody said it would transport it faster, just that it would be faster to set up. You might be able to get the truck to outpace the belts by setting up two (or more) stations at each end. Have both fed by mk4 belts and get the truck to wait for half an inventory each at each end.
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Apr 12, 2019 22:37
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socialsecurity posted:So you what stack multiple truck stations where does the inputs on those come from? Like I belt my oil back to my base, it produces 240 minute out of the machine the belt can handle 450 minute how would a truck get that back to my base faster then the belt does? So I’m comparing it to factorio where you can set up buildings alongside a train stop to (un)load the trains, because each train car has a certain length and you can add more cars. So you can have something like 8 belts flowing into or out of each of your N cars, and this is infinitely expandable by adding more cars, since that adds both more capacity and more load throughput to trains. Then you can have more trains running on a route etc etc. obviously you can’t do this with sf trucks, but what I’m saying is this is a thing other games have done and hopefully sf follows suit when adding trains
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Apr 12, 2019 22:41
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socialsecurity posted:So you what stack multiple truck stations where does the inputs on those come from? Like I belt my oil back to my base, it produces 240 minute out of the machine the belt can handle 450 minute how would a truck get that back to my base faster then the belt does? stop thinking in terms of "is a truck better throughput" and start thinking in terms of "how much am i spending to track conveyer belts for miles when a single truck could do an ok job too" a truck is generally the throughput of a single belt (technically "at best" but you'd have to be going quite the distance to make it worse than a single belt) but massively less expensive to set up. Phobeste posted:So I’m comparing it to factorio where you can set up buildings alongside a train stop to (un)load the trains, because each train car has a certain length and you can add more cars. So you can have something like 8 belts flowing into or out of each of your N cars, and this is infinitely expandable by adding more cars, since that adds both more capacity and more load throughput to trains. Then you can have more trains running on a route etc etc. obviously you can’t do this with sf trucks, but what I’m saying is this is a thing other games have done and hopefully sf follows suit when adding trains in factorio, it's 12 unload points per train car, and unless you've modded in loaders you're using stack inserters to unload which means you're coming out with less than 6 belts of output per traincar (each stack inserter only fills 1 side of the belt, so 6 belts and also there's gaps when the inserters reach back to grab another load so it's <6 belts necessarily). technically, you could achieve as good or better throughput by running 6*[number of traincars] belts across your map instead of running railroad tracks, but almost no one does that because that would be insane. yet this thread seems to be full of people heartily recommending you do the equivalent in satisfactory
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Apr 12, 2019 23:00
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Except you're also producing and managing fuel for trucks, and there are just more logistical components in making a vehicle pattern that works well instead of a simple conveyor line.
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Apr 12, 2019 23:07
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Cobbsprite posted:Except you're also producing and managing fuel for trucks, and there are just more logistical components in making a vehicle pattern that works well instead of a simple conveyor line. If I ever felt the need to truck to another kind of outpost I'd probably hook up my giant crate full of biofuel to the home base truck stop and never have to worry about it. The giant biofuel crate is fed by my trashcan where I dump all the wood and leaves I get while out and about and is constantly full, though technically not infinite so I'd have to worry about running the game for a realtime day without replenishing it. I can definitely imagine situations where, thanks to the terrain, it's an even bigger pain to set up a truck than an insane conveyor. But usually there are "roads" all set up for trucks that you can find with a bit of scouting between any two resource nodes so I have yet to run into such a situation. That's the real issue here. There's nothing wrong with conveyors once you set them up, but it's usually way easier and cheaper to set up a truck line, and it's a lot cooler so why not? I feel like there's some sort of weird logistical thinking going on here divorced from the reality on the ground. Like that person earlier who was complaining that hand crafting was more time efficient than automation early on, and you had to get however many machines going before it would be "worth it" or whatever. But I'd rather be having fun running around the woods looking for slugs, or actually making my factory than sitting at a crafting bench holding the mouse button. The advantage is not efficiency it's not having to worry about it. So basically: If setting up a truck route requires less effort*, the real value is in letting you get on with other parts of your factory and exploring and stuff, rather than just boosting sacred throughput. *This obviously isn't always the case. When it's not easier, it's obviously not better.
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Apr 12, 2019 23:24
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Cobbsprite posted:Except you're also producing and managing fuel for trucks, and there are just more logistical components in making a vehicle pattern that works well instead of a simple conveyor line. this is true in factorio too, yet for some reason it's still way smarter to use trains in that game. i'd love to know how the differences in game design have made trains the obvious long distance transport option in that game, yet trucks are something that satisfactory players don't see the need for.
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Apr 12, 2019 23:33
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Well part of it is that factorio maps are procgen and infinite but yeah it’s weird.
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Apr 12, 2019 23:38
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ninjewtsu posted:this is true in factorio too, yet for some reason it's still way smarter to use trains in that game. i'd love to know how the differences in game design have made trains the obvious long distance transport option in that game, yet trucks are something that satisfactory players don't see the need for. For one thing the distances in factorio can be much greater. And then resources are also not infinite, smacking down rail lines is significantly faster and cheaper than blue belt lines would be. Neither of those problems with belts exist in satisfactory.
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Apr 12, 2019 23:41
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Trains are much more easily expandable in Factorio. You can just slap another train on the same line and, with the right signals, double your throughput. You can't put multiple trucks on the same route in Satisfactory without going through and recording it again, and there's no signalling either; it's up to your route-planning skills to prevent a collision. These factors are probably why trains will still be relevant in Satisfactory once they're implemented, even while trucks exist.
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Apr 12, 2019 23:47
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I like my 2km tier 4 belts just because they serve as easy fast travel so if I'm out exploring I can bounce to my oil field and ride the belt back.
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Apr 13, 2019 00:03
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SF belts are much much cheaper than Factorio belts, particularly Express vs Mk4's. This makes long range construction more appealing in SF. Also, Rails are dirt cheap in Factorio.
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Apr 13, 2019 02:19
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Mark 4 belts are ridiculously fast, if you try using them as an expressway, if you jump you go FLYING.
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Apr 13, 2019 02:48
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I evened out the terrain along the route and set up a truck to bring my my oil from 1800m away. It did two deliveries and then disappeared from the track and now there's a vehicle icon on my compass way far away. Hassle.
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Apr 13, 2019 07:13
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